Letter to Barnes Bullets

[handirifle]

I sent this out today, to see if there is any possibility of a positive response.

"Greetings,
Myself and quite a few others located in the "save the condor" zones of CA are wondering if Barnes would consider a special run of a 220-230gr TSX bullet, in .375 diameter suitable for use in a lever action 375 Winchester caliber, rifle, with a design like that of your offering for the 30-30?

I am aware that your bullets are CNC machined, and it would seem that just a slight modification of that program, to allow for the larger dia, and possible (probable?) length difference. We would form a "group buy" to make it worth your while, and for us to allow our 375's for something other than safe queens or target guns.

I have been working on modifying some of your, 270 and 300gr, .375 TSX bullets, one at a time, but due to retirement, moving, and building a new home, it got put on the back burner. The 270gr, cut to a flat nose hollow point, yields about a 220-230gr bullet, and can be seated quite far out and still feed reliably. Also, I have been using the pressure grooves as a crimp groove as well. However, since you already have your .308 program designed to make a crimp groove, it might not be a bad thing.

Please let me know if this is a feasible idea, and if so, what quantities and pricing would be expected. I'm sure others, not in the CA area, would also consider them due to the performance Barnes bullets have exibited in the past.

Apologies for the first letter, accidentally sent before proof reading.

Thanks for your consideration,

sincerely,"


We will see what we will see.

[Old Savage]

I remember your article and project and I would certainly like to see them produce a bullet but it probably would not have to be more than 180 gr with the retained weight that they have.

[handirifle]

Hey old friend. Thanks. I've been busy for the last year and a half. Retired, moved (a few times) tore down an old house, built a new one. My shop is now done outside and about 90% inside, so I WILL resume and resurect the old project soon, but figured I had nothing to lose with a letter.

Here's a few pics to see what we've been up to.
First the old. Some of these pics show the property (3 acres) and the new house doesn't but the new house sits on the same spot as the old one. The old one was built in 1920 and was so termite ridden, the floors were like sponges.

First one from the gate onto the property, the gate is on the west side of the property


same house from the north end of the property. You can see the south fence way off there if you look close


From the front porch of the old house, looking back at the gate in the first pic


The new house just after completion and before the shop and driveway were in


The new house, driveway and shop, as of Thanksgiving


We're pretty happy with the outcome, now we're just hoping Jerry brown doesn't find a way to repeal prop13 and force us out of our retirement house with rediculous property taxes.

My first plan will be to score the outside of the ogive on the bullets and try to get them to expand easily, that's where I left off.

[Old Savage]

Not sure how to make these links work and where are you now?

[handirifle]

I just fixed em. We live in Santa Margarita, CA, about 8 miles north of San Luis Obispo, off hwy 101. Absolutely beautiful up here. Of course I have the postage stamp of a lot, all my neighbors own 160 or so. Oh well, such is life. They are great people too.

[Old Savage]

Very nice!

[handirifle]

You should come visit sometime. If it's hot in the summer, we can take a 30 min drive and have lunch or dinner at Morro Bay. Bring the wife.

[El Chivo]

Good deal, you're about 30 minutes from the Los Padres area I've gone to hunt in the past.

How about 35 Rem? All they need to do is take down the nose of their 200 grain bullet and they'd have a 180 with a hollow point. And the darned thing would expand. Or make up their XPB pistol bullet in a .358 diameter instead of .357. That would be even better, because it would leave enough room in the case for a wicked rifle load.

One thing they might find important, part of their work is bullet development, including the testing, calculating the BC, working up loads. They didn't do this for 35 Rem because there aren't enough shooters out there for it. They might be reluctant to produce a bullet without doing this testing, and they might not be willing to do the testing for a small market. They might run into liability issues if they're handing out bullets without also providing safe loads for them.

Also, Barnes is now Remington, so good luck appealing to them for a custom run.

Another thing comes to mind, what if they were to sell you un-machined blanks in .375 or larger? Then you could find a gunsmith or shop with a CNC that could finish them to your specs. I remember talking to the guys at Brockman's about their sights, and they said with their new CNC they could make anything. Maybe you could get a CNC yourself and start making 35 Rem bullets too.

[Old Savage]

You are on, that would be a good time.

[Leverluver]

Other than the pure mono solids, Barnes bullets are not CNCed. They are impact extruded in a multi-stage punch press. I mention this to point out, no it is not easy to change to a different diameter or design. That would require many dies of new design for the press. Those dies and their setup is what costs a barrel full of money. It can easily take several days to properly set up a machine for one specific bullet and due to that, when it is set up, they want to run the same thing for a long time. That's the only way to make money.

I sent this out today, to see if there is any possibility of a positive response.

"Greetings,
Myself and quite a few others located in the "save the condor" zones of CA are wondering if Barnes would consider a special run of a 220-230gr TSX bullet, in .375 diameter suitable for use in a lever action 375 Winchester caliber, rifle, with a design like that of your offering for the 30-30?

I am aware that your bullets are CNC machined, and it would seem that just a slight modification of that program, to allow for the larger dia, and possible (probable?) length difference. We would form a "group buy" to make it worth your while, and for us to allow our 375's for something other than safe queens or target guns.

I have been working on modifying some of your, 270 and 300gr, .375 TSX bullets, one at a time, but due to retirement, moving, and building a new home, it got put on the back burner. The 270gr, cut to a flat nose hollow point, yields about a 220-230gr bullet, and can be seated quite far out and still feed reliably. Also, I have been using the pressure grooves as a crimp groove as well. However, since you already have your .308 program designed to make a crimp groove, it might not be a bad thing.

Please let me know if this is a feasible idea, and if so, what quantities and pricing would be expected. I'm sure others, not in the CA area, would also consider them due to the performance Barnes bullets have exibited in the past.

Apologies for the first letter, accidentally sent before proof reading.

Thanks for your consideration,

sincerely,"


We will see what we will see.

[O.S.O.K.]

Very nice ranch And good luck with your request.

[JFE]

FWIW if Barnes dont come through Woodleigh make their Hydrostatic solids in 375 to suit a 375 Win. Weight is 235gr. These bullets are not expanding bullets, however due to the tip shape perform somewhere in between soft point and solid bullets.

[Old Savage]

Well lever, that being the case, the choices are more or less 30-30 or 45/70 for tube lever guys. Next year I will be loading the 250 TSX and I will give it plenty of heat.

[handirifle]

FWIW if Barnes dont come through Woodleigh make their Hydrostatic solids in 375 to suit a 375 Win. Weight is 235gr. These bullets are not expanding bullets, however due to the tip shape perform somewhere in between soft point and solid bullets.

Looking at them, I'd say they MIGHT work, depends on how long they are from the crimp groove. Also, that nose may or may not feed well from a levergun.

[handirifle]

Very nice ranch And good luck with your request.

Thanks, and I just sent it out yesterday, so I'm sure it will be at least a few working day, at best. Usually takes them a week to respond to emails.

[handirifle]

Other than the pure mono solids, Barnes bullets are not CNCed. They are impact extruded in a multi-stage punch press. I mention this to point out, no it is not easy to change to a different diameter or design. That would require many dies of new design for the press. Those dies and their setup is what costs a barrel full of money. It can easily take several days to properly set up a machine for one specific bullet and due to that, when it is set up, they want to run the same thing for a long time. That's the only way to make money.

I sent this out today, to see if there is any possibility of a positive response.

"Greetings,
Myself and quite a few others located in the "save the condor" zones of CA are wondering if Barnes would consider a special run of a 220-230gr TSX bullet, in .375 diameter suitable for use in a lever action 375 Winchester caliber, rifle, with a design like that of your offering for the 30-30?

I am aware that your bullets are CNC machined, and it would seem that just a slight modification of that program, to allow for the larger dia, and possible (probable?) length difference. We would form a "group buy" to make it worth your while, and for us to allow our 375's for something other than safe queens or target guns.

I have been working on modifying some of your, 270 and 300gr, .375 TSX bullets, one at a time, but due to retirement, moving, and building a new home, it got put on the back burner. The 270gr, cut to a flat nose hollow point, yields about a 220-230gr bullet, and can be seated quite far out and still feed reliably. Also, I have been using the pressure grooves as a crimp groove as well. However, since you already have your .308 program designed to make a crimp groove, it might not be a bad thing.

Please let me know if this is a feasible idea, and if so, what quantities and pricing would be expected. I'm sure others, not in the CA area, would also consider them due to the performance Barnes bullets have exibited in the past.

Apologies for the first letter, accidentally sent before proof reading.

Thanks for your consideration,

sincerely,"


We will see what we will see.

I understand what you're saying, and yes long runs are needed for profit, but I know I saw a video a year or so ago, that the CNC WAS drilling out the centers. Oh, well never hurts to ask. I still have other ideas rattlin around upstairs too.

[model55]

Welcome! neighbor-I'm just eight miles down the road but not to worry I won't tell and drive down the property values!Looks like you've done a great job out there .Hope you get a positive answer from barnes would like to see them do a few other things levergun oriented.

[new pig hunter]

Handi,

Excellent Letter !!

Cheers,

Carl

[AJMD429]

If all else fails, perhaps you could use a sabot to enable the .358" bullet to be used in the .375 bore...?

[handirifle]

If all else fails, perhaps you could use a sabot to enable the .358" bullet to be used in the .375 bore...?

Never tried the sabot idea, haven't heard a lot of good in the accuracy dept, concerning sabots. Besides, there's no real non-lead bullet for the .358's that is levergun suitable either.

I have been talking over some of my ideas with Dave Corbin, concerning dies and presses. Money is tight right now, but maybe after tax season, I will know more where that part stands.

I'm looking into a formed bullet design, instead of a machined one. I think production costs would be lower, and faster.

[Lobo]

Handi,

Keep us informed, I've a brother with a Marlin 336 in 375 Win who'd be interested.

[handirifle]

Handi,

Keep us informed, I've a brother with a Marlin 336 in 375 Win who'd be interested.

Lobo,
Will do. I have an old thread on this that I will resurect when I actually have some real information. That way, you can see all my flounderings....

[Mike D.]

Barnes would have to keep the bullets short enough to load with out compressing the powder charge to dangerous levels. I have used the 235 grain Barnes TSX in my .38-56 W.C.F. 1886 ELW rifle. Cutting 1/8" off of the tip provides a flat enough point and the short length allows it to not be set too deep in the case. The gun has a tight .375 bore and nickel steel barrel so stoking it to excess of 2000 FPS is not a problem. You can expect the TSX to exhibit higher velocity than a jacketed lead bullet of the same weight and to print as much as 6-10" higher on paper at 100 yds. Once your gun is sighted for the Barnes TSX that's all you will need. They expand well and kill cleanly. Hopefully, Barnes will "see the light" and consider making a wider range of bullets for levergun cartridges. They are the future, with lead to be completely outlawed within a few years.

[El Chivo]

If all else fails, perhaps you could use a sabot to enable the .358" bullet to be used in the .375 bore...?

or how about paper patching? I thought about this when I tried to seat their .357 XPB in a 35 Rem case. It was loose, you could turn it easily with your hands. I thought maybe a cigarette paper would bring the thickness up to fit in the case and the bore. But, an experiment for another time - at least I DO have a functional bullet with their 200 grainer.

[handirifle]

I have tried many things with the TSX's but couldn't get them to expand properly, and that was after drilling out the center quite a bit. Part of the issue is, the .375 dia TSX bullets in production, are designed with a MINIMUM velocity of 1900 fps to reliably expand. The 375 Win doesn't start out a whole lot faster than that anyway.

I believe their 150gr flat point, for the 30-30 and the heavier 250 and 300gr, bullets for the 45-70, open at a min of around 1100fps. Their designs are worlds apart from the std TSX. In CA, the rules still say an EXPANDING bullet, for hunting. I'm working towards something non lead, and that will reliably expand at levergun velocities. That's my goal anyway.

I'm very much aware of the pro's and cons of the TSX design, and loads. There's much good to be gained, IF they're accurate in your gun.

Here's the old thread, that I will start posting in again, once I start up work again.
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... sc&start=0

Still haven't heard from barnes on my letter yet. I'm not giving up on this project, but I know I am snail slow, especially for those of us wanting to hunt with the good ole caliber.

[NorthFork]

Hello,

If Barnes doesn't get back to you, we can probably help you out. Send us an email and we can talk about what your needs are and make you some condor friendly bullets for your rifle. info@northforkbullets.com

Regards,
Franz (North Fork bullets)

[Mike D.]

Handi, I would definitely take Franz from North Fork up on that offer. I will probably contact him for some .338 for the .33 W.C.F. and .406 for .40-82 W.C.F. This is what happens when a 250 Barnes fired from a .45-90 Winchester at 2200 FPS hits a deer, penetrates through, destroys the heart and lungs, and exits to somewhere in the distance. Huge exit, but little meat damage. Buck DRN.

[handirifle]

Hello,

If Barnes doesn't get back to you, we can probably help you out. Send us an email and we can talk about what your needs are and make you some condor friendly bullets for your rifle. info@northforkbullets.com

Regards,
Franz (North Fork bullets)

Franz,
Thanks, I will do for sure. This link will let you know where I was going with it. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... sc&start=0 After talking to Dave Corbin, he feels that four or five scoring lines on the outside might get it done. Give you an idea of what I was concentrating on. I have no doubt I will hear back from them, but whether or not they will do it, is a nuther animal.

Mike, nice, never doubted their effectiveness. Suprised you used the little 250 and not the 300 though, not that it was needed. Seems like the 300 would carry better, out yonder. How far away was that, and how far would you use it? Would it be good to 200? That would be about my limit I think.

[Mike D.]

Handi, the 300 grain Barnes TSX is considerably longer than the 250 and requires a reduced powder charge or you end up with a seriously compressed load. The deer at our place seldom weigh over 160 lbs, so my preference is for lighter bullets driven at higher velocities. The 250s are accurate out to 200 yds, the longest shot I have made with a 1886. I do have a box of .45-70s loaded with the 300s to use for pigs.

[Old Savage]

By comparison, this buck was hit 3 times in the chest/lung area at an IMPACT of about 1700 fps with a 300 TSX. The offside doesn't look any different. Next time I would load the 250 to about 2100.

[handirifle]

Mike, thanks, love these reports. Well i sure thought the 250 would be maybe too light for longer distances, but sounds like I need to get some for a try.

Savage, THREE times? Did he keep running or was it target practice ?

I'd bet those 250's would most likely do in the pigs too.

I'm thinking when I get a "green" 220gr for the 375 I might test the expansion out on these ground squirrels, oh wait, I'm supposed to see if the BULLETS will expand .

[Old Savage]

Think in terms of retained weight compared with a conventional bullet. They move up a notch or two. At least that has been our experience with the condor bullets in a variety of calibers down here. BC doesn't change enough to be an issue and the trade off often favors the lighter bullet.

[Dave B]

Maybe we should ask about 348 bullets as well since the Model 71 will be returning.

Dave B

[TMair]

Maybe we should ask about 348 bullets as well since the Model 71 will be returning.

Dave B

I mentioned this in the 348 thread, just went to Sportsman's Warehouse to pick up a gun safe and they had some of Hornady's new run of 348, 200 gr. FP in stock, there where just two boxes on the shelf so I only came home with two boxes, anyway just thought I would mention it.
Terry

[handirifle]

Maybe we should ask about 348 bullets as well since the Model 71 will be returning.

Dave B

I mentioned this in the 348 thread, just went to Sportsman's Warehouse to pick up a gun safe and they had some of Hornady's new run of 348, 200 gr. FP in stock, there where just two boxes on the shelf so I only came home with two boxes, anyway just thought I would mention it.
Terry

If those are not lead free, that can't use them here, unfortunately.

[El Chivo]

by the way, muzzleloaders like their bullets.

How about making up a sabot and using one of their smaller caliber bullets.

By the way, the 30-30 expands at 1400 and the XPB's expand at 800 fps. So there's a case when the .357 mag will expand farther out than the 30-30.

I may try out the pistol bullet this spring, we may go to a ranch and hunt "tame game". I'm getting curious about performance of the 140 grainer, might be a good time to try it out.

[handirifle]

by the way, muzzleloaders like their bullets.

How about making up a sabot and using one of their smaller caliber bullets.

By the way, the 30-30 expands at 1400 and the XPB's expand at 800 fps. So there's a case when the .357 mag will expand farther out than the 30-30.

I may try out the pistol bullet this spring, we may go to a ranch and hunt "tame game". I'm getting curious about performance of the 140 grainer, might be a good time to try it out.

OK I may have been off on the 1100, thought I'd read that from Barnes. I have total confidence in the XPB bullets, expanding, but it's the accuracy of a patched bullet I wonder about. I know it does an excellent job on the big lead slugs, but these TSX bullets, pistol or rifle, just do not expand, or bump up (in the barrel, not the game) worth a darn. Now maybe a hollowed out base like the old mini balls, might do it, but then you're looking at a very light projectile.

In addition, you have to keep an eye on fouling. good luck with them.

[Mike D.]

[OK I may have been off on the 1100, thought I'd read that from Barnes. I have total confidence in the XPB bullets, expanding, but it's the accuracy of a patched bullet I wonder about. I know it does an excellent job on the big lead slugs, but these TSX bullets, pistol or rifle, just do not expand, or bump up (in the barrel, not the game) worth a darn. Now maybe a hollowed out base like the old mini balls, might do it, but then you're looking at a very light projectile.

In addition, you have to keep an eye on fouling. good luck with them.[/quote]

I wouldn't let the game know that. If the buck I dropped with my old .45-90 had been aware that they don't expand he might still be alive and kicking. Although the bullet was long gone it must have expanded tremendously to do the damage that it did. The buck's lungs were totally foamed and he dropped on the spot. The blood spot on his shoulder is the entry; you saw the off side while we were skinnin' him.

[TMair]

Maybe we should ask about 348 bullets as well since the Model 71 will be returning.

Dave B

I mentioned this in the 348 thread, just went to Sportsman's Warehouse to pick up a gun safe and they had some of Hornady's new run of 348, 200 gr. FP in stock, there where just two boxes on the shelf so I only came home with two boxes, anyway just thought I would mention it.
Terry

If those are not lead free, that can't use them here, unfortunately.

yeah my mistake.
I was just so excited to find them come to find out they must have just found them in the back and put them out, they are not in the new boxes.
Sorry about that.
Terry

[handirifle]

[OK I may have been off on the 1100, thought I'd read that from Barnes. I have total confidence in the XPB bullets, expanding, but it's the accuracy of a patched bullet I wonder about. I know it does an excellent job on the big lead slugs, but these TSX bullets, pistol or rifle, just do not expand, or bump up (in the barrel, not the game) worth a darn. Now maybe a hollowed out base like the old mini balls, might do it, but then you're looking at a very light projectile.

In addition, you have to keep an eye on fouling. good luck with them.

I wouldn't let the game know that. If the buck I dropped with my old .45-90 had been aware that they don't expand he might still be alive and kicking. Although the bullet was long gone it must have expanded tremendously to do the damage that it did. The buck's lungs were totally foamed and he dropped on the spot. The blood spot on his shoulder is the entry; you saw the off side while we were skinnin' him.[/quote]

Mike,
not questioning the effectiveness of a solid, especially in 45 cal, just refering to the legality of it. CA regs state expanding. Nice buck, by the way. Where was that taken?

[Mike D.]

The ranch is in San Benito Co, 40 miles south of Hollister. TSXs are not solids, they are hollow points.

[handirifle]

[OK I may have been off on the 1100, thought I'd read that from Barnes. I have total confidence in the XPB bullets, expanding, but it's the accuracy of a patched bullet I wonder about. I know it does an excellent job on the big lead slugs, but these TSX bullets, pistol or rifle, just do not expand, or bump up (in the barrel, not the game) worth a darn. Now maybe a hollowed out base like the old mini balls, might do it, but then you're looking at a very light projectile.

In addition, you have to keep an eye on fouling. good luck with them.

I wouldn't let the game know that. If the buck I dropped with my old .45-90 had been aware that they don't expand he might still be alive and kicking. Although the bullet was long gone it must have expanded tremendously to do the damage that it did. The buck's lungs were totally foamed and he dropped on the spot. The blood spot on his shoulder is the entry; you saw the off side while we were skinnin' him.[/quote]


Sorry, that part threw me off. Didn't know it was a TSX

[El Chivo]

well, the regs say you have to use expanding bullets. They don't say the bullets have to expand in the critter at the velocity you hit him with. As long as they have the design potential to expand, I think you're compliant.

Jacketed lead spire point bullets also need a lot of velocity to expand and sometimes on long shots they don't. Still legal to use.

[Mike D.]

well, the regs say you have to use expanding bullets. They don't say the bullets have to expand in the critter at the velocity you hit him with. As long as they have the design potential to expand, I think you're compliant.

Jacketed lead spire point bullets also need a lot of velocity to expand and sometimes on long shots they don't. Still legal to use.

No, they are very illegal in Condor Country. All bullets in the "zone" must be lead free. They are OK for now in the rest of the state.

[dandee]

Always another option maybe we can get them to do a .375?
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win- ... evolution/