OT / Q for horse guys

[mouthpiece]

Every western movie I have ever seen depicts stagecoach going 90mph. Doesn't that tire the horses -- like after about 4 1/2 minutes?

How fast do you figure stages ran between stations?

[horsesoldier03]

Thats a good question, here is the best answer I have found....

Butterfield Overland Stage began rolling on September 15, 1858, when the twice-weekly mail service began. A Butterfield Overland Concord stagecoach would start from San Francisco and another overland stage from Tipton, Missouri, over the better roads. As the going got rougher, the passengers and mail were transferred to "celerity wagons" designed for the roughest conditions. Each run encompassed 2,812 miles and had to be completed in 25 days or fewer in order to qualify for the $600,000 government grant for mail service.


SIPR and NIPR net test messages conducted Per contact lists

[kimwcook]

First, I think it'd depend on how far the stations were set apart and what the purpose of your trip was. You're right though in that horses can't maintain a gallop for long periods of time without tiring. Generally if you have a long distance to travel you use the trot and fast paced walk. I'm talking riding one horse, not a team. Obviously, load, conditioning, breed and terrain are factors to take into consideration too. Never rode in a stagecoach.

If I had bad guys chasing me I'd be running those horses as long as they'd take it or I could get to cover. Being out on a stagecoach and taking fire isn't my idea of a fun time.

[Sixgun]

Every western movie I have ever seen depicts stagecoach going 90mph.

With 51 posts, you should not be watching Westerns, especially at 90 mph! You could get hurt and then all of the fun here at Leverguns would end. (makes sense--don't it?)

On a serious note my guess would be about 6 miles an hour with slow downs inbetween. Those 30 mph runs we see can't last for more than a half mile. I know our horses get tired just walking from the barn to the field, but then again, we have "Eastern horses". I hear the Western horses have more stamina--------------Sixgun

[Griff]

That 2812 in 25 days or less equates to needing to average 4.68 miles per hour. Most stage stops were less than 25 miles distant IIRC, and at a fast trot, they could easily maintain about ~10 miles an hour... Since they didn't run at night, they needed to keep 'em movin' during the daylight! Usually, the whole team is swapped out at EVERY station. And if you've ever ridden in a leather sprung stage, 10mph feels like 90 or more! It's bad inside, but up on the box, you better not be the least bit squeamish!

[J Miller]

I've seen enough of the old Phoenix to Prescott hiway to believe that if I had to ride in a stage coach, I'd be seriously considering walking. Besides what Griff says about the coaches (which I'm taking his word on) the roads were not much more than a rutted trail.

I can imagine the trip from Phoenix to Prescott or Tuscon would be an adventure rather than just a trip.

I was born a 100 years too late.

Joe

[vancelw]

I was born a 100 years too late.

Joe

I used to think that, but I got over it.
Did I ever mention how MUCH I like quilted toilet paper, air conditioning, and Dr. Pepper?
I guess I could have gotten DP 100 years ago, but I would have had to ride a non air conditioned train (with a Sears' catalog in the water closet) all the way to Waco to get it.

[J Miller]

I was born a 100 years too late.

Joe

I used to think that, but I got over it.
Did I ever mention how MUCH I like quilted toilet paper, air conditioning, and Dr. Pepper?
I guess I could have gotten DP 100 years ago, but I would have had to ride a non air conditioned train (with a Sears' catalog in the water closet) all the way to Waco to get it.

I have it from an anonymous source that the Sears catalog was printed on softer paper a 100 years ago. Or~ we had tougher butts.

Joe

[Sixgun]

Joe[/quote]
I have it from an anonymous source that the Sears catalog was printed on softer paper a 100 years ago. Or~ we had tougher butts.
Joe[/quote]


Joe, The Sears catalog is exactly what my Dad used growing up in western Pennsylvania in the twenties and thirties. He told me he never used a regular toilet until he entered the army during WW2.---------Sixgun

[hayabusa]

My future wife & myself took a short ride on a brand new stagecoach (it sure looked brand new) in Brackettville, Texas in the '80s. I believe if I had to ride one very long, I would have been a very mean man at the end. It was very rough, and that was on a smooth looking trail (movie set road)! But boy was it ever FUN!!!
Busa

[MrMurphy]

Never ridden a stagecoach that I can remember, though I have ridden in several landaus (open carriages, European style).

I'd say you could keep up a good 5-10mph trot for much of the day with bursts of speed for longer, depending on how heavy loaded the carriage/coach was.

[claybob86]

I was born a 100 years too late.

Joe

I used to think that, but I got over it.
Did I ever mention how MUCH I like quilted toilet paper, air conditioning, and Dr. Pepper?

Good point!

[OJ]

This August I'll celebrate my 85th anniversary of my arrival on this planet - and, I was nearly 16 when my folks moved from the cattle ranching Sandhills of Nebraska to the city (Denver) and I found out there were other ways to make a living besides being a cowboy. My dad was the first white child born in Torrington, Wyoming, November 26, 1900, since grandpa King was the railroad station agent always at the furthest west end of the railroad. Dad dropped out of high school after 11th grade to enlist for WW I (I did the same for WW II) and he got the WW I version of GI bill - a homestead to ranch on in Wyoming.

As I adjusted to urban civilization, I came to realize the movie versions of the wild west and cowboy life were the products of imagination of people who had never had any contact with the real thing - movie versions of the wild west were unrelated to the real thing - just entertainment - but, they are that.

Charlie Russell was good friends of many movie cowboys and he expressed his admiration for them - saying they would ride up and down hills he would hesitate to do with a ladder - so it's not to look down on western movie life - it's just fiction to be enjoyed for what it is..

[SJPrice]

This August I'll celebrate my 85th anniversary of my arrival on this planet - and, I was nearly 16 when my folks moved from the cattle ranching Sandhills of Nebraska to the city (Denver) and I found out there were other ways to make a living besides being a cowboy. My dad was the first white child born in Torrington, Wyoming, November 26, 1900, since grandpa King was the railroad station agent always at the furthest west end of the railroad. Dad dropped out of high school after 11th grade to enlist for WW I (I did the same for WW II) and he got the WW I version of GI bill - a homestead to ranch on in Wyoming.

Where were you located in the Sandhills? I have some good friends who still ranch in that area on a family ranch that is headed to their fifth generation soon. The ranch is call the Circle Dot and covers just over one hundred sixty thousand continuous acres. Been a while since I have been out there and I think maybe a spring branding trip is in order.

[OJ]

Where were you located in the Sandhills? I have some good friends who still ranch in that area on a family ranch that is headed to their fifth generation soon. The ranch is call the Circle Dot and covers just over one hundred sixty thousand continuous acres. Been a while since I have been out there and I think maybe a spring branding trip is in order.

Grant County - Whitman PO - I grew up there from 1926-1942 (can be "Googled" under "Who's Who in Nebraska" - I made it by virtue of their listing my dad and his offspring).








Grandpa King in white shirt, tie, and coat.

Circle Dot - one of the best known brands in Nebraska - was owned by Earl Monahan - a good friend of my dad - also me - he approved my hunting on his ranch - one of the largest around then - herd size estimated around 6,000. Still family owned as far as I know.

For years, I flew my Super Cub up to help with branding in the spring - always great social affair not much changed over the years - branding usually done by noon and afternoon spent drinking cans of beer cooled by having been put in the stock tank - refirdgeration not common in those days. As kids - we could usually swipe a couple of cans to share -

[kimwcook]

That's pretty cool, OJ.

[SJPrice]

OJ,

That is pretty cool. The Monohans are great people. When I go out, I stay at one of the old ranch houses over near Hyannis. The last branding I went to was 2 years ago and at that time they were running closer to 11,000 head. Talk about a busy place. You are absolutely correct about the branding. We finished branding 600 head by 1 PM and then headed back to the main ranch house for a barbecue and liquid refreshments. The beers were in a huge cooler off the tool room now. They have better facilities these days. They raise some great beef. I also hunt the ranch for grouse. We hunt horseback with big running pointers. Those hills are a killer to try to hunt on foot and the birds are a long ways apart. The last few years though have been pretty slim hunting. A couple of bad winters and dry springs and summers make for poor bird habitat.

Steve

[Griff]

That's pretty cool, OJ.

+1

[OJ]

I see I forgot the last half of the title "Who's Who in Grant County, Nebraska, in 1940". That was when the circle dot herd size was estimated by Mrs. Willard Hayward.

I forgot this thread was about horse speed - and I do have some experience there. My dad was on the Grant County Rodeo Board and our annual job was to collect the bucking horses donated by the ranchers - from their work horses used in the hay field - broke to harness but had little tolerance for a rider on their backs.

Now, moving cattle is mostly a slow boring job but, moving a herd of horses was done mostly somewhere between a trot and full gallop. My horse always knew what the horses we were moving to Hyannis were going to do well before I did - such as sudden change of direction, and, I can say it required wide awake attention every minute - otherwise, you could find yourself sitting on nothing but air - briefly - it was more excitement than the rodeo.

Also, I ran the rake in the hayfield to make win rows for the sweep to pick up and the rake job was done at a brisk trot all day long - so my team was usually the youngest there and, the rake regularly ripped the roof off bumble bee nests - making them very angry and they would swarm up around my head and around the horses. You quickly learn your best activity was to avoid swatting at them but, when they got to the horses, the trot went to full gallop - yep - those horses were very fast and tended to pay more attention to the bees than to me.

My wife always is amazed when she sees me having a wasp or bee circling my head and mu studiously ignoring that critter. I had paid my share of "tuition" enough to learn it is always best to ignore the bees/wasps.

Hope this wasn't too boring - I never rode a stagecoach but had my share of experience with horses and their speed/endurance.

[Buck Elliott]

Take a quick read through ROUGHING IT, by Mark Twain... He gives a thoroughly accurate (though tongue-in-cheek) description of the whole 'stagecoach' experience...

FWIW, a lot of coach routes were run day or night, in this neck ot the woods, and other parts too, from what I can gather...

[OJ]

I sincerely hope I'm not boring or invading this thread too much but, talk of horses pulling stagecoaches at full run (I always doubted that) reminded me of an "incident" of my young cowboy days somewhat related.

Young cowboys about age 12 are big and strong enough to get into trouble and not smart enough to avoid that. My closest friend that age had his grandfather living next door on their ranch - common then. His grandfather had come to the Sandhills with a team of oxen so grandpa made Leonard a yoke from a railroad tie - complete with pipes that attached the yoke to the ox team.

We admired it and hatched up an idea of giving it a test run. We caught a couple of "short yearling" steers - probably around 500# - hooked the yoke to a wagon, and hooked the big calves to the yoke.

What happened next was we got the ride of our lives - over several miles of rough pasture, through a small lake, and one and one half fences more or less - at which point a rear wheel came off bringing us to a halt - we thought it was GREAT !!

Our dads had other ideas but, I had the impression they were having trouble keeping straight faces while explaining to us the error of our ways - they had been young cowboys together and, while they probably hadn't done anything quite like that - they did understand how young cowboys got educated and still managed to survive.

Of course, it never occurred to us that the ox team were trained to voice signals - GEE, HAW, GET UP, AND - most of all - WHOA.

I think the fact that our team hadn't figured out how to work together probably extended our longevity but, with all my several thousand hours as pilot in command - much doing aerobatics, that is still the ride of my life.

[Borregos]

OJ, boring that was NOT, more like fascinating

[claybob86]

Great story, OJ! Not boring! You post 'em, I'll read 'em!

[Dave B]

OJ, I really enjoyed the story.
Thank you,

Dave B

[KirkD]

I live in the heart of Old Order Mennonite country, where they drive a variety of buggies, big and small. I guess I've seen thousands over the past 15 years. Most of the time, the team is walking. Quite often, I'll see a fine looking team prancing down the road in a trot. The only time I've ever seen buggies being hauled at a gallop is once or twice when the horses got spooked and they were going flat out through some grain field with the buggy and its hapless occupants careening along behind. Keep in mind, the trotters are all going down a hard packed gravel or asphalt road. I can imagine if they hauled a stage coach at a trot down the average back road where I grew up, the starch would be shook out of the coach and its occupants pretty fast.

[OJ]

Thanks, guys, for the kind words about my old cowboy stories. Our entertainment then didn't have such things a tV, Video games, and such - so we made do by inventing ways to get in trouble.

As a result, most of us old cowboys have wild stories like mine - some of them are even true -

[kimwcook]

Love your stories.

I grew up after the horseless carriage was invented, but did grow up rural. Did most of my stuff horseback until I was introduced to cars and got my license. Don't get me wrong I drove a lot without a license, just not near civilization and did take a chance of getting caught by the department I work for now. The car tended to go faster, hold more people, beer, etc...and didn't require feeding if I parked it.

[OJ]

Love your stories.

I grew up after the horseless carriage was invented, but did grow up rural. Did most of my stuff horseback until I was introduced to cars and got my license. Don't get me wrong I drove a lot without a license, just not near civilization and did take a chance of getting caught by the department I work for now. The car tended to go faster, hold more people, beer, etc...and didn't require feeding if I parked it.

Well yes - everybody drove in the Sandhills (males mostly). My dad was the banker - small four section ran a small herd of white faced Herefords as a sideline - but, anyway, bankers hours were different then.

The bank - staffed with dad and grandpa King - was open Monday through Saturday - so we spent a lot of Sundays counting cattle which were collateral for the loan that rancher had. After about age eight, I would always go with him and we would drive through the herd while he counted the cattle on his side and I counted them on my side (we used little clicker counters that fit in the hand). Those cattle guards common now weren't so common then and we had to open and close barbed wire gates. I wasn't big enough to close most of those gates but, I could see over the steering wheel so the most practical thing was to teach me to drive through the gate while dad did the opening and closing.

Actually, it was quite common for the boys, at least to start driving around 8 - 10 years of age because tractors and pickups needed to be driven and it was just more practical for young cowboys to drive regularly. As luck would have it, that lead to my sharing the driving on vacations to Yellowstone every year - even pulling a trailer beginning in 1939 - I was nearly 13.

I never got stopped until we moved to Denver in 1942. I turned 16 August 12, 1942, and dad and mother were both working in our store so I was driving from 4900 South Broadway to about 6th Avenue where the license bureau office was to be tested and get my driver's license. In Englewood - about 1/3 of the way in was a police officer randomly stopping cars to check for licenses and such. When I explained why I didn't have one - he wished me luck and let me do just that.

Things have changed since then - and, IMO, not for the better.

[kimwcook]

Actually, it was quite common for the boys, at least to start driving around 8 - 10 years of age because tractors and pickups needed to be driven and it was just more practical for young cowboys to drive regularly

To funny. I was driving my dad's pickup, clutch w/three speed on the floor, pulling a flatbed while he walked along side and picked up hay bales. I was about eight years old at the time and couldn't sit on the seat to see where I was going at the same time I had to put the clutch in or hit the brake. I put the front end over the irrigation ditch berm and into the ditch. I felt bad, but I slipped on the clutch and by the time I got to it again I was already in deep water...The stories of living a rural life.

[OJ]

Actually, it was quite common for the boys, at least to start driving around 8 - 10 years of age because tractors and pickups needed to be driven and it was just more practical for young cowboys to drive regularly

To funny. I was driving my dad's pickup, clutch w/three speed on the floor, pulling a flatbed while he walked along side and picked up hay bales. I was about eight years old at the time and couldn't sit on the seat to see where I was going at the same time I had to put the clutch in or hit the brake. I put the front end over the irrigation ditch berm and into the ditch. I felt bad, but I slipped on the clutch and by the time I got to it again I was already in deep water...The stories of living a rural life.

Yep - I know that experience well - lucky me - most of the time I managed to get out of it without anybody knowing - but, when caught, the ribbing was without any mercy.

Actually, driving a vehicle with an internal combustion engine was pretty tame compared to running a rake in the hay field at a brisk trot sunup to sundown - the auto could be stopped instantly with clutch/brake - not so with the youngest and friskiest team in the field - when the bumble bees were getting revenge for our disrupting their nest.

We quit early Saturday afternoon to take our weekly showers before going to town for the dance. Shower water supply consisted of a couple of 50 gallon barrels split in half lengthwise so the sun warmed our shower water. That usually caught me furthest from the facilities so I usually got only fresh COLD water.

One Saturday I had a plan - so I unhitched my team at quitting time and, holding the reins for one, I jumped on the back of the other to ride him in and beat those others to the warm water. Now, I've mentioned young cowboys were more competent physically than mentally and I forgot these were the very same horses we used in our rodeo for - yep - bucking horses. The horse I was on instantly reminded me - I kicked him in the ribs and suddenly, the horse collar was down around his ears and his ears were between his front feet and the ride suddenly turned very rough. Long story short - after I unloaded and ran my team down and led them home on foot - again - no hot water for me.

[kimwcook]

That's good, OJ. Life and times of the Katzenjammer kids.