Pistol Caliber LG Barrel Length Question

[J Miller]

Here is something I've been wondering about.

When considering lever action rifles with tubular magazines:
Other than sight radius and extra magazine capacity does a rifle length barrel (24" to 26") have any advantages over a carbine length barrel (20") when chambered for smokeless pistol cartridges such as the .45 Colt?

Just trying to decide something about my leverguns.

Joe

[Pitchy]

With smokeless i`d say not much difference in a pistol caliber, the sights would be the biggest advantage i`d think but that`s just a opinon

[pdentrem]

Well, you will get the most energy from the cartridge. If you reload you can use a slower burn powder to increase the power of the round without increasing the pressures. The larger the case the better the results. 25-20 not much vs 45 colt which is a much larger case.

[Rusty]

You have a longer mag tube so you can miss more. Personally I like the way the longer barrels balance. If you want higher velocities you have to keep the longer barrels in mind when it comes to burn rate of the powder.

[Hobie]

I think that in the vast majority of cases the charge that gives the highest velocity in one barrel length will do so in all barrel lengths. SOMETIMES one sees a switch between a barrel at the shortest length (1-7/8") compared to the very longest (26" or so) where using a slow vs fastest burning powder actually makes a difference. HOWEVER, some barrels are slicker/faster or have tighter chambers, etc than others and it is impossible to determine whether or not that might have made the difference. Cartridges which generate higher pressures and/or larger gas volume seem to take better advantage of longer barrels. Hence velocity increases in the .45 ACP not so much and the .357 Magnum quite a bit.

Short form... get the barrel length you like.

[jnyork]

The longer barrel not only increases the sight radius but also adds weight out front where you need it the most for increased stability in offhand. There is a vast difference in the ability to hold between the rifle length barrel and the little carbine, if you ever get a chance to compare the two side by side you will notice it immediately.

[AJMD429]

Short form... get the barrel length you like.

Yep.

The little 16" leverguns just look & feel like the handy little tools they are, and are easier to maneuver in thickets if you're hunting, hallways if you're home-defending, or in and out of a truck or tractor if you're working.

At the other end of the common barrel-lengths, the 24-inchers just look & feel like they would shoot a gnat's eye out at 100 yards, or if you put a fancy ladder-sight on them, at 1,000 yards . They do seem to balance better for target shooting, especially a standing long shot, and they are noticably QUIETER with some loads. (The .38 Special and .45 Colt low-power loads in a 24" barrel gun can be as quet as a .22 LR rifle.)

Then the only ones that look & feel like 'real' cowboy-guns to some are the 20-inchers.

If I were limited to just one of the barrel lengths, I think I'd just pick whichever one shot the most different loads the most accurately, or whichever one fed most reliably. If that were all equal and one were a Marlin and the other something else, I'd pick the Marlin for parts-simplicity, sight-flexibility, etc.

All the circumstances (other than CAS maybe) where I might care about the extra 3 or 4 cartridges in the magazine would be ones where the maneuverability and reliability would be of even greater concern.

[adirondakjack]

If yer walking in open country, grass, etc, where shots will be longer, the stability afforded by the long, weight-forward rifle can't be understated. They just hang out there like they're on a rest.

Converely, if yer working dense brush or steep, heavily wooded areas, the short guns will "one hand" better through a thicket, balance at the reciever instead of the forearm, are lighter to carry, quicker to point, and still offer sufficient stabilty for the shorter shots most likely to be taken.

I have em ranging from 16 to 24", and each has there own best attributes.

What I don't like is a 16" round barreled carbine, as they are butt heavy and tend to want to slip into a nose high attitude when levered. A 16" octagon barreled rifle balances neutral, just like a 20-22" round barreled gun.

With a pistol caliber cartridge, the velocity differences will be so minimal as to not be worth talking about.

[J Miller]

Well, I don't shoot CAS so I wasn't even thinking about that angle. I agree with the larger powder charges in the larger cases giving the most velocity increases as well.
All of your responces are pretty much spot on.
However AJMD's
"Yep.

The little 16" leverguns just look & feel like the handy little tools they are, and are easier to maneuver in thickets if you're hunting, hallways if you're home-defending, or in and out of a truck or tractor if you're working.

At the other end of the common barrel-lengths, the 24-inchers just look & feel like they would shoot a gnat's eye out at 100 yards, or if you put a fancy ladder-sight on them, at 1,000 yards . They do seem to balance better for target shooting, especially a standing long shot, and they are noticably QUIETER with some loads. (The .38 Special and .45 Colt low-power loads in a 24" barrel gun can be as quet as a .22 LR rifle.)

Then the only ones that look & feel like 'real' cowboy-guns to some are the 20-inchers.

If I were limited to just one of the barrel lengths, I think I'd just pick whichever one shot the most different loads the most accurately, or whichever one fed most reliably. If that were all equal and one were a Marlin and the other something else, I'd pick the Marlin for parts-simplicity, sight-flexibility, etc.

All the circumstances (other than CAS maybe) where I might care about the extra 3 or 4 cartridges in the magazine would be ones where the maneuverability and reliability would be of even greater concern."
If yer walking in open country, grass, etc, where shots will be longer, the stability afforded by the long, weight-forward rifle can't be understated. They just hang out there like they're on a rest.

Converely, if yer working dense brush or steep, heavily wooded areas, the short guns will "one hand" better through a thicket, balance at the reciever instead of the forearm, are lighter to carry, quicker to point, and still offer sufficient stabilty for the shorter shots most likely to be taken.

I have em ranging from 16 to 24", and each has there own best attributes.

What I don't like is a 16" round barreled carbine, as they are butt heavy and tend to want to slip into a nose high attitude when levered. A 16" octagon barreled rifle balances neutral, just like a 20-22" round barreled gun.

With a pistol caliber cartridge, the velocity differences will be so minimal as to not be worth talking about.
~and~
adirondakjack's
"If yer walking in open country, grass, etc, where shots will be longer, the stability afforded by the long, weight-forward rifle can't be understated. They just hang out there like they're on a rest.

Converely, if yer working dense brush or steep, heavily wooded areas, the short guns will "one hand" better through a thicket, balance at the reciever instead of the forearm, are lighter to carry, quicker to point, and still offer sufficient stabilty for the shorter shots most likely to be taken.

I have em ranging from 16 to 24", and each has there own best attributes.

What I don't like is a 16" round barreled carbine, as they are butt heavy and tend to want to slip into a nose high attitude when levered. A 16" octagon barreled rifle balances neutral, just like a 20-22" round barreled gun.

With a pistol caliber cartridge, the velocity differences will be so minimal as to not be worth talking about."

pretty much match my experiences. Especially the balance situation with the 16" round barrel Trappers. My 94AE Trapper in .45 Colt is exactly as he described it. It's OK to shoot if you keep the magazine full, but when it gets near empty the balance goes out the window.
It seems to me that a 20" heavy barreled, such as an octagon barreled short rifle, pistol caliber lever gun is about the best compromise as far as barrel length goes. Especially for someone who maybe limited to the number of guns they can have, or someone wanting to reduced the number of guns they have.

Joe

[AJMD429]

It seems to me that a 20" heavy barreled, such as an octagon barreled short rifle, pistol caliber lever gun is about the best compromise as far as barrel length goes. Especially for someone who maybe limited to the number of guns they can have, or someone wanting to reduced the number of guns they have.

From a 'physics' standpoint, the moment of inertia and center of gravity of a 24" gun could certainly be duplicated with a shorter barrel gun, if the barrel was heavy enough out front. Sight radius and magazine capacity wouldn't be different, but you might attain the 'pointability' that way. I've never handled a shorty octagonal, but I'll bet they're nice.

[earlmck]

Yeah, Joe, I think the comments are pretty much right on. Not enough velocity difference to worry about. The only place I have rifles with duplicate cartridges but different barrel lengths is in 30/30 and 35 Remington. In these, the same load in 35 Rem pushes out the barrel just slightly faster in the 20" barrel than it does in the 24" barrel, but you have to shoot a fair number of shots and take the average to tell any difference at all. The 30/30 is the opposite, but again you have to get an average of 5 to 10 shots to tell any difference at all. And these are with rifle cartridges using medium-rate rifle powders.

I've seen the trials where somebody takes a long barreled gun and gradually chops off the barrel an inch at a time. And like Hobie says, you get a little loss of velocity as the barrel gets shorter with any cartridge but maybe .22 long rifle. But it has to be really slight with pistol cartridges, with individual rifles giving more variation because of bores and chambers than you get from the barrel length differences...

[J Miller]

It seems to me that a 20" heavy barreled, such as an octagon barreled short rifle, pistol caliber lever gun is about the best compromise as far as barrel length goes. Especially for someone who maybe limited to the number of guns they can have, or someone wanting to reduced the number of guns they have.

From a 'physics' standpoint, the moment of inertia and center of gravity of a 24" gun could certainly be duplicated with a shorter barrel gun, if the barrel was heavy enough out front. Sight radius and magazine capacity wouldn't be different, but you might attain the 'pointability' that way. I've never handled a shorty octagonal, but I'll bet they're nice.

AJMD,
I actually described my Marlin 1894 Cowboy .45 Colt. It has made it's way to my: "NEVER EVER NOT TILL HELL FREEZES OVER PART WITH IT" list.
(NUTS! I was gonna post a pic of it but I forgot I'm on the old box and there isn't any pics of it I can use here. But it's the one I'm holding in Griff's Marlin 1894 project thread.)
If my wife and I ever get over there to visit you I'll bring it along.

earlmck,
Basically I can't see myself shooting at real super long ranges any time soon. I will have a receiver sight on my rifle with a sourdough front sight on it to take advantage of the longer sight radius. So I'm pretty sure the 20 Short Rifle is the way to go.

Joe

[Paul105]

I tested some .45 Colt (Ruger Level Loads) in three different guns. The load used H110 under the Lyman 452651, dual crimp grove, 335gr FPGC seated to the top crimp grove (shortest OAL). The results were measured 5 paces from the muzzle at 60 Deg F and only show what these guns did on this day with these components. Certainly not definitive or statically valid, but might be of interest.

24 Inch Marlin Cowboy:……………….. 1,560 fps
20 Inch Rossi Puma (.454)……………... 1,540 fps
6” Freedom Arms M83 w/45 Colt cyl:…. 1,310 fps

Seated to the top crimp grove, the Lyman slug takes up a lot of powder space and my load might have been a little on the hot side for Ruger Blackhawk revolvers, especially as temps increased.

I’m sure that using the same load, different guns would likely show different results (although probably not a lot). Also, the 6” Freedom Arms has always seemed to be a “fast” gun.

In my limited experience, faster (vs. slower) powders don’t seem to benefit as much from longer barrels.

The 24” Marlin Cowboy is an amazingly well balanced rifle and a pure joy to shoot. The 20” Rossi is a light, fast handling, powerful carbine better suited for all day carry, and/or for use in heavy cover or close quarters.

Paul

[El Chivo]

does a rifle length barrel (24" to 26") have any advantages over a carbine length barrel (20") when chambered for smokeless pistol cartridges such as the .45 Colt?

Just make sure you use the 45 Colt with the carbine barrel and 45 Long Colt with the rifle barrel

[J Miller]

[41 Redhawk]

Uh oh Joe, El Chivo just pushed one of your hot buttons!

[Jeff H]

....Just make sure you use the 45 Colt with the carbine barrel and 45 Long Colt with the rifle barrel

I guess somebody had to do it.

[El Chivo]

well we were all thinking it.

I DID see a box of ammo on the shelf at the store that said "32 Short Colt" (I may have the caliber wrong, but it definitely said "Short Colt". Should I buy the box and sell it on Ebay?

[BAGTIC]

To me the longer barrels not only 'hang' better in offhand shooting they also swing better on running shots.

[adirondakjack]

To me the longer barrels not only 'hang' better in offhand shooting they also swing better on running shots.

For targets at some distance this is true. The down side is the longer, heavier barrels are a hair slower to get moving, and tend to overswing a target if the target stops. I have both a 16 and a 24" Marlin, both octagon barrels, and the 16 is faster into action and quicker to stop if need be, whereas the 24 is steadier on a follow thru on a running game shot... I use both for CAS, where swinging through an array of targets while continuously hosing them is the fastest way through a stage. The longer gun is easier, but the shorter gun, once mastered, is faster.

[Canuck Bob]

I recently bought a long barrel Winoku 92 take down in 32-20. After receiving it I found one concern, the balance point. Its a little barrel heavy in the hand. I like my lever to balance with a hand hold just in front of the gaurd. The way an iron sighted levergun fits the hand while carrying is its finest feature in my opinion.

With a full tube my rifle would require a hand position well down the barrel. However, even when hunting I usually load a lever 3 max in the tube and one in the chamber. For years I loaded 3 in the morning then levered one into the chamber on hunting ground. Its so easy to slide a round in the port as a lefty that a full mag was never needed. Didn't know ported levers are lefties, eh. You can load a full tube and never take your trigger hand off the stock, that's tactical brilliance.

[J Miller]

I usually carry mine with my hand on the receiver just forward of the lever. I like them to balance level at that point when loaded, and if possible even when empty.
My Win 94 16"Trapper with the skinny barrel is horribly butt heavy when empty and neutral when loaded. It's so bad that if you shoulder it with a full magazine you can feel the balance change as you fire the rounds and the magazine empties. Although I have no intention of getting rid of it, I shoot it very little just because of this.
My Marlin 1894 Cowboy .45 Colt with it's 20" octagon barrel seems to balance like I like it both empty and loaded. It is much easier to shoot and to carry.
Between the two rifles if I was to keep just one, I'd keep the Marlin.

Joe

[Birdman]

I always thought about a 16 inch barrel for my 44 but I keep talking myself out of it. Balance, sight radius, mag capicity. My factory 20 inch 44 barrel and 18.5 inch 357 just seem to work and may be the best of both worlds. But, never say never.

[Old Ironsights]

Let's throw a wrench into the works...

How about on Muzzlestuffers?

Let's say 18" vs 20"... BUT don't reduce the sight plane.

I'm considering getting a couple of barrel liners that use a screw-in 209 breech to "update" an old damascus double. (I was going to turn it into a .45-70 double but picked up a 1895 GS since then...)

The liners are only available in 18" or shorter. The bbl length of the shotgun is 20" so there will be a 2" 16ga freebore.

All other factors aside, what difference will it make?

[J Miller]

OI,

Is there enough spread to the shot pattern at 2" to even bother being concerned about? I'd almost best the shot pattern will still be 16 gauge out past the original 20" barrel.

Joe