Man takes 17 bullets and still needs to be handcuffed? Why

[madman4570]

Guys,
Below is a link where a bad guy took 6 .40S&W bullets and 11 .223 bullets and still needed to be handcuffed?
How can it be a 180gr (.40S&W)only penetrated 1" even with a throat hit?? and 11 .223 hits??
I am wondering if bullets in Hardcast/FMJ/JFP etc. would have had same result???

Be warned this link shows graphic photos that might not be suitable for young viewers or faint of heart.

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-co ... ootout.pdf

[horsesoldier03]

your link is corrupt and wont open for me.

[kimwcook]

It opened for me. I'll have to check this out as currently we're carrying exactly the same type rounds. I need more information.

[madman4570]

your link is corrupt and wont open for me.

???????????
Ran a scan on it and it shows clean???????????

[86er]

LEOs need to treat everybody the same. If you are under arrest or in custody you get handcuffed. When they start picking and choosing who gets handcuffed problems arise. The problem could be an escalated use of force situation to an outcry from civil rights groups. If, as a matter of policy all persons in custody are handcuffed - period - the array of potential "problems" is virtually eliminated. The LEOs didn't choose to cuff him, he chose to be cuffed by his actions. That report is fairly old as I have seen it over a year ago. Since, Speer has changed the profile of the 180 gr Gold Dot. Whether the new load works better in actual applications I do not know but due to this and other encounters it was addressed by Speer.

[Streetstar]

That was one hardheaded kid --- Gold dots started to expand on the down coat evidently ?

Since this said it was an ambush of some sort , i wonder if it was some sort of suicide-by-cop scenario, but he was determined to take out as many as possible at the same time

[Mac in Mo]

Some things cannot be explained. Like the article stated, mindset, determination of an individual can be very powerful factors. Looking at his tats, this guy was no innocent schoolboy. He probably lived his life in such a manner that this was an inevitability, a self fulfilling prophecy.

As a former LEO, I have seen things that defied all logic. I have heard of and received other info on incidents such as this through training. In this very incident, you have two extremes for example. One of the officers was hit in the arm and taken out of the fight, yet the BG soaked up all those rounds with several hits that SHOULD have incapicitated him instantly, yet they did not.

I was surprised to see he was not on something other than THC.

All you can do is train as hard as you can. Practice as much as you can. Visualize scenarios and run them through your mind. Be determined. Because the BG's out there sure are.

To you guys still out there on the street. Be safe. Go home at the end of your shift. That is what you have to do.

Kevin

[O.S.O.K.]

One thing is still unclear to me. Just how deeply did the 40 short and weak rounds penetrate? The conclusions state that "it is impossible" for them to expand with 1" penetration - so how deeply did they penetrate?

And the .223 72 grain TAP ammo did poorly? Weird.

[madman4570]

LEOs need to treat everybody the same. If you are under arrest or in custody you get handcuffed. When they start picking and choosing who gets handcuffed problems arise. The problem could be an escalated use of force situation to an outcry from civil rights groups. If, as a matter of policy all persons in custody are handcuffed - period - the array of potential "problems" is virtually eliminated. The LEOs didn't choose to cuff him, he chose to be cuffed by his actions. That report is fairly old as I have seen it over a year ago. Since, Speer has changed the profile of the 180 gr Gold Dot. Whether the new load works better in actual applications I do not know but due to this and other encounters it was addressed by Speer.

Joe, Reason I even mentioned the handcuff stuff was I am just amazed the guy wasn't DOA and was breathing????

[Ray Newman]

From page 17 -- LEO ammunition testing:

"• Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier testing done previously for ammunition data CD.
• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal
performance.

From page 19 -- "Officers had to 'fight' assailant in order to get handcuffed."

From page 21-- "Lessons Learned":

"• Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively."

[Mike D.]

Pretty graphic morgue shots. The perp/assailant was deceased probably due to the aorta being penetrated. I have never been a fan of the .40, either. I carry a 1911 with 12 rds of my own loads, usually 185 HPs or hardball in front of 5.6 grs W-231.

[madman4570]

Holy cow you guys
How bout the one xray showing a big clear hole right through his spine
Plus all the other holes showing in xray the .223 made???
And the guys one arm/foot/ankle????????????

Guess I am a wimp
You have got to be kidding me!
That kel-Tec P32 for SD--------
And they had to (fight him in the end)
Wonder how many LEO's that took??????????
One word-----------------------WOW!

I am thinking of loading my .40's with 200gr hard cast! or just buying these----------
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... cts_id=210

[RustyJr]

They said the 223 TAP ammo did poorly. One round pierced and collapsed a lung and the other pierced the aorta. There were two different weight bullets used in the M4. 55 grain and 72 grain. They do not indicate how many of each weight were fired into the subject. I'm guessing it might not have been possible to determine because of the overpenetration or because of fragmentation of rounds. I'd be willing to bet that the 72 grain rounds dont achieve a high enough velocity out of the short M4 to reliably expand and that the rounds that hit the and stayed lodged in him were the 55 grainers. Has anyone here had experiance with the Hornady TAP ammo on game in different that would indicate this?


RustyJr

[C. Cash]

Incredible. I think that folks like Elmer Keith continue to be proven right over time. A well placed 250 Gr. Keith bullet moving at moderate velocity would most likely do the job on man or beast. If not, you've just got a very rare individual.

[KCSO]

Our insurance mandates that EVERY prisoner in transport be handcuffed of no coverage. An unconsious DWI sooud asleep still gets handcuffed all the way to booking.

[Nath]

I'm thinking give the police single shot pistols and long arms, they'll do better then.

N.

[handirifle]

I am becoming more and more convinced, that there is almost nothing better in a 223 than a 55gr softpoint, on anything other than varmints. Heavier bullets do not expand as reliably, and lighter ones explode too soon. The terminal shock resulting from the high velocity, expanding bullet, are hard to ignore.

As for the gold dots, I have as yet to switch to any type of TAP bullet for SD. I know the big concern of over penetration, but my biggest concern is under penetration, as was the case here, at least quite a bit of it.

For you LEO's, current and retired, how many REAL cases of injuries have you ever heard about from over penetration? Things like, the bullet went through the perp, then through the wall behind him, hitting an innocent person, or I guess worse case scenario, missing the perp, and blasting through the wall. Or are these bullets a solution to a problem that never really existed?

[williamranks]

.40 to the neck, no expansion.
.223 to the collarbone, no bone break.
.223 to the rib, no bone break.
.40's to lower spine, pelvis and hip bone, no bone break.
Think I'll go back to carrying the .357.

[adirondakjack]

I'm reminded of the infamous LA bank shootout. When we first saw the film, my dad opined, "ONE round apiece from a 4" .357 mag revolver fired from a rest by a man with a cool head would have ended it. Instead we have spray and pray, cops down, and one guy turned into a lawn sprinkler before he was finally dead.

[Griff]

Handcuffing is a matter of individual departmental policy. Most now require it.

...how many REAL cases of injuries have you ever heard about from over penetration? Things like, the bullet went through the perp, then through the wall behind him, hitting an innocent person, or I guess worse case scenario, missing the perp, and blasting through the wall. Or are these bullets a solution to a problem that never really existed?

1. 1st assailant had hostage by hair, holding a knife to hostage's throat... 2nd perp was behind 1st... shooter stated "... I didn't know that .44 Magnum would go right thru that 1st {insert racial slur here} and kill that 2nd one too!" Both perps were members of street gang, shooter was independent dealer that owed them money for drugs... round stopped in wall of residence behind assailants.

[El Chivo]

I'm reminded of the infamous LA bank shootout. When we first saw the film, my dad opined, "ONE round apiece from a 4" .357 mag revolver fired from a rest by a man with a cool head would have ended it. Instead we have spray and pray, cops down, and one guy turned into a lawn sprinkler before he was finally dead.

I remember the 2nd guy had to be shot in the foot or ankle and died from blood loss.

I go to that branch occasionally to use the ATM and there are still bullet holes in the brick wall behind where they were standing.

[Nobody]

.....

[piller]

Seems like the .357 is sounding better and better.

[O.S.O.K.]

Seems like the .357 is sounding better and better.

Or the 40 caliber equivalent in autoloader = 10mm. A 10mm with 180 grian xtp's or gold dots at 1300 fps would do the job exponentially better than those 40S&W.

I've been carrying a 9mm with 115 gr hp's... hmmm. They're moving about 1150 fps.

[FWiedner]

I'm not cetain that any of the ammo used performed other than as advertised and tested.

This is, more or less, simply an awkward application of the tools at hand.

[O.S.O.K.]

You mean the officers shot very poorly? That's what I got out of that report - placement is key.

[adirondakjack]

I'm reminded of the infamous LA bank shootout. When we first saw the film, my dad opined, "ONE round apiece from a 4" .357 mag revolver fired from a rest by a man with a cool head would have ended it. Instead we have spray and pray, cops down, and one guy turned into a lawn sprinkler before he was finally dead.

I remember the 2nd guy had to be shot in the foot or ankle and died from blood loss.

I go to that branch occasionally to use the ATM and there are still bullet holes in the brick wall behind where they were standing.

They shot him from under a car, basically sawed his legs off, then when he fell, dumped about 50 rounds into him for good measure, but he was not yet DEAD. He bled out while they ignored him, attending to the wounded officers. (no problem with that, just saying). But somewhere in that whole melee, if a cop with a "Highway Patrolman" woulda taken a shot from say 100 feet, while rested on a car roof, breath, hold, squeeze, see head go pop, lives and a case and a half of ammo woulda been saved.

[.45colt]

C Cash wrote.."Incredible. I think that folks like Elmer Keith continue to be proven right over time. A well placed 250 Gr. Keith bullet moving at moderate velocity would most likely do the job on man or beast. If not, you've just got a very rare individual."......Yep and You win TODAY.. .

[piller]

As far as tending to the wounded, by all means tend to any innocents and to the law enforcement before tending to the perpetrators. Just don't forget to tend to them so that someone unscrupulous who has a law degree can have a case and bring suit. Triage is a time honored method of deciding who gets first treatment, and priorities should be followed in a reasonable manner.

[Mich Hunter]

You mean the officers shot very poorly? That's what I got out of that report - placement is key.

Pretty much. IMHO--Judging from the photos, none of those shots were center mass. Majority were hits were in the chicken wings (arms & legs). I don't know what the situation was, but it looks like pray and spray. I will give it to that kid though, he had a high tolerance for pain.

Let me just ad my $.02 to something else. The 223 is a poor man stopper and has been for long time. A single kill shot (in my experience) is never normal. It takes multiple follow ups to get the job done on average. There is a reason why the DOD is trying to move away from it. Also, some people will buy anything without doing the research. Hornady TAP is garbage. If you look at the unbiased testing done with gelatin, the wound channel is poor and the bullet frags too quickly. Your not going to get a very good energy transfer. Another issue is TAP came out and folks were sold on it was designed not to over penetrate. Well, you can't have both. If your worried about over penetration, you shouldn't be using a 223 to begin with. Again, just my $.02

[243dave]

One center mass hit from the 223 and they wouldn't have had to handcuff him. Big game bullets in the 223 makes it a much better killer, the military and PD's ought to use them. My 2 cents.
Dave

[Mac in Mo]

The thing is is that there are so many things that are trying to be balanced out. Concessions have to be made. It doesn't always end up being a good thing for the end user. The cop on the street. He is the one who can be killed or injured due to failure of a mandated weapon or cartridge.

As was alluded to on a different thread, many cops are not gun people, I would say the vast majority. When I went through the academy I was amazed at the number. Out of a class of 46 who started, there were about five of us who had any real background in shooting. Two of us who I know of who even owned handguns before entering the academy. Think of that. Most saw it as an annoyance to be put up with to learn to shoot.

Some did OK and improved as they went through. We had some pretty good instructors with those blank slates.


Kevin

[RustyJr]

We can sit here and play Monday morning quarterback all we want. From what I read, if i remember correctly at least two of the officers were hit in the opening volley. Meaning they were returning fire after having already been hit themselves. One of them took a richochet to the forehead which means that he mostly likely had blood running down his face and possibly hampering his vision. The other was struck in the arm preventing him from firing his weapon. Its easy to criticize marksmanship while sitting in a safe home with no one trying to kill you. Regardless of how many rounds were fired or what the hit percentage was they followed one of the first rules in law enforcement . . . they went home at the end of their shift.


RustyJr

[rimrock]

I wonder if my .40 S&W 170 grain cast flat point going about 900fps would have done a better job on that perp?

rimrock

[handirifle]

Handcuffing is a matter of individual departmental policy. Most now require it.

...how many REAL cases of injuries have you ever heard about from over penetration? Things like, the bullet went through the perp, then through the wall behind him, hitting an innocent person, or I guess worse case scenario, missing the perp, and blasting through the wall. Or are these bullets a solution to a problem that never really existed?

1. 1st assailant had hostage by hair, holding a knife to hostage's throat... 2nd perp was behind 1st... shooter stated "... I didn't know that .44 Magnum would go right thru that 1st {insert racial slur here} and kill that 2nd one too!" Both perps were members of street gang, shooter was independent dealer that owed them money for drugs... round stopped in wall of residence behind assailants.

Well except for the "round stopped in wall of residence" part, looks like the 44 did a good job, but I see the point. Still, when we limit our troops to non expanding bullets, and the LEO's to TAP rounds that didn't expand at all in this case, seems to me it ought to be reconsidered. Note in the above example, not too many LEO's carry 44 mags. Especially since Clint Eastwood has retired from patrolling the streets Even he used a reduced load, he describes it in Magnum Force.

[KCSO]

22 lr rn lead went throught the back seat of a car and through the fat lady in the front seat and broke her bottle in the glovebox.

The worst one I saw was a round that went through a fellows arm and into the house behind him, through the wall and right over a crib with sleeping infant, again a mere 22 lr round.

I did a homocide once where 357 158's went through a fellow and into the floor under him and 1/2 way through the floor joists. The recovered bullet were deformed but had lost no weight and showed only minimal expansion. The bullets were fired at about 6 feet from a 6" revolver.

[KirkD]

We had a shoot out near here a year or two ago. The shooter killed one LEO immediately with a rifle. The partner LEO hit the shooter at least six times with no visible effect (40 S&W). The seventh round hit the shooter in the head from about 40 yards away which instantly killed the shooter. I think the LEOs were using Black Talon ammo. I got all this from another LEO and report it here as near as I can remember. What I recall for sure is my surprise upon hearing how many 40 S&W rounds the shooter soaked up with no visible effect. Jeff Cooper convinced me years ago to go with the 45 Auto and that is what I did. Your clip may not hold as many rounds but you won't need as many either.

[JerryB]

Kirk, you are right again, a .45 does not have to expand to twice it's size to do the job. It is big enuff to start with. That's why we carry them.

[GoatGuy]

Right you are, JerryB!!

[madman4570]

I wonder if my .40 S&W 170 grain cast flat point going about 900fps would have done a better job on that perp?

rimrock

I have to say(using my tiny knowledge on this)for that particular instance I would say yes.
Gotta believe the bullet striking the throat with that cast bullet surely would have penetrated more than 1"
Also the ones going through the down coat have to believe those cast bullets would have done better.
But still those xrays show some of those .223 rds you would have thought would have ended his struggle?

Now, remember though I have some data where it breaks down what calibers provide the best one shot stops and if I remember right the .40S&W has extremely good marks(actually better than the .357Mag
I think with 165gr JHP it scored 94% only to be bettered by the 45ACP with 96%
The ratings when those guns used FMJ bullets was much lower.
I will post that info further down when I find it!

I am tempted to get some hams and shoot several with JHP and then Cast????
Right now I only have Federal 180gr Hi-Shok and 180gr FMJ,but if I do it I will get some Double Tap cast loads.
Maybe even wrap two in an old down coat! But for right now my guns are getting loaded with Remington 165 grain Golden Sabers.


Here is the other data of an extensive test of various calibers how they stopped the bad guys!
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/h ... -power.htm

Check how poorly the .38 special did???(about like a .32ACP or .380ACP) Sure you want a .38 Joe???

That throat hit just keeps bugging me??? Could that have been a ricochet ?
I mean,come only 1" in a soft throat at like 20ft or whatever distance???? (if not don't want anything even close to those bullets)

[Cliff]

Some good comments. The picture (X-ray) of the bullet in the throat, may no tell all about it. Bullets do have a tendency to bounce(?) around inside a body when they hit. I have heard and seen pictures of the 22LR which did quite a bit of travel after hitting and going in several subsequent directions before coming to rest some distance from the entry. I am still looking for the bullet which will turn everything from the belt line up into a pink bloody mist when hitting it's intended target. No luck so far. At least in a handgun caliber. Interesting topic, shows the need to practice and be able to respond correctly when shooting at a bad guy. Too many people believe most people fold up when hit and quit fighting. Have a good weekend.

[madman4570]

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-cen ... ernometry/

Interesting!

[Old Time Hunter]

So why not a .44 Mag?

Interesting reading, do not remember basic training being told it would take 3-7 hits from the .223. 'Course that was back when Romney's dad was pushing the AR.

[kevin in nh]

The 180 gr 40 cal is junk....the 155 and 165 gr are much better IF you have to carry a 40.....we carry .357 125 gr in our Sig 229s and that round is awesome.......and in actual police shootings it scores very well. I have put down many a Deer and even a moose with it.....the Gold Dots are good and the Rem golden saber as good or better. A friend used both to determine (hunting) which was better for deer and he said the golden saber. Someone on PCP can withstand multiple hits and stay in the fight.....years ago I remember where an leo did a mvs on a possible bank robbery suspect and he jumped out and immediatly engaged the officer who shot him 6 times with a .41 mag 210 gr rounds....the perp went down but started to get up....officer reloads from the rear of the cruiser and hits him more times blowing hunks of asphault out of the road and it still took the officer and two military guys who stopped along with his K-9 chewing on him to end it.....and the *** lived! Center mass is taught but a head shot is an ender of all hostility.......and it was a sad day when we retired the 12 ga and went with the wood chuck rifle.......on two occasions there was a perp that brothers had there pistols pointed at the perps head who just screamed back FU FU until I racked the slide and put the drain pipe a foot from there head and said put you hands up our I will blow your FN head off......resistance ended immedatly

[madman4570]

9mm vs 40S&W vs 45ACP

9mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEEFn3nby8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2dJPeVo_7s
Ranger ammo in .40S&W


Tests for 45ACP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNSS7tomtw

[AJMD429]

As far as the 'should' part of handcuffing him - if someone is dangerous enough to have needed shot, either handcuffing him or shooting him point-blank in the brain, seem to be the only ways to be sure those nearby remain safe. The armchair critics who criticize the handcuffing probably wouldn't like the other alternative either...!

As far as the 'stoppability' part - it is amazing what adrenaline can do. Like the article linked to earlier in the thread says, if the central nervous system isn't disrupted, there still exists a potential threat, and CNS hits would be hard to count on. It sounds like most experts say to use a 'center mass' hit or two to at least 'distract' the bad guy, and those shots MAY put him out of commission quickly, or at least impair his ability to cause harm while you are dealing with any of his companions who are also a threat, but that at some point you need to re-assess the threat and then hopefully if still presenting a threat, he's at least going to be not as animated, so you CAN then direct your bullets to the CNS effectively.

Grim stuff, and for me as a non-LEO, kind of creepy to even discuss, but everyone who owns a firearm for protection really needs to wade through this thought process, because if they aren't prepared for the reality that they may have to kill or paralyze or otherwize cause horrific harm to someone in the process of protecting themselves or their loved ones, they need to stick with pepper-spray and prayer. It also is important to realize that the same grizzly harm you may NEED to cause the bad guy, could happen to an innocent person if you accidentally discharge your weapon, or if you do not hit what you're aiming at. THAT is a huge responsibililty, and not one to take lightly. It IS, however, part of what it takes to be a 'man' (and I'm using the genderless version of that word, because females who accept their duty to protect their children have to think about all this as well).

[KirkD]

Something to think about is the idea that it is easy to talk about shot placement here (or in the final page of that report) but when one or two men are shooting at you, and everything is moving, fine motor skills are out the window and adrenalin is roaring in your ears, shot placement might get a little sloppy. That is where it helps to have a bullet and caliber that will take up a bit of the slack.

I have been told by various people in the business that the 9mm or the 40 S&W is chosen because it is 'easier to handle' by the average LEO, especially female officers, than the 45 ACP. I do wonder about this. Are the decision makers really saying that their men and women should expect to place more hits on the shooter before he goes down as the price to pay for 'easier to handle'? That price may also include the shooter getting a few more rounds off than otherwise, and a few more LEO's wounded or worse, all because the firearm was 'easier to handle'. I would not like that kind of deal for myself or my people. Surely additional training can bring a person up to snuff on the 45 ACP. If my 15 year-old daughter can handle my 45 1911, I just cannot see why compromises are made for the professionals. But that is just my uneducated and unprofessional 2 cents.

[madman4570]

http://www.reloadersnest.com/article_40 ... ug3103.asp
40S&W FMJ against 30-06 for penetration!

[Mac in Mo]

@ Kevin in NH- The department that I was with, after I got out of the business to go into construction, dumped the Rem 870's. They now have the Beretta Storm , a 9mm carbine of some sort. The guys were not happy and still are not. I loved the 870 and had it out very frequently. We worked in a busy, violent part of town.

The really sad part is that the then Chief, in a move to be PC turned down the offer from Beretta to take the shotguns in on trade. They were all destroyed. Many hundreds of them. Makes me sick when I think about it.

Kevin

[FWiedner]

The one-shot stop data is interesting and somewhat enlightening, but I believe that is also of limited gravity since almost any round of any caliber might effect a one-shot stop if effectively placed.

As the OP seems to indicate, the one-shot gun-fight is the exception and not the norm.

When the last bullet finally finds some schlub's ON/OFF button, evidence seems to point toward it being pure LUCK.