Snake Bit

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:57 pm

I got word that an old friend (whose ranch I lease for doves) got a call from his daughter who was bit by a rattler while picking squash. It got her on the lower thumb, and they drove an hour to get her to town. 10 units of antivenom in the E.R. and many more in the I.C.U. (3 days) and she is now in a private room following debridement of the wound. Her arm is swollen badly up to the armpit, and while out of danger, she is liable to suffer some loss of function the docs say.

This took place in West Texas, where we have lots of snakes, and folks learn from an early age to watch for em. A moment of inattention almost killed this nice lady.
You boys be on the lookout - you just can't tell where you might find one.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:02 pm

Ouch! Prayers up that she heals up quick.

For sure watch where you put your feet and hands snakes can get into about anything.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Prayers for her recovery and it doesn't mess her up too badly.

We have rattlers around here and it's constantly in my mind when I reach for something on the ground. I'm continually telling the wife to be thinking about them when she's outside. Plus, we have a ton of Blackwidows and they'll mess you up almost equally as bad.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:23 pm

octagon wrote:This took place in West Texas, where we have lots of snakes, and folks learn from an early age to watch for em. A moment of inattention almost killed this nice lady.
You boys be on the lookout - you just can't tell where you might find one.

The worst ones are usually found on a ballot...

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:49 pm

most of my encounters with rattle snakes ive found they dont
warn you, so dont belive the old saying they always warn
sounds like she had no warning, hope & pray for a good recovery

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:50 pm

Sorry to hear it. Hope she heals up well.

Know a guy that was snake bit, it about did him in. He said it took quite a long time before he was completely back to normal.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:39 pm

Under those conditions if she had a Sawyer Venom extractor at her immediate disposal and placed the large cup over that thumb and left it in the plunged mode until reaching the hospital(could have been a big difference)
For those that say they don't work on small non-large muscle areas such as hands/feet etc. tell that to my friend that is a ER Doctor in the surrounding area of Morris,Pa?
I do carry one of those with me while in woods!
They work very well for spider bites also(like brown recluse)

And if you dont think there is snakes there?
http://www.kellyplanet.com/engine/kelly ... -morris-pa

muddydog · Post by **muddydog** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:10 am

I am a Hematology Specialist and Blood Banker with extensive history in Snake Bite Trauma.

Almost every rattlesnake or copperhead bite I have dealt with has involved a Garden or Flowerbed.

LOOK before you step or reach!!

I did cut my teeth in venom therapy working in a Trauma Center close to a "Church of the Serpent".
those were the days.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:59 am

A friend killed a Puff Adder in his driveway this last week. Good sized one. They are among the most deadly in this part of the world and have about the fastest striking speed of any snake. They can strike to either side or in front.

I killed lots of rattlers over the years in Arizona ... had some close calls ... our prayers for her that she recover completely.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:14 am

Sorry to hear. Hoping for a smooth recovery.

Oly

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:01 am

A few years back I reach down to pick up an old rusty T-post and a rattler sung out. it was just a few inches from my hand. I must jumped higher that Michael Jordan my buddy said. I said "how do you know when I yelled to get my 45 you were high-tailing it down the road 50 yards away". He can't stand snakes. I went and got my colt and killed it myself. It was a big one.

mklwhite · Post by **mklwhite** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:47 pm

muddydog wrote: LOOK before you step or reach!!

Last year my wife was stepping off the porch just in front of me as we were walking into the front yard. When she stepped down I heard a noise and looked down before I stepped... It was a copper head that moved and a dry leave was what made the noise. Anyhow I killed that one right there. Pretty good size one. Anyhow the next day she was telling one of the people she works with about it and they said to watch out that copper heads tend to be in twos and the other will be looking for its mate. Well I never heard of that before and did pay it too much attention. Well, the following day after we drove home from work the other copperhead was waiting for us in our garage. My wife would have walking within inches of it (again) but for some reason I just happened to look that direction and spotted it. Killed that one right then and there. Anyhow we've been lucky and haven't seen another since... but my wife always slows down an looks off the porch before stepping off now.

JBledsoe · Post by **JBledsoe** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:33 pm

mklwhite wrote:
muddydog wrote: LOOK before you step or reach!!
Last year my wife was stepping off the porch just in front of me as we were walking into the front yard. When she stepped down I heard a noise and looked down before I stepped... It was a copper head that moved and a dry leave was what made the noise. Anyhow I killed that one right there. Pretty good size one. Anyhow the next day she was telling one of the people she works with about it and they said to watch out that copper heads tend to be in twos and the other will be looking for its mate. Well I never heard of that before and did pay it too much attention. Well, the following day after we drove home from work the other copperhead was waiting for us in our garage. My wife would have walking within inches of it (again) but for some reason I just happened to look that direction and spotted it. Killed that one right then and there. Anyhow we've been lucky and haven't seen another since... but my wife always slows down an looks off the porch before stepping off now.

Scary, huh? That's one of the reasons that we moved away from that country, snakes, ticks, chiggers, tornado's, and humidity.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:45 pm

Prayers for the young lady.

A good snake, it was truely him or me.

I won't normally kill a snake. Usually they can just be chased off with a well tossed rock or dirt clod. The only ones I've found get fiesty are the Mojave Greens. And naturally, they are a protected species. Killing one can cost you big time. The Feds would rather see a person die than a darned snake.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:40 pm

I hope that young lady will recover fully. I am not a snake hater but sometimes they have to go. A big rattler can really hurt you or your dog. I am very careful where I sit esp in the dark.

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:15 pm

Dave: That snake in your picture does not look dead. Its head seems to be perked up and not lifeless. Is that a trick pic? What kind of rattler is that, an eastern diamondback or a timber?

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:12 am

jeepnik wrote:Prayers for the young lady.

A good snake, it was truely him or me.
I won't normally kill a snake. Usually they can just be chased off with a well tossed rock or dirt clod. The only ones I've found get fiesty are the Mojave Greens. And naturally, they are a protected species. Killing one can cost you big time. The Feds would rather see a person die than a darned snake.

Yep, I lived in the Mojave for more than an few years. I had a good black lab that always went out in the back yard with my daughter when outside. On several occasions, she would go bizzerk and start barking while pushing my daughter out of the way and kept herself between my daughter and the snake until I got there. Of course, I ensured that the snake was "relocated" properly!

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:28 am

kaschi wrote:Dave: That snake in your picture does not look dead. Its head seems to be perked up and not lifeless. Is that a trick pic? What kind of rattler is that, an eastern diamondback or a timber?

I promise he's dead or I wouldn't be holding him! That is a timber rattler. We call them canebrake rattlers.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:02 pm

Prayers up!!! Glad this didn't turn out much worse!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:12 am

Dave wrote:I hope that young lady will recover fully. I am not a snake hater but sometimes they have to go. A big rattler can really hurt you or your dog. I am very careful where I sit esp in the dark.

That shot made me put on the danners for our hike instead of the low New Balance Hikers today?

Then the shots rangerider7 had of the snake nests?
Won't show the wife or she won't go!

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:42 am

Best thing I've found is a long handled hoe with a sharpened blade.
Makes a good walking stick too, if you don't mind explaining it every time you meet someone on the trail.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:45 am

Best thing I've found is a long handled hoe with a sharpened blade.
Makes a good walking stick too, if you don't mind explaining it every time you meet someone on the trail.
Other thing I learned is, once you pull the trigger on a handgun for one snake you'll never hear the next one rattle.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:46 am

madman4570 wrote:
Dave wrote:I hope that young lady will recover fully. I am not a snake hater but sometimes they have to go. A big rattler can really hurt you or your dog. I am very careful where I sit esp in the dark.

That shot made me put on the danners for our hike instead of the low New Balance Hikers today?
Then the shots rangerider7 had of the snake nests?
Won't show the wife or she won't go!

That is my hard headed daughter. She always wants to wear flip flops. I kept telling her that was not OK where we killed that snake. You can see she is wearing her boots in that pic. That dude made her a believer

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:13 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:
jeepnik wrote:Prayers for the young lady.

A good snake, it was truely him or me.
I won't normally kill a snake. Usually they can just be chased off with a well tossed rock or dirt clod. The only ones I've found get fiesty are the Mojave Greens. And naturally, they are a protected species. Killing one can cost you big time. The Feds would rather see a person die than a darned snake.
Yep, I lived in the Mojave for more than an few years. I had a good black lab that always went out in the back yard with my daughter when outside. On several occasions, she would go bizzerk and start barking while pushing my daughter out of the way and kept herself between my daughter and the snake until I got there. Of course, I ensured that the snake was "relocated" properly!

We'd start getting "snake" calls in spring. The pacific diamond backs weren't hard to deal with. A broom and a 5 gallon metal garbage can was enough. Just sorta sweep the snake into the can, turn it upright and put on the lid. We'd detour out into the desert on the way back to the firehouse and drop them off. The darned greens were just plain onery. We usually hit them with a quick blast from a CO2 extinguisher to disorient them then sweep them into the can. They'd be rattling and bang the inside of the can all the way out (way out).

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:10 pm

We used to live 2,000 feet up, in the Sierra's. Black Widows and ticks were a greater problem than venomous snakes. Widows were in every dark corner and seemed to be under every piece of wood, in the pile.

Hope the girl recovers without any major digital loss.

OJ · Post by OJ » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:15 pm

Snake stories come up a lot this time of year - many with panic which can cause over treatment. It is frequently noted that up to 20% of rattlesnake bites happen without any venom injected into the victim. There was a report from a hospital in Denver seeing more than average number of rattlesnake bites - they had a routine of marking both affected extremity (most rattlesnake bites being on extremities) and opposite extremity at bite site and every 10 cm toward the body and measuring circumferences every 1/2 hour - to determine if any swelling is going on as a result of severity - or lack of - resulting from injection of venom. Reason being - administrating anti-venom is not without dangers of its own and, if not needed - avoided risking the life of the patient.

I had an interesting experience some 40 -50 years ago somewhat related. Münchhausen syndrome is manifested in patients showing up claiming onset of some disease so they could be admitted to hospitals and revel in getting lots of treatment for such. Taking ER call for surgical emergencies one night, I was called to see a young male with four punctures on his lower leg. He related having been bit by a rattlesnake and now having difficulty breathing - suggesting intravenous injection of venom. at that early time, the only external ventilators we had required a tracheostomy - so, after his signing the permit, quickly got his tracheostomy (I was an expert (???) - having conducted and published articles in surgical journals on trachoestomies and their complications).

As hours passed with no swelling around the "bite marks", it became quite clear he was faking. The real irony was that a tracheostomy had to be left in place some 4 - 5 days before it could be removed safely - so, in a way, he paid for his actions of faking medical emergencies.

As luck would have it, he paid once more for his attempts to get medical treatment not needed. In some 6 - 8 months, he showed up in another hospital ER here claiming to have accidentally shot himself in the leg while practicing the "quick draw" of his revolver - something fairly common in those days. To his surprise, who sould show up but his previous surgeon who that patient knew would operate quicker than the blink of an eye - a surgeon who could learn from experience, however.

Just under the skin below an obvious short razor blade incision he had made, he had pushed a .17 caliber pellet - not expecting medical personnel to recognize that for what a fake it was and certainly not expecting to see that same surgeon at the different hospital.

Holding a concerned and very straight face after giving him his tetanus shot, I told him how dangerous his wound was and we would have to amputate his leg just above the knee - and do it RIGHT NOW - and handed him the operative permit form to sign for such procedure.

Knowing how quick that crazy surgeon could be to operate immediately - he wasted no time in signing out against medical advice and refusing the medical (surgical) treatment that had been prescribed.

We never saw him again in our community - though I doubt he quit his practices - he at least took them to another community - good riddance.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:38 pm

Just a reminder, even tho a snake is "dead", even shot to pieces, it can still bite up to an hour later. Like Daves snake appears to be mobile, I've had rattlers bodies still move an hour after cutting their heads off, and messed with a head that I'd cut off with a shovel and it was still trying to bite the shovel blade and making wet marks of venom on the shovel blade. They can strike at anything that touches their body, even if cut apart. I've had the stump try to strike when I messed with them after cutting the head off. First thing I do after killing one is step on their head and cut it off, no matter if it trashes the edge on my knife or what (as in rocks and gravel) and bury it where it can't cause trouble for me or my dogs.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:41 pm

Malamute wrote:Just a reminder, even tho a snake is "dead", even shot to pieces, it can still bite up to an hour later. Like Daves snake appears to be mobile, I've had rattlers bodies still move an hour after cutting their heads off, and messed with a head that I'd cut off with a shovel and it was still trying to bite the shovel blade and making wet marks of venom on the shovel blade. They can strike at anything that touches their body, even if cut apart. I've had the stump try to strike when I messed with them after cutting the head off. First thing I do after killing one is step on their head and cut it off, no matter if it trashes the edge on my knife or what (as in rocks and gravel) and bury it where it can't cause trouble for me or my dogs.

Yep, that's a good course of action. More than one dead snake has bitten a person. Strange how they can do that.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:42 pm

kimwcook wrote:
Malamute wrote:Just a reminder, even tho a snake is "dead", even shot to pieces, it can still bite up to an hour later. Like Daves snake appears to be mobile, I've had rattlers bodies still move an hour after cutting their heads off, and messed with a head that I'd cut off with a shovel and it was still trying to bite the shovel blade and making wet marks of venom on the shovel blade. They can strike at anything that touches their body, even if cut apart. I've had the stump try to strike when I messed with them after cutting the head off. First thing I do after killing one is step on their head and cut it off, no matter if it trashes the edge on my knife or what (as in rocks and gravel) and bury it where it can't cause trouble for me or my dogs.
Yep, that's a good course of action. More than one dead snake has bitten a person. Strange how they can do that.

Wasn't there some old saw about a snakes head not being dead till after sundown?

OJ · Post by OJ » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:45 pm

Lots of rattlesnake stories - they really aren't very social minded and try to escape if they can - in my experience, anyway. Victims frequently aren't very smart often - I recall restraining my cousin (when we were young cowboys) as he had one by the tail as it headed down the hole and was trying to pull it out.

Saw one snake bit patient in the ER on Sunday morning - he had seen the snake stretched out in AM shade and tried to move it out into sunshine so it could warm up -

Another colleague's young son found one in back yard and, having heard the way to handle them was with "a fork" - so he went into the kitchen, got a couple of table forks, and went out and picked it up -

Rattlesnakes may be antisocial but they are also ungrateful - or just lack human understanding.

I did find one positive use for the rattles - my ex of some 40 years ago persisted in raiding my desk drawer until I put some rattles from the tail of one I'd killed in the past (I was nearly 16 when my folks moved to the city and I learned there were other ways to make a living than being a coyboy - which was all I knew until then) in the drawer - no more desk raids.

Rattlers & I got along fine - avoiding each other - only a couple of times did I have to terminate one's life. Most of my rattlesnake experience was treating patient's snake bites -

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:49 am

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers guys, the Lady is now home from the hospital. She is still in a lot of pain yet got to go home on friday. She never saw the snake that got her that morning at 8:30. The pain (mucho) was instant and no thought was given to provide the demise of the snake. While she did'nt see it, in that part of West Texas, you can bet it was a Western Diamondback. This devil was carrying a full load of toxin and unloaded on her, thank God she rode through this with her life intact.

Folks have various opinions about rattlers (kill/don't kill) and I think it depends on where your from. Born and raised in W.Texas, I don't recall having EVER left one alive that came across my trail. If you were dove hunting here and saw a rattler and did'nt kill it - why the rancher would think you were crazy and "not from around here huh?" A dern rattlesnake is the only animal I kill just for being there.

the telegraphist · Post by **the telegraphist** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:16 am

We have some pretty nasty serpents in this part of the world, some of the most deadly in the world. Most Aussies know that once bitten by the big guns such as the Eastern Brown, Taipan, Tiger and a host of others, you lightly strap a bandage around the wound area but not too tight, do not remove any venom from the skin, this will aid in the hospital staff to take a swab and identify the venom so that the correct antivenene can be administered. Keep the limb as immobile as possible, even splint it. The bandage will stop the poison travelling too far too quickly, it buys time which is paramount. Venom initially travels through the capillaries near the skins surface. If you cannot identify the snake a general antivenene will be administered whilst you are monitored in case it does not work, meantime a blood sample will have been taken to identify the venom. Hopefully you get help asap.

For dogs, they seem to know what to do, most country dogs after being bitten by the big guns will head for a dam and immerse themselves in cold water to slow the venom spread through the body. Only their head above water. They will stay there for hours. The other useful thing that is recommended by vets is to inject the animal with large doses of vitamin C say 20ml. That has been found to be very successful in Australia. Many a good dog has been saved this way. I have doses of C in my fridge for this very event on my working dogs. My cattle dogs, hate snakes and will take them on and more often than not win out, but when they get a bit old then they slow-up a bit and can get hit. Vit C is the go.

Hope this info maybe useful to you guys in the States if you were not aware of it.

gak · Post by **gak** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:26 am

I'll +1 the factoid about the snakes continuing to strike after dead. Seen it many times. And after that the body will continue to wriggle. Brrr. A little different (was still alive) but I rammed a coiled one against a block wall with a 4x4 post. Got it about 6-8" below the head. You would have thought the shear shock of that mass of force would have done it in (and it was effectively decommissioned). But, to give it a nice "humane" (

) final send-off, with a family member keeping it pinned with the post, when I went to finish it off with a section of vacuum cleaner pipe, mouth agape it continued to strike wildly with what little length it had left. We found this large diamondback IN the house--an uncompleted section--when we came home from a trip. Must've unwittingly let it in just before the trip. 5'2" mother walked in the dark within striking distance, it didn't (yet) so we must've surprised it, but it sure let out the buzz then. After the ordeal was done, I cut the head off, used a shovel to flatten what little was left from my beating, and incinerated it to nothing. Didn't want to just bury as we had dogs that'd surely find it. Tossed the body down in a desert wash for a coyote, bobcat or vulture to have a meal of. Only good use for the darn things in my book. Want rodent (or rattler!) control, get a Cal King or bullsnake, or a couple of half-bobs like we had a few years earlier

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:41 pm

We got then here in the southern parts of Alberta, closer to Montana. Used to sell in that area and usually saw them dead on the road. They slither up there for the heat when it gets cool at night. Never got a rattle as the local lads got them quick for thier pick-up mirrors. Hunted that country but never saw one in the badlands. Now I realize I never paid enough attention.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:42 pm

Octagon, good to hear she's gone home and on her way to mending. Praying everything still turns out for the best.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:27 am

It happened to us for the first time on Saturday. A young relative was bitten on the two toes next to her big toe of the right foot by a large old rattler. Over 2 hrs to finally have her arrive at the hospital. 6 vials of "Crofab", a black foot and swollen leg on Saturday night. By yesterday, when I saw her, the swelling had diminished and her leg was almost normal color. She will be going back to the ranch today to rest and recover. More later.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:30 pm

the telegraphist wrote:We have some pretty nasty serpents in this part of the world, some of the most deadly in the world. Most Aussies know that once bitten by the big guns such as the Eastern Brown, Taipan, Tiger and a host of others, you lightly strap a bandage around the wound area but not too tight, do not remove any venom from the skin, this will aid in the hospital staff to take a swab and identify the venom so that the correct antivenene can be administered. Keep the limb as immobile as possible, even splint it. The bandage will stop the poison travelling too far too quickly, it buys time which is paramount. Venom initially travels through the capillaries near the skins surface. If you cannot identify the snake a general antivenene will be administered whilst you are monitored in case it does not work, meantime a blood sample will have been taken to identify the venom. Hopefully you get help asap.

For dogs, they seem to know what to do, most country dogs after being bitten by the big guns will head for a dam and immerse themselves in cold water to slow the venom spread through the body. Only their head above water. They will stay there for hours. The other useful thing that is recommended by vets is to inject the animal with large doses of vitamin C say 20ml. That has been found to be very successful in Australia. Many a good dog has been saved this way. I have doses of C in my fridge for this very event on my working dogs. My cattle dogs, hate snakes and will take them on and more often than not win out, but when they get a bit old then they slow-up a bit and can get hit. Vit C is the go.

Hope this info maybe useful to you guys in the States if you were not aware of it.

There is a "vaccine" here for the Pacific Diamondback. It doesn't remove the need for treatment, but prolongs the window and lessens the overall effects. Also, many dog owners have had luck with snake avoidance training. I've seen a dog so trained in action, and they wanted nothing to do with rattlesnakes.

gak · Post by **gak** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:48 pm

jeepnik wrote:
the telegraphist wrote: Also, many dog owners have had luck with snake avoidance training. I've seen a dog so trained in action, and they wanted nothing to do with rattlesnakes.

A must for gun dogs or any dog that sees the trail and field a lot. Should be like teaching a kid to swim early on as a basic life skill--SOP. A friend lost his best pointer to a diamondback several years ago. No guarantees to anything, but had the dog been avoidance trained...

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:52 pm

The general rule is to keep it elevated, but not to use ice, as this will increase flow when removed. Damp cloths are OK for a soothing effect.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:07 am

never got bit but almost stepped on a big one stretched out drinking from the creek. Earlier that day a guy warned me about them drinking like that; then I saw the evidence. It was huge; nine rattle sections and fat as a wrist. I hung back and watched for a while and then he rattled at me. I had a gun with me but at the time wasn't sure if it was legal to shoot one. I would kill them just to reduce their numbers and have eliminated several babies who show up at the silhouette range each spring.

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:54 am

I was fly fishing with a club in the Snowy Mountains in Australia some years back. It was quite warm weather and most of the fishermen were wearing jeans and light canvas shoes that grip the river bottom well.

A fellow who was chatting to another and who was wearing gaiters felt a tap tap tap on the side of his boot and looked down- there was a young tiger snake (google it- its a bad dude) repeatedly striking his waders.

when word got out I have never seen blokes get into waders as fast in my life!