Another Look At 357Mag For Deer Hunting

[COSteve]

Deleted

[6pt-sika]

I cannot argue the 357 MAG in a rifle from the normal perspective .

I can however argue it from a process of elimination .

I've killed a PILE of deer with 44 MAG's over the years in levers and Ruger Auto Carbines . With both factory ammo and handloads with both jacketed and cast bullets . And they all pretty much knocked the fire out of all of them I shot !

I've also killed three deer with a Marlin lever action in 41 REM MAG shooting jacketed 210 grain handloads . All three deer were shot thru the lungs behind the shoulder TWICE and all 3 showed very little signs of ever being hit . While the deer walked maybe 30-50 yards and tumbled over the ammo was doing it's job . However I was not overly impressed with the reaction the deer made after each shot .

Now as to the 357 MAG in a rifle for hunting deer . I had worked up handloads with the Nosler 180 grain Partition as well as the Lyman 215 grain SWC GC . I am pretty sure both of these would be deer killers inside 75 yards . But like the 41 MAG I'm not sure I'd be overly happy with the reaction from the shot if they reacted anything alike .

You made a comment about the deer being smaller in the east and south which very well may be true ! The three I killed with the 41 MAG were all in the 90-110 pound live weight class . So that kinda leads me to question the same thing with the 357 MAG .

Now with all that being said I am one of those people that always wanted to waylay a less then inteligent deer with a marlin in 32-20 and possibly one in 25-20 . So then "if" those would work within reason I suppose the 357 MAG should be okay as well !

While it wasn't the cleanest kill in the world James Jordan did lay the smack down on what was the Boone and Crockett #1 Typical Whitetail for a number of years and well as I can remmeber that was a fairly decent bodied deer . But then if the story is true he shot that deer about 6 times .

[COSteve]

Deleted

[6pt-sika]

Actually, the best performing hunting round for the 357mag is a 158grn bullet as you can develop the best combination of ME and bullet weight. And yes, your Eastern deer are about 1/2 the live weight or less than the deer in our neck of the woods. Here's one that hung around for years in our back yard.

I've shot a couple Mulies in north eastern Montana and that ones a hair larger .

So based on what you're saying that deer you showed the picture of is 300+ and we have NONE that weigh over 150 pounds ?

I cannot agree with that !

[COSteve]

Deleted

[6pt-sika]

No, you said, "The three I killed with the 41 MAG were all in the 90-110 pound live weight class ." and I responded that ours are double that, i.e. 180-220lbs live weight.

I failed to state the 3 I killed with the 41 MAG were all slicks not bucks !

A decent bodied buck in this area should field dress 140-175 .

[FWiedner]

I've never understood the attempt to determine caliber suitability for the task by measuring how far a deer runs. Shot placement has much more to do with putting an animal down so that it will not or cannot run than what gun or bullet might be used for the hunt.

Personally, I've had animals run (though not far) with innards blown to jello, but I've never had one run when cranial or spinal damage was inflicted. I've had animals drop on the spot and be pristime as a fall morning except for the bullet holes running through thier vitals. My reading on the subject leads me to believe that particular response has more to do with the momentary circulatory condition within the animal at the moment it was shot, which is a condition that is certainly one that is beyond the hunter's ability to control or predict, than what it might have been shot with.

Much of my hunting in the last 5 or 6 years has been split between the .30-30 and the .357. I alternate between a Trapper length Winchester Mod 94 in .30-30 shooting 170gr Win PP at about 1975 fps and a Marlin 1894C in .357Mag shooting AE 158gr JSP at about 1700fps. I don't use hollow-points and much prefer pass-through penetration. Because I opt for the pass-through, I don't recover many bullets and therefore cannot offer information regarding bullet performance other than to observe that either of these bullets or calibers will render a fine permanent wound-channel through a 150lb deer or feral hog.

Between these two carbines, I've lost a total of one animal, a hog, to the .30-30. I believe that was an issue of poor shot placement rather than a failure of a firearm or the ammmunition.

The .30-30 may be ballistically superior but, IMO, for hunting inside 100yds these two firearms and loads run neck-and-neck for terminal performance.

Beyond that particular marker, I bring more gun.

[madman4570]

Steve,
Typically in this area where we have extremely abundant farm land our average(Mature Bucks) average around 140-150lbs(field dressed)
Example the one I shot last year dressed out at 187lbs(42 in girth)and yielded 87lbs of meat.
Typically we consider here a good sized buck with a live weight of 160-200 + lbs.

I will tell you being alone and putting a large racked dressed 187lb deer in the back of a small Ford Escape SUV is no small feat.
After about an hour of every which way/I said that's it Grabbed a plastic paint drop cloth,rolled the sucker up in it)bear hugged it,and stuffed it in there.

After showing it off to some buddies at couple places,took it to my Taxidermist/Meat Cutter and he said------how long you had em in your little SUV ? I said "oh about 3 hrs".
He said---------------------Watch out inside your nice SUV for a mess of Deer Ticks????

[86er]

In my own experiences the 30-30 and the 357 Mag (not limited to rifles) have been comparitively poor performers on game both statistically as captured in 1000 Tags Filled with a systematic analysis and in personal observation with my own expectations as the baseline. However, that doesn't necessarily make either a bad cartridge - like was said the shot placement is a critical factor as is the range. For whatever reasons outside of my own control neither of the aforementioned have impressed me but neither has completely disgusted me either. Given a choice with rifles of the same weight I prefer the 357 Mag with excellent 158 gr loads or 180 gr loads in the 1800 fps+ range. I like the short little cartridges, the capacity of 5 or more in the tube and the .35 caliber hole. I do not like either cartridge out of handguns and I will personally limit my range to 100 yards on game up to 150 pounds, assuming the rifles accuracy is exceptional and I have a very steady shot and clear path for the bullet. My sons have been shooting a little Puma with 158 gr WFNGC .38 Special load doing 1235 fps. At 25-50 yards this projectile has proven it will penetrate and exit a broadside hog or deer. It has also travelled 24" into a hog shot head on and, umm, facing the other way. One year I used a 30-30 with the 160 gr LE ammo. I shot 6 deer with that bullet, 2 were not recovered-2 went over 200 yards and 2 dropped in their tracks. They were all 100 yds and shot placement was nearly the same on each. 1 exited, 3 did not. Go figure! One year I used a 357 Mag exclusively. Out of a 4" handgun the 158 gr Hydra-Shok did little to preserve my faith on a 200 pound black bear. After 2 shoulder shots it came towards me, the last shot in the cylinder stopped in 6 feet away by puching a hole between his nose and eye. Penetration was only 8" or so. I swapped the handgun out for a rifle and used the same ammo as well as 158 gr Winchester JHP. One deer dropped at 50 yards with a lung shot, one ran over 100 yards with a 70 yard shot to the back shoulder, quartering away. When located it could get to its feet but could not run, another shot did it. An antelope doe was shot 30 yards out just behind the front leg, a little low. She walked another 20 yards out before I shot again, this time hitting higher. She turned and walked another 50 yards before I could get another shot. This one into the lungs wobbled her and she went down in 10 or 12 more steps. A finisher was necessary to expedite things, I did not want to let her go on any more. So I will agree that with proper loads, range limitations and excellent shot placement there is little difference in "paper power", but the right 357 Mag load from a rifle seemed to show an edge to me. Personally, I will pass on ever using either on big game, in favor of something that has been more consistently capable of a quick death within a short distance. I will let my boys use theirs on small TX deer and hogs when the rifle is rested and a clear shot is present up to 50 yds or so. I won't knock you guys that know how to use either very well - either will get the job done when the circumstances are right.

[86er]

oops sorry - hit the button too many times..

[Marlin32]

The 357 mag Marlin was my first (first gun I owned outright, not borrowed) deer gun.
I have shot several big Nebraska White tail bucks with it. Lost one, poor shot, back in gut, he eventually (long story, Brother in law screwed up) made it 150 yards into neighbor's and got shot immeadiately.
All shots were under 50 yards with Federal 180grain Hollow points. In that particular stand, it was a real good performer, recovered almost every bullet as it usually was just inside the hide.
Now in Nebraska that gun is illegal. Except with maybe Hornady load or Buffalo bore maybe some other heavy hitters out there or reloads, but you would need to prove it! Need 900 ft-lbs here, get this, the 357 handgun IS legal for deer.
Talk about complete misunderstanding of ballistics.

Anyway, I shoot the 32 Special out of this stand now. a 45 colt would do the trick to I think, some day...

[COSteve]

Deleted

[madman4570]

Stunning!

[2X22]

My wife has taken her fair share of bucks in our 33 years of marriage. From little 110lb bucks (field dressed) to one about 185lbs (field dressed). All with the same little .357 Marlin I bought her right after we got married. A 158gr JSP @ 1750fps. Boom, steaks. Same thing with my Dad and the little .32-20 he had converted to .357 in 1952 and still uses today, the only rifle he's hunted deer and bear with since returning from Korea, using cast bullets only.

Never thought too much more about it until I started reading on the internet whether it was big enough or not.

[Booger Bill]

Will, or can a elk and large mulely ever cross breed? Maybe they do and we just think the offspring is a large muley?

[octagon]

BoogerBill: Rod Marburger covers cross breeding in deer populations in his book "The King of Deer" if you could find a copy. He is a real nice old guy and an authority on deer.

[WCF3030]

Never thought too much more about it until I started reading on the internet whether it was big enough or not.

Same here.
I never gave it much thought of weather my 30-30 would get the job done. If I had a 357 carbine, I would not give it a second thought for deer, black bear or hogs with the right bullet. I guess I've cleanly killed enough critters to where I know if I do my part they will end up in my freezer.
Discussions like these give me something to read though in-between hunting seasons.

[pdawg.shooter]

While a .357 would not be my first choice, if that was all I had I would not go hungry!

[JerryB]

Same old story, something to read and talk about. When the .357 handgun came out most of the big game animals were taken with it. Now there is always the question of is it enough for deer.

[bigbore442001]

Not all deer in the east are small. My guide friend in Maine shot a buck that dressed out at 270 lbs. A fellow in town shot one with his bow that dressed out at 279 lbs.

[harry]

Not all deer in the east are small. My guide friend in Maine shot a buck that dressed out at 270 lbs. A fellow in town shot one with his bow that dressed out at 279 lbs.

Need to kick those deer away from the feeder.
Harry

[tman]

I've never understood the attempt to determine caliber suitability for the task by measuring how far a deer runs. Shot placement has much more to do with putting an animal down so that it will not or cannot run than what gun or bullet might be used for the hunt.

Personally, I've had animals run (though not far) with innards blown to jello, but I've never had one run when cranial or spinal damage was inflicted. I've had animals drop on the spot and be pristime as a fall morning except for the bullet holes running through thier vitals. My reading on the subject leads me to believe that particular response has more to do with the momentary circulatory condition within the animal at the moment it was shot, which is a condition that is certainly one that is beyond the hunter's ability to control or predict, than what it might have been shot with.

Much of my hunting in the last 5 or 6 years has been split between the .30-30 and the .357. I alternate between a Trapper length Winchester Mod 94 in .30-30 shooting 170gr Win PP at about 1975 fps and a Marlin 1894C in .357Mag shooting AE 158gr JSP at about 1700fps. I don't use hollow-points and much prefer pass-through penetration. Because I opt for the pass-through, I don't recover many bullets and therefore cannot offer information regarding bullet performance other than to observe that either of these bullets or calibers will render a fine permanent wound-channel through a 150lb deer or feral hog.

Between these two carbines, I've lost a total of one animal, a hog, to the .30-30. I believe that was an issue of poor shot placement rather than a failure of a firearm or the ammmunition.

The .30-30 may be ballistically superior but, IMO, for hunting inside 100yds these two firearms and loads run neck-and-neck for terminal performance.

Beyond that particular marker, I bring more gun.

Well said. The buffaloe bore 180 will take all north american game. 50 yards with a pistol, 100 or so with a rifle. Use a 30-06 if u want to shoot at 400 yards. This works if u can shoot. you really don't need anything else.

[Griff]

I don't think one can categorically state that deer in the east and south are smaller then ones out west. I've seen records from all sorts of states where deer run much larger than I used to think. That doesn't mean the average isn't as large as some...

If you'd have said that deer in TX were smaller than other places, I'd have agreed with you... even CA with their coastal blacktail... until 1984 when I killed a CA coastal blacktail that field dressed at 198 lbs. And it wasn't even the largest one I'd seen that trip... just the only one I got a good shot at. And I saw a texas mule deer taken about 4 years ago that went well over 200 lbs field dressed.

It always amuses me when folks talk about the unsuitability of a handgun cartridge chambered carbine or rifle for deer and yet they don't seem to rail against the same cartridge in a handgun. Let's at least be consistent, either the cartridge isn't capable, or it is.

Personally... am I going to use my .357 carbines or .45 Colt rifles for deer? Not real likely, but if presented with the opportunity, and all other factors werre right... you betcha! And it wouldn't matter if that were a 200lb mulie or whitetail!

[madman4570]

I've never understood the attempt to determine caliber suitability for the task by measuring how far a deer runs. Shot placement has much more to do with putting an animal down so that it will not or cannot run than what gun or bullet might be used for the hunt.

Personally, I've had animals run (though not far) with innards blown to jello, but I've never had one run when cranial or spinal damage was inflicted. I've had animals drop on the spot and be pristime as a fall morning except for the bullet holes running through thier vitals. My reading on the subject leads me to believe that particular response has more to do with the momentary circulatory condition within the animal at the moment it was shot, which is a condition that is certainly one that is beyond the hunter's ability to control or predict, than what it might have been shot with.

Much of my hunting in the last 5 or 6 years has been split between the .30-30 and the .357. I alternate between a Trapper length Winchester Mod 94 in .30-30 shooting 170gr Win PP at about 1975 fps and a Marlin 1894C in .357Mag shooting AE 158gr JSP at about 1700fps. I don't use hollow-points and much prefer pass-through penetration. Because I opt for the pass-through, I don't recover many bullets and therefore cannot offer information regarding bullet performance other than to observe that either of these bullets or calibers will render a fine permanent wound-channel through a 150lb deer or feral hog.

Between these two carbines, I've lost a total of one animal, a hog, to the .30-30. I believe that was an issue of poor shot placement rather than a failure of a firearm or the ammmunition.

The .30-30 may be ballistically superior but, IMO, for hunting inside 100yds these two firearms and loads run neck-and-neck for terminal performance.

Beyond that particular marker, I bring more gun.

Well said. The buffaloe bore 180 will take all north american game. 50 yards with a pistol, 100 or so with a rifle. Use a 30-06 if u want to shoot at 400 yards. This works if u can shoot. you really don't need anything else.

If that is true, why was the .458 Lott developed?
Same bullet placements were getting people killed with a .458 Winchester.
My experience is you absolutely also have to consider a higher power weapon just plain shocks the animal out right.
Examples of deer I have shot with the 30-30 with shots(same area)with a .300 Win Mag the differences are extreme?

[tman]

I've never understood the attempt to determine caliber suitability for the task by measuring how far a deer runs. Shot placement has much more to do with putting an animal down so that it will not or cannot run than what gun or bullet might be used for the hunt.

Personally, I've had animals run (though not far) with innards blown to jello, but I've never had one run when cranial or spinal damage was inflicted. I've had animals drop on the spot and be pristime as a fall morning except for the bullet holes running through thier vitals. My reading on the subject leads me to believe that particular response has more to do with the momentary circulatory condition within the animal at the moment it was shot, which is a condition that is certainly one that is beyond the hunter's ability to control or predict, than what it might have been shot with.

Much of my hunting in the last 5 or 6 years has been split between the .30-30 and the .357. I alternate between a Trapper length Winchester Mod 94 in .30-30 shooting 170gr Win PP at about 1975 fps and a Marlin 1894C in .357Mag shooting AE 158gr JSP at about 1700fps. I don't use hollow-points and much prefer pass-through penetration. Because I opt for the pass-through, I don't recover many bullets and therefore cannot offer information regarding bullet performance other than to observe that either of these bullets or calibers will render a fine permanent wound-channel through a 150lb deer or feral hog.

Between these two carbines, I've lost a total of one animal, a hog, to the .30-30. I believe that was an issue of poor shot placement rather than a failure of a firearm or the ammmunition.

The .30-30 may be ballistically superior but, IMO, for hunting inside 100yds these two firearms and loads run neck-and-neck for terminal performance.

Beyond that particular marker, I bring more gun.

Well said. The buffaloe bore 180 will take all north american game. 50 yards with a pistol, 100 or so with a rifle. Use a 30-06 if u want to shoot at 400 yards. This works if u can shoot. you really don't need anything else.

If that is true, why was the .458 Lott developed?
Same bullet placements were getting people killed with a .458 Winchester.
My experience is you absolutely also have to consider a higher power weapon just plain shocks the animal out right.
Examples of deer I have shot with the 30-30 with shots(same area)with a .300 Win Mag the differences are extreme?

If u can't shoot nothings gonna help. The old trappers used .45-..62 caliber muzzle loaders on the great bears and lived to have us. They knew how to shoot! I'de go with a 45-70 in Alaska, but, maybe, its due to 40 years of reading about it and not living it. I'm not gonna tell an Inuit eskimo that his .222 rem. is underpowered for a brown, polar bear, walrus or even a whale, if he spent 40 years hunting with it. Perhaps a bad shot by Jack Lott, or even a .458 kill that , in his opinion took too long to die, lead to the 458 Lott. One shot ,drop dead right now makes good reading, but, if u hunt long enough, things don't always work out that way. Otherwise, we would be limited to hand full of cartridges and the gun and magazine industry wouldn't have survived.

[L_Kilkenny]

Well this kinda started over at another site and has spilled over to here. Have to say the information has been much better here, as expected I might add.

I'm a believer in the .357 carbine and rifles for deer. While not the end all by any means energy numbers, SD and velocity, etc etc are fairly good indicators. And the numbers are just too close between the .357 carbine/rifle and it's more traditional competition (namely the .30-30) to leave much to be desired for short range deer. I have shot deer with a 4" Security Six (180gr XTP's at 1200+fps) and all I can say is the damage to tissue and organs is greater with the handgun than with 12ga. foster slugs, the traditional load here in Iowa. I've also shot enough game to realize that overwhelming firepower doesn't make up for bad shots.

SO if the foster slug is good (questionable but what I use and I get the job done), and the handgun is good (again maybe marginal), and the numbers are good I just don't see how a .357 carbine or rifle is bad. That being said I'm very impressed buy some of the experience, for and against, by you folk who have slayed way more than me and with this combo to boot. Giving me much to think about.

BTW, how do heavy and hot .357's stack up number-wise to the .35 Rem?

LK

[Old Savage]

Seems to me it all depends on the range.

[bigbore442001]

Not all deer in the east are small. My guide friend in Maine shot a buck that dressed out at 270 lbs. A fellow in town shot one with his bow that dressed out at 279 lbs.

Need to kick those deer away from the feeder.
Harry

No feeders here. They are illegal. The Maine buck was shot after tracking for five days while the other one was shot with a bow after a lot of scouting.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Seems to me it all depends on the range.

Very true. I get that question all the time. "how far can i shoot a deer?"

My stock answer is "as far as you, the gun and the ammo can consistantly put a 5 shot group into a pie pan size target. (about 9")
With both the 30-30 and the 357m BC that works out to about 100 to 150 yds.

Also, the best bullet that I have found for 357 on fur covered animals is Horaday's 158 XTP flat point. Less likely to shoot through because it won't clog up like the hollow point.

[FWiedner]

... "how far can i shoot a deer?"

Seems like the proper response would be "How much does your deer weigh, what kind of powder are you using, and are you gettin' a good seal when you stuff him down the barrel?"

[COSteve]

Deleted

[.Dirty-.Thirty]

When deer under a hundred yards takes a .357 to the lungs and won't die, i'll take up golf. My opinion is, keep the cartridge in the range that most have suggested and make a killing shot. If you cannot do this a bigger cartridge won't solve your problems. .DT

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

... "how far can i shoot a deer?"

Seems like the proper response would be "How much does your deer weigh, what kind of powder are you using, and are you gettin' a good seal when you stuff him down the barrel?"

Probably shouldn't call it a deer gun anymore either!!!

[Scott Tschirhart]

When deer under a hundred yards takes a .357 to the lungs and won't die, i'll take up golf.

Very well put.

[wvfarrier]

My affinity for 357 mag is no secret. I killed my 1 and only elk (cow) with a Win 94AE in 357 mag. I have killed more whitetail deer than I can recall with either that rifle and others, my current hunting rifle in a Winchester Deluxe 1892 with a 24" barrel. Ive killed black bear with it as well.

My son learned to hunt using a Marlin 357 and now 15 years later he still uses that rifle for deer, hogs and bear.

Ive also never lost any game animal shot with a 357 rifle. Now, I dont push my luck either. I keep my shots a reasonable (for me) distances. I am a handloader and come from a family of handloaders if that makes a difference.

Aside from the great bears, I would hunt anything else in North or South America and some Plains game with my rifle and handloads.

[Scott Tschirhart]

In a rifle or revolver, I'm a real fan of the .357 as well. It has always been a good round for me and I sometimes wonder why I spent so much money trying to learn to shoot bigger guns.

I think the cartridge was neutered when they lowered the pressures to 35,000 PSI and the present form of the .357 is not what I was shooting back in the day.

Fortunately, I can still handload and get all I need from the cartridge. Last weekend I spent a pleasurable afternoon with an old 3 screw Ruger Blackhawk 6.5 inch. For rambling around, this is a hard combination to beat.

[TedH]

Last weekend I spent a pleasurable afternoon with an old 3 screw Ruger Blackhawk 6.5 inch. For rambling around, this is a hard combination to beat.

One of my favorites as well.

FB_IMG_1645280926075.jpg

[wvfarrier]

It just flat out works!!!

[Twodot]

Scott,
What bullet are we looking at in your Blackhawk?
..

[FLINT]

Where I hunt in Western VA, the 2 1/2 + year old bucks that I get usually weigh 160 - 200lbs live weight (estimated by their dressed weight). The heaviest buck I ever killed had an estimated live weight of 225lbs, though he had a goofy little 80" rack.

I've killed two does with a 41 mag ruger blackhawk. I think one was using 210 grain (I think remington soft point???) handloads, and the other was with Winchester 240 grain HPs. both seemed to work fine. pretty close distances, about 40 yards. With my handgun skill level and iron sights I'll continue to stick with shots 50 yards or less.

I've killed a pile of deer with my 30-30 and don't believe for a second that there is a deer within 100 yards that it won't kill as good as ANY other caliber. I'm sure the same would apply for a 357 mag with an appropriate bullet within 100 yards. I was watching some dude on youtube lately. Can't remember if it was Ron Spomer or GunBlue490 who said the whole idea of knockdown power is a total myth. Ultimately, what you need is a bullet construction/weight/velocity combination that will put the bullet consistently through the deer's vitals at the distances you are likely to shoot. A 30-06 isn't going to kill the deer any deader within 100 yards than a 30-30, but out at longer distances the 30-06 is clearly superior as the velocity is higher allowing the bullet to penetrate deeper at longer distances (and also the trajectory issue - you have to be able to hit the deer). In fact, within 100 yards depending on the bullet construction, the 30-30 could even work better as the 30-06 may be going so fast at close ranges that the bullet doesn't hold up and penetrates less. But I think the point was that if you hit the same deer in the same spot within a reasonable range with both a 30-30 and a 30-06, the more powerful cartridge isn't more likely to "knock it down" harder or faster. When shot through the vitals, both would likely have the deer run a short distance before running out of oxygen and dying. Deer being knocked down on the spot is more a function of bullet placement than it is "power".

[GunnyMack]

Ever see a deer hit with a 12 ga slug? 1oz of lead doing 12-1400 fps should clearly knock it down right? Not unless you break major bone. Ive killed more than 100 deer, can't remember but a handful that dropped in their tracks, those were mostly headshots! Copoer solids just zip through!



A 22 short will kill a deer, human, moose or polar bear IF the bullet hits lungs,heart or major blood vessels- FACT.
Its a matter of making the shot count. Distance, wind, light all contribute to our hunt. As long as YOU are comfortable with your choice of gun( notice I didn't use the term weapon) then enjoy your hunt, make venison and all is right in the world.

[piller]

Hit any game animal with a poorly placed shot and you are in for some tracking and a possibility of a bad time. I have done it. A well placed shot with a pistol caliber would have done more good. Shot placement is important no matter what the caliber you are using.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Scott,
What bullet are we looking at in your Blackhawk?
..

173 gr Keith from Montana Bullet Works. It won’t fit in a Smith 27 cylinder but it’s perfect for the Ruger or a 686.

The reason I revived this thread is because I find it fascinating that people still discuss whether a .357 is enough gun for killing whitetail deer. You would think that we would have settled this many years ago.

[JimT]

...... I find it fascinating that people still discuss whether a .357 is enough gun for killing whitetail deer. You would think that we would have settled this many years ago.

It began in the 1930's and what was done with it should have settled the question.

1935
Major Douglas Wesson ,357 Magnum S&W Sixgun ..... 158 gr. bullet @ 1500+ fps

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

.............................

1938
Walter Sykes

Wildebeest - 100 yards - complete penetration, knockdown on the first shot.

His Guide, John Hunter (of "HUNTER" and "AFRICA AS I HAVE FOUND IT") wrote that the .357 was "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting"...

.....................

1938
Sasha Siemel - Professional Hunter in South America

6 Tigres - Amazon Jaguar's - using the S&W .357 Magnum

He wrote, "...It does all the work of a rifle and is light and easy to carry.."

[wvfarrier]

Im not sure I would have the stones to try it on one of the great bears

[Scott Tschirhart]

Not bad for a gun made in 1970.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Jim,

Correct me if I’m wrong, but these shots were not made with an XTP but rather with cast or swaged bullets

[JimT]

Jim,

Correct me if I’m wrong, but these shots were not made with an XTP but rather with cast or swaged bullets

Yessir. And 158 gr. bullets at that.

[Drawdown]

Vast majority of the popular opinions today of the 357mag is very similar to the 30-30. Based on a lack of knowledge!

20220220_141650.jpg

[Drawdown]

20220220_141622.jpg