Recoil sensitivity

[J Miller]

When I first started shooting I was somewhat sensitive to recoil. I started out with a Savage bolt action .22 with zero recoil and moved on in short order to a Winchester 1894 SRC and an Enfield No4 Mk1. I shot them A LOT. After several years I got to shot a Winchester MDL 70 in 458 Win Mag, and within 2 shots flinched badly at the third shot. That rifle was to me at that time VICIOUS.
12 guage shot guns were OK until it came to the 3" magnums, those things hurt.
During all this I was shooting my No4 MK1 and Win 94s on a regular basis. I know to some those are painful rifles to shoot, but they never bothered me.
Some years later, 85 I think I bought a really nice Mauser MKX in 30-06 and found that rifle unpleasant to shoot. Even though it fit me very nicely it bruised my shoulder more than once.
Years passed, I sold off most of my rifles and my shotgun but kept the Enfield and Win 94Trappers.
Several years ago I received the Marlin MR-7 in 30-06. To me it felt the same as the Mauser MK X I used to have. Because of this I was worried about shooting it. I was expecting the painful recoil I remembered from the Mauser so many years ago.
When I finally got to shooting it last month the recoil was nothing like I was expecting. I was somewhat amazed. No discomfort, no shoulder bruises, no flinching.
So I thought it over and can only come to these conclusions:
A: I'm older, more experienced and no longer have the fear of the unknown as I did when I first started out.
B: I'm fatter and have much more padding in the upper body than I did in the past so that cushions the shoulder some what.
C: I don't care about the recoil any more.
D: All of the above.

I was just curious if I'm alone in this or if some of you have experienced the same things about recoil.

Joe

[6pt-sika]

Different stock dimensions are one of the more critical things for me with recoil . Also weight of said gun !

I shoot ALOT of 444 and 45-70 loaded close to max or at max . I also shoot several of the African cartridges on a regular basis as well as most of the normal American belted magnums . And to be honest they don't bother me . My present preferred skeet and dove gun is my grandfathers old 10 gauge 2 7/8" W.C.Scott SxS . So as you can see I get my fair share of recoil .
Now with that being said I have owned no less then 3 bolt action rifles in 308 WIN that would kick the shite out of you at the bench with normal hunting loads ! Two were stainless synthetic Remington Model 7's and the other was a Ruger 77RSI tang safety . None of these weighed over 7 pounds with scope attached I think or maybe 7 1/2 tops . Anyway with 150 grain handloads they could wack you pretty good .

So what I'm trying to say in essence is some people fit some rifles better there fore recoil doesn't bother or hinder them as much with a particular rifle as it may another person . Probably doesn't answer your question , but just my take on the situation and lord knows I've wasted more money shooting then I economically should have over the last 40 years .

[Griff]

Yep, weight of gun, length of pull, drop at heel and height of comb are the most important factors in felt recoil. But even still, recoil sensitivity is a very personal reaction. Some folks can shoot a 458 Win Mag just fine... I won't bother... my buddy's 300 Win Mag is more than I like... but then it's in a mdl 70 Winchester... I'll take my 700 Remington anyday!

[jnyork]

My BIL once gave me a little 20 guage shotgun, breakopen design, Iver Johnson or some such, I fired it 3 times and gave it to someone else! Dang thing just kicked the bejeezus out of me, brought tears to my eyes and cheekbone hurt for a week.
Yet , I have many, many times fired a 60-shot Service Rifle match with an M1 Garand and had no ill effects at all, didn't bother me a bit. Stock fit is critical.

[86er]

I don't like recoil and it causes problems on my rebuilt right shoulder too. A good rifle or shotgun that is weighted and fitted properly will reduce the felt effect of recoil to some extent, however there is a point where the amount reaching the shooter is more than that persons personal theshold. My 450 NE that I built was meticulously fitted, weighted and balanced so that the felt recoil was as low as it could be for me. It ends up near 11 pounds with 24" barrels. With a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps I equate it to a stout 20 gauge or standard 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge load. On the other hand, I have yet to shoot any rifle in 338 Win Mag that I could handle more than two shots from without pain. My 7mm Mag and 275 Rigby are both fitted and push me straight back with virtually no muzzle rise. They are extremely comfortable for me. A friends 7mm Mag is a Remington with a synthetic stock and I get smacked hard when I shoot it. I find the right tool for the job and make it work for me. Less recoil is better to me as long as the projectile is still getting the job done consistenly.

[Ben_Rumson]

I’m recoil sensitive.... I stand 6’1’’ and go 320lb ...I’ve got plenty of natural padding.. But read that as inertia!!...That inertia gives time for that butt plate / butt pad to dig in and cause pain before my body starts moving backwards from the recoil... The lanky /willowy smaller stature types don’t have that working against them as us larger types do... they start moving backwards sooner!...Hell of a thing to be the Big Joker there wincing from recoil and begging off more shots with the 50-110 when your Slim Jim bud and his four foot eleven inch wife think it’s fun....

[RIHMFIRE]

I dont own any big hitters.........but....
the largest rifles I have shot recoil wise are the 45-70 , the big bores from winchesters
356, and 375.....and 348 and 450 alaskan out of a model 71
All the ammo for these were reloads and on the hot side...for me...
A former member, Duff-l-Bagg, loved to see if he could brake my shoulder...
He got a big kick watching me flinch on the first shot too...but after a few shots
it became controllable....
A: I'm older, more experienced and dont need them for the game down here.
B: I'm have much more padding in the upper body
C: I really didnt care for the big recoil hit...

And the biiiiggeeest round i have shot is a "C" sharps in 45-110...
which had no where near the recoil I was expecting....due to the weight...
enjoyable to shoot...accurate.....a 1 bullet hole gun.
big bore 375 was way way worse....

[Hobie]

It is mind over matter, if you don't mind, it don't matter. Look at some of the videos of people shooting various guns including "elephant" guns. Not that much gun movement. Concentrate on the shot, not on the recoil and the recoil "disappears". This is what happens when you shoot at game. Also, I've got to say, if a 9 year old girl can shoot a .375 H&H Magnum from the prone position I am NOT complaining.

[piller]

My Dad shot a .410 his brother in law had years ago. Dad said that .410 hurt more than any 12 gauge he ever shot. From the description, it had a thin stock, straight, and a very narrow butt plate. What I shot that hurt the worst was a Ruger .44 Magnum carbine. That thin curved metal butt plate hurt.

[adirondakjack]

How a gun fits you is very important. I have a cheap russian Baikal shotgun with full and modified chokes and can run 1375 fps 1 3/8 ounce "Super X Super pheasant loads through it with no issues, or STS remmies pulling both barrels at once.

OTOH I bought an 8MM Mauser stocked in a remington stock that beat me half to death. But when I restocked it in a modern sportster stock that FIT ME and had a different comb, no problem, sweet as butter even with healthy european loads. Similarly, even with a pencil barrel, my old .50-70 rolling block in the original military stock with a steel butt plate as wide as a two byy four was FINE with full house loads because the gun just happened to fit me.

[piller]

When the stock fits, it seems everyone agrees that it gives the least felt recoil. My wife had a Marlin 336 of mine cut down for her, and she loves it. Before the stock cutdown, she said it kicked too much.

[RIHMFIRE]

you want recoil...
I was sighting in my 1187 turkey gun at the range one day
and ole Duff-l-Bag comes over and says,...Why dont you give this a try...
12 ga., 3 1/2" magnum turkey load, out of a short barrel H&R single shot shotgun...
Rolled my butt right over...they laughed.....and laughed...

[olyinaz]

I've got bad discs in my neck and back, so recoil is not my friend at all (nor is shooting from many positions). Last time I spent an afternoon getting pounded by my milsurp bolt actions I was almost immobile the next day and had really bad pain/numbness/tingling in my neck and shoulders for several days.

I had a Rossi .454 do pretty much the same thing to me once.

Sucks, but is what it is.

Oly

[J Miller]

I've got bad discs in my neck and back, so recoil is not my friend at all (nor is shooting from many positions). Last time I spent an afternoon getting pounded by my milsurp bolt actions I was almost immobile the next day and had really bad pain/numbness/tingling in my neck and shoulders for several days.

I had a Rossi .454 do pretty much the same thing to me once.

Sucks, but is what it is.

Oly

My back is trashed as well. So far Ibuprofen is my friend. If that's not enough Tramadol ups the ante.

I've fired a 12 gr 3" mag buckshot loads from my Sears Winchester pump. Bout knocked me on my butt.

Joe

[Jeff H]

I've got bad discs in my neck and back,.........Oly

Couple in my neck, and I have dealt with them for thirty-plus years. I didn't know what it was until a couple years ago when the second one developed and I went to see a cicilian doctor. First round was with military doctors and they had all kinds of wrong answers. If there are any military doctors reading - sorry - that was what I got at the time and they were all way off base.

My Dad has played with all manner of things from the Whelen to the .222 and I have obliged his enthusiasm on numerous accasions by "trying this one out" and have regretted it many, many times. Now, I point to my neck if he asks me if I want to "try this one!?"

.223, .257 Roberts and the 6.5x55 are the three centerfire rifles I stick with these days, but I don't feel cheated because I like those (and the 7x57, and ther's a couple actions and a barrel waitimg in the safe) better than any others anyway. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a compact .250 Savage either.

I had a Ruger tang safety UL in .308 and a Husky (marvelous rifle) L51 in .308 and with 150 grain loads they both pounded me enough that it hurt for a couple weeks. On the other hand, I once had a Winchester M70 (post-64) Lightweight in '06 that I could shoot 180 grain loads from. All mentioned loads were at the higher end of one manual or another and all three rifles weighed about the same with scopes, mounts, etc.

The .223 is a Ruger No. 3 and seems heavy - NO problem with that at all, but it's too long in pull for me. If it were a bigger cartridge, I wouild probably have to shorten it.

The 'Roberts is an FN 98 with a somewhat chunky sporter barrel (22") and a Boyd's walnut stock I shortened up to fit me. No problem with that one.

The 6.5x55 is on an '09 Argentine with an A&B lightweight barrel (21+") and a Boyd's laminated stock I shortened up also to fit me, and no problem with this one even with 160 grain bullets at about 2400 fps.

Whatever those have in common seems to work for me.

I have mentioned before that the Marlin 94 in .44 mag, using normal 240 grain loads was not fun as well and I usually have someone chime in and tell lme their wife gets along with that one just fine. Well, she can HAVE it. That is one of the reasons I got a .357 carbine instead of a .44. In a revolver, the only thing I found the .44 nmag uncomfortable in was the N-Frame Smiths. They are beautiful guns but they just don't "fit" me.

My brother had a Marlin in .35 Remington that hurt and I remember his 30-30 even hurt at one time, but I believe I have the "pain management" thing somewhat,...... well, managed.

[claybob86]

I’m recoil sensitive.... I stand 6’1’’ and go 320lb ...I’ve got plenty of natural padding.. But read that as inertia!!...That inertia gives time for that butt plate / butt pad to dig in and cause pain before my body starts moving backwards from the recoil... The lanky /willowy smaller stature types don’t have that working against them as us larger types do... they start moving backwards sooner!...Hell of a thing to be the Big Joker there wincing from recoil and begging off more shots with the 50-110 when your Slim Jim bud and his four foot eleven inch wife think it’s fun....

That's my experience, too. I have some friends with quite a bit more mass than me, and recoil that hurts them doesn't bother me that much, for the reasons you stated.

[Old Savage]

From my point of view it is a matter of mechanics and form. As noted, 320 lbs to move means a lot to absorb the recoil rather than give with it. One friend 6'5", 270 leans into shooting a crescent butted 1886 with 400 grainers at 1875 and gets all bruised up - another 5'10", 150 gives like the front fork on a dirt bike happily shoots 70 rds and is looking for more. With the spine/neck, here is mine, position and the induced movement matter.



No issue if my head is straight up looking into a scope but getting down the sights on a standard 94 contorts it into a position that wants to tie it in knots. A Marlin 1895SS with a scope is comfortable with my 350 gr 1875 fps loads but the pre 64 94 is not. Just a matter of how the rifle fits and technique - shoulder should be behind the mass of the body, torso and hips. Some Monte Carlos are out of the question but the Win m70 from 1988 is fine.

[J Miller]

Fred, if you compared notes with Dr. Schurger about my neck and upper parts you'd probably find out I shouldn't be shooting rifles at all.
Because of two whiplashes, a fall down the stairs and the spinal arthritis I'm a mess. I cannot get into the positions I used to and that causes fatigue and pain.
But, I refuse to quit. Maybe I'm stupid ... (in more ways than one I think) ... but I'm not ready to yet.

I'm a phat old boy who finds the padding to be helpful. The trick is with all my arthritis and problems I still do not resist the recoil. AND I suck that stock tight into my shoulder. Always have. That way there is no room for the stock to get a run on me.

Me and the Marlin.JPG

Shooting MR-7 offhand_web.JPG

Me and my Winnie web.JPG

Yes guys I know, I need to loose weight.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Joe, I actually think it helps if it is done so that it doesn't punish you.

[adirondakjack]

Yep, with spine issues ya gotta be careful of position. My neck has been surgically rebullt so half of it is fused together. The middle half don't bend. That puts all the stress above and below the fused part. BIG recoiling rounds, .416 Rigby, etc, are out for me. And yes, how a stock fits makes all the difference. I shot my .50-70 happily seated, using cross sticks. Off the bench it was a killer. I watched a guy running a Marlin in .45-70, shooting bunches of rounds. He's short, and weighed maybe 190 on a stocky little frame. He stood on the balls of his feet, no weight on his heels, and let the gun rock him back...... If he planted firmly, it'd probably be no fun....

[Old Savage]

Good points - Joe's standing position is very good, why he puts you in the mind with John Wayne - notice how his shoulder is behind all the body mass and has raised to keep his head and neck erect. Doing something similar at the bench helps which would have you seated more sideways to the rifle. Watched an old guy that wasn't very big doing that with a 458. That was a lesson.

[rimrock]

I had a Ruger Model 77 in 30/06 in the late 70s, and it punished me so much I quit rifle shooting for more than 20 years. I was too dumb to know to look for a better recoil pad, and affordable recoil reducers most likely had not been invented. i didn't reload either. In 2007 I bought a Marlin 444 and once I found the Limbsaver recoil pad, I didn't notice recoil so much. Now, I also reload and can run loads mild to wild but tend to stay middle of the road. Sometimes the old times aren't as good as present times.

rimrock

[Canuck Bob]

I find it rather personal as well. I hated shooting my Rem 700 7mm Mag lefty bolt. It slapped me silly and I flinched like a 100 pounder girl child. I was regularly shooting a 444 Marlin loaded stout and a 375 H&H loaded stouter in a Ruger #1, loved those rifles. I was minute of anything back then offhand to 200 yards with a peep and those rifles. The Rem could shoot MOA but not with me pulling the trigger.

I did shoot the Rem with a receiver sight with the scope designed stock though. I just find the smaller magnums much sharper. I kinda figured it had a lot to do with the velocity of the bullet's acceleration down the tube. The Ruger loaded with 300 gr grizzly loads was a bear at the shoulder but I found it enjoyable offhand. Horses for courses I guess.

[Wrangler John]

Me too! I had a spinal cord tumor removed from my neck and they removed five lamina (the little bones that stick up like a dinosaur's spines) to gain access. Didn't help the arthritis a danged little bit, so I can't crouch over a bench sighting through a scope for long. Can't shoot the big bores much either. I used to relish my .375 Epstein Magnum I had built with a stock designed for recoil, but even that is risky today. I don't really have much use for a cartridge developing 4,500+ ft lbs of energy anyway, so it's a safe queen now. The .45-70's sit in the safe next to the .375, and I sold one off. Fortunately most of my hunting is ground squirrels and that requires light recoiling .204 Rugers, .223 Remington's and a .22-250 or two.

Even handguns pose a problem. I fired my custom 5 shot .480 Ruger Blackhawk last year with some Federal factory loads. Forgot how pleasant it was to have a finger split open where the trigger guard whacked it (forgot the glove). In the old days I'd shoot Contenders in silhouette competition with .30 and .357 Herrett cartridges or the .30-30, or revolvers in .357 Maximum, .375 Super Mag, and .44 Magnum. The .375 Herrett would split the web between the thumb and forefinger making a bloody mess. Learned about shooting gloves and super glue as a quick suture. Now I have carpal tunnel and cubital tunnel syndromes and arthritis that make it difficult to grip these heavy recoiling handguns. The .480 Ruger Super Redhawk escaped my grip one day while developing loads and flipped up landing on my chest. I would go home from these matches with a headache from concussion (sound wave impact and recoil shock) and various contusions. Wife said I needed my head examined for thinking taking such punishment was fun.

Folks, recoil isn't something to laugh about. I fired hundreds of practice rounds a month of magnum handgun ammo when competing, it takes a real physical toll. Same with big bore rifles. I worked at a firing range and had access after hours for load development and experimentation, it all took a toll on my hearing (even with ear protection) and joints. So, be careful the damage is accumulative, it sneaks up on you especially about the time the first Social Security payment arrives. Now with Social Security I have money for Naprosyn and Hydrocordone.

[Old Savage]

Wrangler, the atlas vertebra can commonly misalign and fixate in what is termed a subluxation in chiropractic. Lateral cervical MRIs will often demonstrate an intrusion into the brainstem/spinal cord area in the posterior portion which carries the motor nerves to many of the spinal muscles causing them to marginally tighten, change vertebral position and restrict natural motion. This causes some jamming of joint - articular - surfaces against each other and promotes degeneration by changing the forces, usually with loss or reversal of cervical curve and restriction of movement on the joints and discs. It also changes various fluid flows in the area. When I got married in 75 on our honeymoon we visited the chiropractor, Dr Weldon Muncy, that my wife had worked for. He analyzed and adjusted me according to a system of xray analysis developed by Dr William Blair of Lubbock, Texas to analyze and adjust individual joints in the cervical spine but most commonly the top one or two due to the way the spine is constructed and the nervous system functions. This was a big help to me in freeing up my neck. I have a history of a car into a tree, motorcycle into a ditch, football through college and various other injuries. This was more help than more general chiropractic systems and is what I have used for 33 years in practice due to my experience. Injuries cause changes that require the body/spine to work out the best plan B. I play golf regularly, can hit drives 280 to 300+ at times and stay generally active. But, some odd positions and forces are a problem. Depending on where you are in Ca. there may be a DC near you that specializes in this work. I have been an instructor for 20 years and know most of the guys using this. PM me with your location and I will send you some info on who is around you if you like. Screening tests that we have done indicate that at least half the adult population has some degree of this problem and could be helped.

[J Miller]

Wrangler,
Listen to OS, he speaks the truth. He arranged for me to get treatment and it did wonders. Unfortunately I haven't been able to continue it due to lack of $$.¢¢.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Thanks Joe, Dr Shurger is one of the best and brightest of the young guys I know. Just talked to him, he was off to sing in the choir and running a golf tournament this afternoon for his church group - he is not playing. What a guy! Is it Spingfield, Ill. Give him a call. Said the way he hits, golf torques up his neck.

[t.r.]

One of my favorite hunting rifles is a Savage 99 in .308. Muzzle jump was excessive but solved with MagaPorting from an outfit in Michigan. I slip on a Limb Saver pad over the butt. Solution: no more offensive recoil!!

My 30-30 carbine also has a slip on pad but used primarily to lengthen stock to fit me. I find 30-30 recoil to be quite manageable which is one of many reasons this cartridge remains popular with hunters across North America.

The worst kicker I ever fired was an H & R single shot carbine in 35 Whelen. Felt like a strike from Thor's hammer!

TR