Could tiny carbines be as good as pistols for Home Defense?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:13 pm

Guys,
Maybe I am all wet but it just dawned on me while carrying an extremely small carbine today(in this case the 4lb tiny Kel-Tec SU16B)
that grasping it firmly and holding it tight in the barrel only protrudes out very close in to the chest and also the back of the gun very close in as well.
Grasping in firmly I can't imagine how anyone even in a hallway situation could grab anything but about the muzzle and maybe a few inches of barrel before getting their hand blown off.
Would think even with a women this grip close in and tight with both hands would prove extremely effective.(I showed my brother this today how it works with this paticular gun)and now he is getting one!

Just wondering,have any of you guys tried this or wondered about this? It just feels good!

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:26 pm

I did a couple of pre sheep season scouting trips last summer in the Wind River Mountains.. looked long and hard at my 454 SRH and another 44 mag blackhawk, but decided on a Rossi SS 92 carbine in 44 mag. Easier to carry in your hand while hauling a heavy back pack.. a holstered gun would have been in the way, and not too accessible.. I enjoyed carrying the carbine.. and guarentee I could hit better with it than any handgun.. saw a sow and cub black bear on the way up, but they gave no trouble.. Les

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:52 pm

A shorter barreled shotgun is frequently recommended; but a reliable carbine for home defense is not that crazy an idea.

Unless one has practiced with his/her handgun to the point of mastery under some stress, e.g. range training or intense tactical practice for a good deal of time, there is the very real possibility of shooting wildly when the chips are down. And we often forget that when the adrenalin starts pumping, even the most seasoned shootist starts losing his fine motor skills and gross motor skills take over.

Weighing in that factor, and the longer sight radius afforded by a carbine, it might not be a bad idea to look into the ultra cheap but surprisingly reliable* (and reasonably accurate) ugly little carbines made by High Point, right here in the good ol' USA. They are offered in .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm - all pretty potent rounds with the right bullet and when fired accurately and quickly, as from a carbine. You can order a laser and one or two other tactical options.

See Wikipedia's overview of High Point carbines at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Point_Carbine

As I predicted to family and friends when our multi-trillion dollar foolishness started devastating our economy, home invasion robberies - by multiple armed assailants - are occurring again in the San Joaquin Valley and elsewhere. A shotgun is certainly a fine solution for a single assailant, but I like the idea of low recoil, quickly fired and at least somewhat aimable shots for urban defense. I am comfortable with my handguns; but then again I have qualified with one or the other at least every three months in a somewhat stressful scenario for a bit more than 38 years. For one who might be less practiced, the carbine using pistol calibers provides that solution, and with even a little more velocity and range, if necessary.

* Guntests.com and magazine, the "Consumer Reports" of the gun world that accepts no ads and pulls no punches, has consistently rated this somewhat unattractive little gun with high marks, and usually above its competitors for reliably firing all types of ammo - a must for home defense at relatively short ranges. Accuracy in each caliber has also proven acceptable for defensive ranges, per their tests. The only real problem I see with this piece is the expensive extra magazines.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:11 pm

Wow------------and even in a .45acp

I like it!
And under $275 (even shipped)Good grief

Talk about a deal!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:43 pm

There are a lot of light & handy carbines that are well suited to personal protection.
I have a Kel Tec Sub2000 in .40S&W.

It folds to 16.1" long and uses Sig P226 magazines. Other models take Glock, Beretta or S&W mags and it is available in 9mm or .40S&W.

I added the compact forend and a quad rail for a red dot sight.
Mine will keep its' shots on a 2litre soda bottle @ 100 yds., with the open sights and has been 100% reliable.

I don't use this as a house gun but it would be a good choice.
Btw, it has a built in lock to prevent unauthorized use, if so desired.

Jack

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:29 pm

For defense, I'd go with a full auto M4 first, then a 18" barrelled 12 gauge, 3rd a semi auto short barrelled carbine, and finally a 45 acp with an 11 round clip

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:40 pm

Ok, Rambos

I love my hearing (what little of it is left) and I will stick to either the low pressure not so loud 230gr FMJs out of the 1911, or now that I have a nice tactical 870, some reduced performance slugs or buckshot that will make a dull thud-like sound and deliver a full load of buck or slug at around 600fps....They be going down...down to ChinaTown, and I keep my hearing, sort of.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:52 pm

Deleted

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:59 pm

About the last thing I do anymore is lay awake nights thinkin about HD but given the choice I'll take a shotgun or pistol caliber carbine over a handgun anyday. The length thing and guns getting grabbed is as much of an internet myth as anything IMO.

LK

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:04 pm

BlaineG wrote:Ok, Rambos I love my hearing (what little of it is left) and I will stick to either the low pressure not so loud 230gr FMJs out of the 1911, or now that I have a nice tactical 870, some reduced performance slugs or buckshot that will make a dull thud-like sound and deliver a full load of buck or slug at around 600fps....They be going down...down to ChinaTown, and I keep my hearing, sort of.

That's what I like about my .45 Colt ('Cowboy' loads) Rossi 'Night Scout' - with the light and laser it can be shot from the hip or whatever position, and the Burris Fastfire is impeccable. The Rossi's 'iron' sights are there and visible for 'backup' as well, though chances of both the LaserMax and Fastfire failing at once are infintesimal.

I used to think an AR-15 was the ideal home-defense gun, and though I think it's nice to have one around, I'd NEVER want to discharge one inside, and even outside without hearing protectors, I'd expect permanent damage if I ripped off a full magazine. If ten rounds of .45 Cowboy loads isn't enough to stop whatever is after me, I really doubt 30 rounds of .223 will do much better.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:09 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Ok, Rambos I love my hearing (what little of it is left) and I will stick to either the low pressure not so loud 230gr FMJs out of the 1911, or now that I have a nice tactical 870, some reduced performance slugs or buckshot that will make a dull thud-like sound and deliver a full load of buck or slug at around 600fps....They be going down...down to ChinaTown, and I keep my hearing, sort of.
That's what I like about my .45 Colt ('Cowboy' loads) Rossi 'Night Scout' - with the light and laser it can be shot from the hip or whatever position, and the Burris Fastfire is impeccable. The Rossi's 'iron' sights are there and visible for 'backup' as well, though chances of both the LaserMax and Fastfire failing at once are infintesimal.

I used to think an AR-15 was the ideal home-defense gun, and though I think it's nice to have one around, I'd NEVER want to discharge one inside, and even outside without hearing protectors, I'd expect permanent damage if I ripped off a full magazine. If ten rounds of .45 Cowboy loads isn't enough to stop whatever is after me, I really doubt 30 rounds of .223 will do much better.

With home invasions on the rise nation wide and the increase in armed multiple assailants, I'm thinking that 30 rds of M1 Carbine ammo instantly available if needed is something to consider.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:43 pm

What John said & + 1 for the M1 carbine w/ hollow points.. 357 power.. & there are options too..

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:27 pm

BlaineG wrote:Ok, Rambos I love my hearing (what little of it is left) and I will stick to either the low pressure not so loud 230gr FMJs out of the 1911, or now that I have a nice tactical 870, some reduced performance slugs or buckshot that will make a dull thud-like sound and deliver a full load of buck or slug at around 600fps....They be going down...down to ChinaTown, and I keep my hearing, sort of.

I'm with you Blaine. Low noise and low flash are a good thing, at night.

plstktnkr2 · Post by **plstktnkr2** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:45 pm

My "home defense" weapon of chioce is a 1939 K98k with a bayonet, a walther p-38 in the crack of my butt and 2 dogs. I dont think anyone is gonna grab ANYTHING!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:16 pm

BlaineG wrote:Ok, Rambos I love my hearing (what little of it is left) and I will stick to either the low pressure not so loud 230gr FMJs out of the 1911, or now that I have a nice tactical 870, some reduced performance slugs or buckshot that will make a dull thud-like sound and deliver a full load of buck or slug at around 600fps....They be going down...down to ChinaTown, and I keep my hearing, sort of.

Blaine, I keep a set of Pro Ears electronic muffs right next to my 1911. In addition to saving what hearing I've got left, it lets me hear things I normally wouldn't. My wife thought it was silly til she tried them one night. I figure since she'll likely wake first, she'll have put them on and I'll wake up to the report of her .38 spl.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:27 pm

Let's not forget that they make AR15 carbines in 9mm and .40 S&W also. Excellent choices for home defense but almost certainly heavier than an M1 Carbine.

What's not to like about an M1? They're ridiculously light. Fun to shoot. Accurate (when compared to the rest of the guns being discussed here save our good old lever guns). And as mentioned, with soft point ammo they would be lethal as heck vs. human targets in your house.

I have two Hi-point carbines and they run just fine. Planet of the Apes guns.

'Course there's always the Suomi M-31 and a full drum mag or a 50 round coffin mag!

Hard to stick and move with it though - dang thing weighs like a Tommy gun. HEAVY.

Oly

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:52 pm

jeepnik wrote:Blaine, I keep a set of Pro Ears electronic muffs right next to my 1911. In addition to saving what hearing I've got left, it lets me hear things I normally wouldn't. My wife thought it was silly til she tried them one night. I figure since she'll likely wake first, she'll have put them on and I'll wake up to the report of her .38 spl.

Just tell her not to wake you unless she needs help moving the bodies...

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:28 pm

I prefer a handgun for the ease of manipulating door knobs and light switches as well as holding my surefire in the other hand. However a pistol caliber carbine would be nice for someone who is not proficient or is uncomfortable with a handgun. If we are talking about those in current production and low price I'd opt for the keltec in 40S&W using Glock magazines. If we are talking those that have been made in the past, it would be the Police Carbine that Ruger used to make. I'd opt for it in 40S&W as well. The thing I liked about the Ruger carbine is that handling seemed similar to an M1 carbine but in a more popular and easily available caliber.

RustyJr

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:50 pm

RustyJr wrote:If we are talking those that have been made in the past, it would be the Police Carbine that Ruger used to make. I'd opt for it in 40S&W as well. The thing I liked about the Ruger carbine is that handling seemed similar to an M1 carbine but in a more popular and easily available caliber.

For whatever reason, those never got much press, but they seemed like solid little guns. The first one I saw I thought was just an M1 Carbine with a synthetic stock, until I took a closer look, and saw the integral Ruger ring bases. I wish they'd have made them in .45 ACP...!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:29 am

The Ruger PC carbines look nice but are about as handy as a concrete fence post.
They have a great honkin chunk of steel in the forend & fastened to the breechblock to retard movement until the pressure drops to a safe level.
It's the same as the old Wimchester 351 & 401 SLR carbines.

The Ruger is not a light, fast handling gun. I had one in .40 cal for a while.

The M1 carbine would be a much better choice.

Jack

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:25 am

Carbine conversion unit. CCU. Turns your 1911 or glock into a very handy carbine.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/

vonfatman · Post by **vonfatman** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:54 am

I too like the M-1 Carbine. However, if I was going to use that as my home defense gun, I'd buy a beater (in appearance only) and keep my nice one in the safe. I'd not like handing my nice carbine over to the police to be banged around the evidence room. 20-30 rounds is a nice option if multiples appear in your home.

Bob

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:04 am

Getting some great info guy's-------------------THANKS!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:23 am

wolfdog wrote:Carbine conversion unit. CCU. Turns your 1911 or glock into a very handy carbine.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/

The beauty thing about those is... no Paper. Get yourself an 60%/80% 1911 frameand do the build yourself and you've got something really handy with no antigun/gooberment trackability.

http://www.tanneryshop.com/cgps_1911.html

Me likey.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:34 pm

I can not imagine what a 223 fired in a hallway would do to my ears. I've fired a short-barelled 357 with full loads without ears in the middle of an eleven acre field and I dang near dropped the sixgun. Forty-five, no big deal.

Cat

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:36 pm

Catshooter wrote:I can not imagine what a 223 fired in a hallway would do to my ears. I've fired a short-barelled 357 with full loads without ears in the middle of an eleven acre field and I dang near dropped the sixgun. Forty-five, no big deal.

Cat

Catshooter brings up a very real concern - your ability to hear, especially in a closed environment.

If you are being attacked or are in any type of tactical situation, don't you want to hear what is going on around you? Now, before somebody pipes up and says that there is not that much difference tactically:
Many years ago, as a deputy sheriff with an agency that allowed you to carry any reasonable weapon you could qualify with, I fired my .357 (using Super Vels) in a situation that found me behind the fender of a truck. Just the bounce back from the barrier partially deafened me, at once. I could not hear normal speech from a few feet away, and my ears rang for several days. My two partners had .38's and had no apparent problem. Remember, in a real life situation, you aren't wearing ear muffs. For two weeks afterword (or more), I would swear that everybody was lisping!

I switched to a 1911 type .45 ACP and carried it until I had to switch to the 9mm for a while with a new agency, and then happily back to the .45 ACP as 9mm shootings showed disappointing results in stopping power (the FBI Miami Massacre). The 9mm and the .40 SW both use high pressure and high speed to achieve their defensive goals. The .40 SW in particular is also a great defensive round, but it will deafen you just like a .357 with its high frequency crack. And as an aside, there appears to be concern with some handloads rupturing the pistols like the Glock that don't completely shroud the cartridge. Not so with the lower pressure .45's.

Ever since that shootout, I have greatly favored the .45 caliber with its high impact at low pressure. My regular concealed carry (now that I'm retired) is a .45 ACP Colt 1911 Series 70 Mk IV with a Crimson Trace laser grip on the side of the hand grip. It is great during the day, and amazing at night. And it's pretty cheap to reload.

I recall working on some home invasion robberies in which the team of perpetrators would first jack themselves up with cocaine, and then violently beat the victims. There have been other invasions in my state where this practice was present. We know that cocaine is a pain killer; and I guess you'd call it a depressant. The Phillippines had Moros, also fortified with cocaine, attacking our soldiers and their .38's with apparent impunity. But I would think that two or three quick taps of a .45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr. round (or similar load) from a carbine, even reasonably placed, would likely make short work of the most adrenaline charged homicidal attacker.

I like the tremendous portability of a large caliber handgun. But for the reasons above, I have from time to time entertained the thought of purchasing the aforementioned Point Blank carbine, with its laser option, in .45 ACP caliber.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:51 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
wolfdog wrote:Carbine conversion unit. CCU. Turns your 1911 or glock into a very handy carbine.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
The beauty thing about those is... no Paper. Get yourself an 60%/80% 1911 frameand do the build yourself and you've got something really handy with no antigun/gooberment trackability.

http://www.tanneryshop.com/cgps_1911.html

Me likey.

Hmmmm... "Not legal for sale in California."

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:46 pm

On the noise factor --- My recent trip to an indoor range with a couple of new 357's (detailed in another thread recently) gave me a headache --- doubled up, plugs then muffs and the noise was still enough to start getting to me after a while , and was giving me a headache while there
I switched to 38's eventually but the 38 loads i had were less accurate than my 357's so i packed it up and went home

My perception of the 357's was that they were far louder than even my Glock 20 (10mm) ---- i definitely do not want to shoot anything inside without ears

That said, i like the idea of a carbine for my particular home --- i have an "open concept" floorplan without a lot of nooks and crannies, as well as some porch areas --- plus when i reach for a firearm in the middle of the night, there is a far better chance that it will be for a coyote rather than a 2 legged predator, so i like a long gun as a primary.
On the flip side, i have a friend with a smaller house and lots more nooks, crannies and tighter hallways --- i'd stick with the handgun there

I have my Marlin 94 44 mag by the bedside now with aforementioned Glock 10mil close at hand as well but i am waiting on paperwork to come through for a "can" for the firearm pictured below --- no way in heck i would shoot it indoors and the resulting fireball would likely torch my place at the same time, but with the suppressor, it should be manageable and effective with frangible ammunition. This little firearm (its really not a true pistol, and not really a rifle either ) has been with me for 17 years with the same barrel, bolt and upper receiver and has enough rounds downrange that i trust it will go bang when i need it to --- thats something else i think is important, your "bump in the night" gun has to be familiar enough for your training to kick in and operate effectively in the dark rather than fumbling around with a safety you may not be used to or something like that
I know this little "half carbine" is not everybody on this board's cup of tea, but remember i did say i have a Marlin 44 Mag in use now

note: the bipod doesnt stay on it -- that would be comical

-- i used it to shoot from the bench to see what it would lay down at 50 yards with the flip down back up sights --- since the firearm is over 26", the vfg is also legal if anyone was curious

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:24 pm

Streetstar wrote:On the noise factor --- My recent trip to an indoor range with a couple of new 357's (detailed in another thread recently) gave me a headache --- doubled up, plugs then muffs and the noise was still enough to start getting to me after a while , and was giving me a headache while there
I switched to 38's eventually but the 38 loads i had were less accurate than my 357's so i packed it up and went home

My perception of the 357's was that they were far louder than even my Glock 20 (10mm) ---- i definitely do not want to shoot anything inside without ears

That said, i like the idea of a carbine for my particular home --- i have an "open concept" floorplan without a lot of nooks and crannies, as well as some porch areas --- plus when i reach for a firearm in the middle of the night, there is a far better chance that it will be for a coyote rather than a 2 legged predator, so i like a long gun as a primary.
On the flip side, i have a friend with a smaller house and lots more nooks, crannies and tighter hallways --- i'd stick with the handgun there

I have my Marlin 94 44 mag by the bedside now with aforementioned Glock 10mil close at hand as well but i am waiting on paperwork to come through for a "can" for the firearm pictured below --- no way in heck i would shoot it indoors and the resulting fireball would likely torch my place at the same time, but with the suppressor, it should be manageable and effective with frangible ammunition. This little firearm (its really not a true pistol, and not really a rifle either ) has been with me for 17 years with the same barrel, bolt and upper receiver and has enough rounds downrange that i trust it will go bang when i need it to --- thats something else i think is important, your "bump in the night" gun has to be familiar enough for your training to kick in and operate effectively in the dark rather than fumbling around with a safety you may not be used to or something like that
I know this little "half carbine" is not everybody on this board's cup of tea, but remember i did say i have a Marlin 44 Mag in use now

note: the bipod doesnt stay on it -- that would be comical -- i used it to shoot from the bench to see what it would lay down at 50 yards with the flip down back up sights --- since the firearm is over 26", the vfg is also legal if anyone was curious

Doug,
Details on that gun

Very cool-------------so it is legal without a CCW say in NYS???????????????
How bout whats on the end of that barrel, wow!
Looks like a cut down AR15?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:37 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:
wolfdog wrote:Carbine conversion unit. CCU. Turns your 1911 or glock into a very handy carbine.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
The beauty thing about those is... no Paper. Get yourself an 60%/80% 1911 frameand do the build yourself and you've got something really handy with no antigun/gooberment trackability.

http://www.tanneryshop.com/cgps_1911.html

Me likey.
Hmmmm... "Not legal for sale in California."

And this is surprising in what way? But then, what's "legal" got to do with it?

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:00 pm

madman4570 wrote:[Doug,
Details on that gun
Very cool-------------so it is legal without a CCW say in NYS???????????????
How bout whats on the end of that barrel, wow!
Looks like a cut down AR15?

MAdman,

a short barreled AR15 is exactly what it is -- i hesitate to call it a pistol but technically thats what it is considered ---
It is a full length carbine buffer and the tube is longer than most of the pistol "kit guns" out there -- so it has reliability like a carbine , but you cannot attach a buttstock to it. Barrel is 10.5" and it has a low profile gas block that is concealed by the slighly longer than normal handguard --
-- The device on the end is from Noveske and its nicknamed a "flaming pig" -- it does nothing to quiet down the decibel level, but on short barreled rifles/pistols (barrels under 12") - it helps move the shockwave and concussion forward of the shooter so it doesn't punish your ears as bad.

The BATF now considers "pistols" that are longer than 26" to be in a "not readilly concealable" category , but i don't know how that would apply in NY for CCW ?? --- If there was a loophole that allowed it, i would carry a copy of the document rolled up and stowed somewhere nearby anytime i had it (i do this anyway also as the gun has a forward hand grip) --
I hate to say it, most of the rural Oklahoma police officers i have had dealings with are far more likely to just say "nice piece" and keep on writing me a speeding ticket or whatever, rather than nit-picking the specifics of a firearm unless it is blatantly illegal --- i have heard that attitude is the exact opposite on the East Coast though

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:38 pm

Thanks, Good stuff Doug
Dude, you have some very cool guns!

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:54 am

I have one of the old Marlin 9mm carbines that uses S&W M-59 magazines. It has always been reliable for me and the longer barrel definitely quietens the noise.

Oh. I sincerely doubt the Filipino Moros were using cocaine unless they were distilling it from Coca-Cola.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:35 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: And this is surprising in what way? But then, what's "legal" got to do with it?

I hear your sentiment, brother. There are some bad laws on the books. But remember that the sane folks in my upside down state cannot readily purchase it; and if they use it for self defense in anything other than a wilderness/Katrina Disaster scenario, questions will be asked and they will most likely get arrested. It's pretty tough to protect your loved ones from behind bars.

And the more I think about your thread, MadMan, the more I'm talking myself into making the move to purchase that Hi Point critter gitter, even though I am pretty comfortable with my beloved 1911 .45. It's legal, it shares .45 ACP loads with my handgun, it doesn't deafen you with its low pressure rounds and its muzzle being even further away from ears - and it is affordable.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:13 pm

I usually stick with the .38Spl / 12ga House Combo, but have a few alternatives.

While not as as new and shiny as others, I have this handy and believe it is entirely up to the job if required:

Marlin Camp 45. .45ACP, NcStar variable-intensity Red-dot sight, Choate folding stock, 7-15 round magazine capacity, and those magazines with work with any 1911.

It's 26" with folded stock, but can still be used.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:22 pm

Because I carry a Glock 22 in 40 S&W everyday I put this KelTc Sub 2000 together to go with it. It takes the Glock mags

And when folded fits in a laptop case.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:35 am

Hmmmm... "Not legal for sale in California."

So is anything that's really FUN, other than women and beaches...

FWiedner wrote:

I guess great minds think alike - I got one of those years ago when I really wanted a semiauto Uzi in .45 ACP, but couldn't afford one. I've been tempted to put my LaserMax + Fastfire-II 'Night Scout' on it, with a nice light on QD rings from a short piece of rail on the forearm. As a folder, it would potentially be a bit more compact inside the home.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:10 am

AJMD429 wrote:... I got one of those years ago when I really wanted a semiauto Uzi in .45 ACP, but couldn't afford one. I've been tempted to put my LaserMax + Fastfire-II 'Night Scout' on it, with a nice light on QD rings from a short piece of rail on the forearm. As a folder, it would potentially be a bit more compact inside the home.

I wanted a Thompson. When I got one, it was fun to shoot, but too big and heavy to serve any practical home or self-defense role. Sold it and replaced it with the Marlin. Equal fun, more utility, one-third the weight.

If I had my druthers and didn't have to pay off the BATFE and kiss their .gov behind to do it, I'd put a 10-12" barrel on it and suppress it.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:20 pm

FWiedner wrote:If I had my druthers and didn't have to pay off the BATFE and kiss their .gov behind to do it, I'd put a 10-12" barrel on it and suppress it.

An integrally-suppressed 16-1/2" one would be pretty cool, too. Pretty bizarre how our society thinks suppressing excess noise from firearms is somehow 'evil', and needs regulated and closely watched.

Even many gun owners are 'skeptical' about suppressors, I guess just because of the sheep-factor.

Even if they were only $5.00 and no regulations, I wouldn't suppress all my firearms, but if I had the choice, I would have them all equipped with a bird-cage 'flash suppressor', if for no other reason than to protect the crown.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 am

Yeah...rrrrright.

So one of my campfire brothers gets us interested in a rifle that one can't buy in California.

The two others suggest a nice looking carbine that really interested me; so I looked it up - and the Marlin is no longer sold at all...

Gimme a break, pals!

Well, I'm happy to report that the Hi-Point definitely is available and totally legal, and is shown in several models on Davidson's Gallery of Guns (online Gun Genie) - for a little over 3 bills.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:43 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:Yeah...rrrrright.

So one of my campfire brothers gets us interested in a rifle that one can't buy in California.

The two others suggest a nice looking carbine that really interested me; so I looked it up - and the Marlin is no longer sold at all...

Gimme a break, pals!

Well, I'm happy to report that the Hi-Point definitely is available and totally legal, and is shown in several models on Davidson's Gallery of Guns (online Gun Genie) - for a little over 3 bills.

Look on the bright side ! You can probably still build a version of my obnoxiously loud little AR-15 pretty easilly if you want !

- future hearing aid prescription not included tho
(i do wish someone made a reliable 45ACP upper conversion for the little beasts though --- sadly 9mm is about it for pistol caliber AR's unless one wants to go with a boutique brand without a track record)

Tumbleweeds II · Post by **Tumbleweeds II** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:28 pm

Better. Even the Duke used a '92 Winchester whenever he had the chance.

As for holding it near the muzzle, that's exactly how my father taught me to do it. He learned it guarding POWs in France in 1944.

When I lived in Kansas City, there was a crew of punks invading homes and hurting people. They tried it with an elderly couple, including an old man who had a .22 pistol on his belt and another on the end table. When he was done, the whole crew was on the floor nursing bullet holes. Put a smile on my face - who says there's no good news in the papers? So, you can use a .44 mag if you want, but you aren't unarmed if you choose to use a little less.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:47 pm

This is one subject i have a lot of experience in.

For three years, I crammed myself and squadmates into rooms, hallways, attics, hangars, bunkers, aircraft cockpits, cargo bays, vehicles, under vehicles, inside portapotties.... you name it we searched it, several thousand times.

Issued weapon being the M4 carbine. The civilian version is 1.5" longer and it's barely noticeable. Run with the stock fully collapsed (as I did in armor) or one click open (out of armor as I do now) an M4 carbine or equivalent (M1 carbine or any of the 16" leverguns) is basically the same length as a pistol in a standard Weaver/Iso stance. They provide a lot more power, usually a bigger mag, and are easier to hit with.

In the event of a 'gun grab' if the rifle is carried at the low ready (butt in shoulder muzzle down) a sharp rip to the rear, or step back and kneel can line the muzzle up to where something important to him is being covered. Chest, nuts, guts....he's hurting. Keep firing till he's unpeeled himself from the rifle.

If i was in CA, a M1 carbine, SKS or similar would do, or a .357 levergun with an XS front sight/ghost ring setup. Add a light and it's a handy package.

A pistol is first at hand in a hurry waking up but a carbine's not much further. Shotguns, run shorter-stocked (not all of us being 6'2) can do well untill they go dry.

As to going deaf..... I've burned off a mag and a half during an entry doing a force-on force exercise inside a concrete building. Another time, a 175 round burst of 7.62 from inside a bunker doing the same (ambush scenario playing OPFOR).

Barely heard a thing. The adrenalin gets going, you block it out. As someone else pointed out, electronic earpro for if you have the time. They do work, most modern tactical teams/special ops run them (Sordins) with the radio plugins.

This is not a new idea, in the old west a lot of fighting got done with rifles and shotguns before the pistols came out. I remember one Sheriff (odd name, think he was part Indian?) rode up on a houseful of bad guys. Started the fight with a Sharps, proceeded with a Winchester, when that went empty, he went to pistols.

Buried a lot of badguys that day.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:04 pm

MrMurphy wrote:This is one subject i have a lot of experience in.

For three years, I crammed myself and squadmates into rooms...

As to going deaf..... I've burned off a mag and a half during an entry doing a force-on force exercise inside a concrete building. Another time, a 175 round burst of 7.62 from inside a bunker doing the same (ambush scenario playing OPFOR).

Barely heard a thing. The adrenalin gets going, you block it out.

Good post. And thank you for serving, Mr. Murphy.

It is true that adrenalin causes tunnel vision and lowers perception of pain and other things.

However, I would have to guess that the carbine blast, further away from the unprotected ears, was not as noticeable; or were subsonic rounds used??

I have heard that business about adrenalin blocking out the noise for years, but it does not compute when it comes to losing your hearing in a time of crisis.

My experience was a shootout with the man who had just killed my partner and best friend, a deputy. The adrenalin was certainly flowing. But as my doctor pointed out in the ensuing days, it doesn't matter how much adrenalin you produce, the delicate eardrums and hearing mechanisms are not protected from concussion, which the .357 SuperVels (in a bounce back from a vehicle fender) produced at the time. I will have to stick with my personal experience, which affected me visibly for two weeks, and I had trouble hearing my Sheriff's instructions when he arrived on the scene.

My other experiences are anecdotal; where a couple of deputies I knew (with high velocity caliber handguns) fired inside a vehicle shooting out in training exercises. A couple forgot their ear muffs or knocked them off, and paid for it with ringing ears and pain.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:21 pm

An M4 with a 10" barrell and a selector switch would be hard to beat. I have a 42 round magazine for one which should take care or most problems. My M4 is semi only with a 16" barrell, so it's for me, the next best thing.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:34 am

Both of those exercises, we were using blanks because of the extremely sensitive nature of what we were working around. Even simunitions weren't allowed, so we used MILES (laser tag). Better than nothing.

I've known enough guys who swapped lead for real (ranging from SWAT cops with shotguns and subguns indoors, to my dad, Vietnam) who all confirm the auditory exclusion is happening. Yes, you'll take hearing damage (I have) but at the time, a lot of people just 'don't hear it'. Not everyone of course, but quite a few. I had quite a few 'interesting' days, but we never ended up firing a shot for real. Quite a few times it was down to trigger pressure and who flinched, but in the end, didn't have to.

I've got tinnitus in both ears from running machine guns and constantly being around jet engines. Even with Surefire earplugs (which block gunshots and other high pitched noises, yet allow mostly normal hearing) it can happen.

Electronic earpro is the way to go for the future, as well as suppressors, but if it comes down to it cranking off anything indoors is going to be loud, even a .38.

I've heard a .45-70 fired indoors, it wasn't fun even plugged.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:25 am

Guys,
The hearing thing indoors is very interesting.
Ya know honestly for home defense I really never gave it a thought.(If someone bad is in the house)loaded gun/strobe light (got it)everything else (maybe)

You guys got me thinking more about this???
Probably not bright but deer/bear hunting I don't take/wear any plugs.Also when I crank off the 7MM Mag at game(I don't even notice nothing but if the animal drops.what are the best plugs so I can hear everything but also protect me hunting.(without breaking the bank and without wearing the big head phone types? Same with seeing something bad that needs dispatching quick(grab 12ga boom)Plugs???---What plugs???

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:52 am

MrMurphy wrote:I've got tinnitus in both ears from running machine guns and constantly being around jet engines.
Electronic earpro is the way to go for the future, as well as suppressors, but if it comes down to it cranking off anything indoors is going to be loud, even a .38.

.

Me too, my left ear is almost deaf and produces "Ear gunk" at twice the rate of the right since i got out of the Army. Lots of concussive blasts and small arms fire. Even being behind one of the big guns when it lights off will hurt

madman4570 wrote:Guys,
I don't take/wear any plugs.Also when I crank off the 7MM Mag at game(I don't even notice nothing but if the animal drops.what are the best plugs so I can hear everything but also protect me hunting.(without breaking the bank and without wearing the big head phone types? Same with seeing something bad that needs dispatching quick(grab 12ga boom)Plugs???---What plugs???

Madman,
in an effort to help preserve the hearing i have, this year i wore electronic muffs in the woods for the first time --- they amplify outside sounds so much that wearing them is not a handicap and they do double duty by keeping my ears protected from wind at the same time.
I used a relatively inexpensive pair this year ($35 i think) , but am going to step it up to a better version for hunting and keep the cheapies for range use. They amplify small sounds, but when a loud noise happens, they block it somehow -- modern magic i guess

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:43 pm

For 'cheap and out of the way" Surefire EP3 and EP4 plugs won't amplify anything, and will cancel out gunshots, but that's it. You can still mostly hear while wearing them except while firing. I've shot an M240 requalification on a semi-enclosed range, and 5,000 rounds of 7.62 full auto over 2 hours under cover...i was the only shooter who could actually understand the rangemaster. All the other plugged guys kept yelling WHAT??????? But mine would unblock as soon as firing stopped.

Howard Leight makes some good sound amplifying/blocking electronic muffs that aren't bulky for about $65-70. Friend of mine (ex Army) wears them shooting and hunting, i'm picking up a pair soon.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:33 pm

Mr. Murphy, I agree with you.

I just disagree with the widely spread false notion that firing high frequency (high pressure) rounds does nothing to your ears because the adrenalin somehow protects you.

I don't want to mislead anybody, so I must clarify what was written:
Think about it - not noticing something (because of the effects of adrenalin in your bloodstream) is not related to damage done to the tympanic membrane or the delicate bone structure of the inner ear. So - adrenalin or not, if your ears are ringing, then during or immediately after a shootout, you cannot hear as well. That equates to "officer safety" or "survivability," depending upon your situation.

1) I didn't notice, or don't remember, the sounds of the shootout. And there was another brief time when my handgun was used, this time a .45; but I don't remember hearing its blast, either. I was again by a car, but I could hear after firing; although it was only one shot. Then, there were some firefights in Viet Nam where I fired an M-16 (5.56mm - .223) on full auto, a .50 cal M50 machinegun and an M-60 (7.62 - ".30 caliber") machinegun from an Armored Cavalry Assault Vehicle (ACAV), to name a few incidents. These didn't cause a lasting problem, if any; but that is a situation where the barrel was away from my ears and the pressure was dissipated into the open air, not inside a hallway or small room.

2) The two deputies I mentioned were in a training situation, so maybe the adrenalin wasn't flowing - or, the confines of a car were so extreme that anybody would have been affected; I don't know. I do know that this confirmed to me that if I had to defend myself from inside a car, the .45 ACP would be a much wiser choice, because it is not as intense at the muzzle as a .357. The .40 was never heard of back then; so I had no experience with that round. But working with my last (State) agency, we carried that excellent round. It is a good one, but it "screams" much more than the .45. I would not want to fire it in a tight space, too many times.

All I am wanting to share, without really having wanted to discuss stuff that is in the past, is that it disturbs me that so many folks, including law enforcement rangemasters I have known, are giving out false information: That adrenalin protects your ears - and HEARING ability - in a crisis when you need it the most. Sorry, that is absolutely, unequivocally untrue.

We have at least one doctor on this forum - AJMD. Let's see if he weighs in on the eardrum thing! I am going by what MY doc told me.

Why the long posting?? Because it would be a shame if somebody chose the wrong firearm to defend his family, and then was taken out because he could not hear somebody coming behind him. Perhaps a 10" carbine (or longer) will generally work in a house, because the barrel is far enough way from those precious hearing organs. But I would restate that if somebody pulls out his prized .357, 10mm, or .40 SW caliber handgun in a defensive situation in his home, perhaps he/she should try it out first in some old shed or abandoned building where it is safe to fire - and see what it does to his/her hearing for the next few days. Sure, lawmen practice shooting in gun houses with these calibers - but always with ear protection. That won't happen if somebody breaks down your door in the middle of the night. And, unless you practice the scenario around 100 times, I am not sure that in a crisis one will even think to reach for muffs AND a firearm when they are awakened by the noise of breaking glass or splintering wood, heart racing, adrenalin surging, and mind moving into "fight or flight" mode.

For me, I currently rely on my laser sighted (Crimson Trace) .45 ACP pistol. My backup is a .44 Magnum DA revolver with a .44 Special type load in a .44 mag case. Both are large caliber, lower pressure rounds, that still would hit like a ton of bricks. Since I have fired a fair amount of rounds through them over the years, I am quite comfortable with them inside the confines of my house, negotiating corners, and moving out of the way of danger, should that ever happen. Anyway, I hope that this little bit of information will help others to assess their defensive plans.