OT-young lady ccw

[Marlin32]

Both daughters wanting a handgun, one lives in California, (I know, always trying to get her back) the other right here in Neb but soon to be in Corpus Christi, husband travels some is alone alot. (I don't like it, neither does she)

The one in Cal has fired pistols, likes the Glocks, thinking of buying her a Springfield XD in 40, or a Glock in 40 if she is stuck on Glocks.

The younger one is a bit smaller in stature and less familiar with guns in general.
I am want her to have a revolver, no problems, no thinking, just pull trigger.

I am soliciting opinions as I know many on this site have knowledge and expertise in this area, I value all opinions.

I am leaning towards 32H&R Mag, or 327 fed Possibly 38sp (If I could find a really nice condition 32 colt Pocket Positive with short barrel, would buy her one and myself one!)

What are the opinions of Taurus?? Charter Arms?? I am familiar with Ruger but is a bit on heavy side and maybe a longer barrel than I want.

Any suggestions or comments??

[RIHMFIRE]

take a look at the smith and wesson airlights....
perfect for carrying in a purse...

[Hobie]

Get the little girl a J-Frame .22 WRFM and get the CA girl a change of venue.

[kimwcook]

My experience in dealing with this situation, a number of times, is that if it isn't small and light, most people, women especially, will tire of it very quickly and eventually won't carry it at all. Now, that isn't an issue at home, but if they're looking to carry 24/7 then small and light is the way to go and a revolver is the first choice. Now I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on the fairer sex here. They usually don't wear the same attire men wear, belts, pockets, etc... They usually have small purses and clutches to carry their sidearm in. They just aren't very big to carry a handgun (plus the other essentials) and they get heavy carrying them in their hands or over one shoulder. Revolvers are relatively just point and shoot, semi-autos on the other hand may have safeties, misfeeds, fail to extract, etc... That one needs to become proficient in dealing with (practice).

[jdad]

IIRC,
The CA girl needs to get her "handgun competency" card first. Nothing more than a tax and registration that has to be renewed every couple of years, then she can only buy from the CA DOJ "approved" handgun list. The list changes often since manufactures have to pay several thousand dollars per gun they want listed, so CA can do a drop test.

[Dave]

For your California girl, if she likes Glocks I would just get her what she wants and likes. For your other girl I would stick with a 38 Special. The ammo is a lot easier to find and probably cheaper than the 32 stuff. A "J" or "K" frame Smith loaded with non +P ammo might be a good idea. Even a 38 wadcutter will make a hole right through a man most of the time and kick very little.

Summit Gun Broker often has good deals on used guns if you have someone who will do your transfers.

[Kansas Ed]

I have the Taurus Ultra-Lite in .38, and my buddy bought the Charter Undercover .38 about the same time. Both are CCH guns for us. Both are surprisingly accurate, lite to carry. When comparing the two, my Taurus seems to have a better trigger and better (smaller) factory grips, but his Charter has a better designed hammer spur. So it's really a toss up between the two. Either will work very well for the intended purpose.

I am currently switching back and forth between my Taurus, and a Walther PPK/S. IMO the Walther is one of the top auto's for comfortable carry and ease of use. The Walther decocker used to make me nervous, but now I'm thinking that it's a safer system than the alternative.

Ed

[earlmck]

Some years ago I faced the same deal with my bride. Was going to get a nice light 38 revolver. She tried out my choice (nice S&W) and couldn't pull the trigger double action! Yeah, I know she could with some adrenaline going, but still.... So we walked around the whole Reno gun-show and she tried the trigger pull on about eleventyseven different guns. The little Baretta 86 in 380 "talked" to her. Not what I would have picked at all, but she shoots it real fine, and it is definitely her gun.

I'm not advising you to get the Baretta. I'm just suggesting you take the daughter down to a friendly gun store or gun show and let her pick out the one that "talks" to her. No problem with the California daughter: the glock has already spoken to her.

[mikld]

I'm not an expert on CCW, but I do like pocket guns.The one requirement I have is that the gun won't pull my pants down when carried in the back pocket of my Levis. My Taurus M85 has a lot of miles on it and has never failed to fire. I have an older Davis 380 that loves to collect pocket lint and on rare occations will jam (keep it clean and it'll shoot forever). But, if I was going to suggest a handgun to my Granddaughter, I might point her in Ruger's LCR direction, and of course S&W J-frames. IMO semi-autos are like a progressive loading press; a good tool for the experienced user, but confusing to the less experienced (too many things to consider at one time, vs point-'n-shoot)

[Grizz]

I will second the comment on the trigger pull of the J frame. My wife bought a smith 642 and the trigger pull is so hard for her that she can't hold a sight picture thru the firing sequence. Maybe the .22 airlight has a lighter trigger?

I gave her a ruger lcp. While the trigger pull is easy for her, she is actually having trouble cycling the slide. She can do it, but it's not easy for hands with carpel tunnel issues. My daughter has the same issue with the lcp slide. She also has serious carpel tunnel issues. Something else to consider.

Regards
Grizz

PS: the LCP is just as point-and-shoot as a revolver once it's in condition 1.

PPS: I just checked out my wife with the xd9sc, and she can easily cycle that slide. It does have a lighter spring, but maybe the huge slide, compared to the mouse gun, gives her a better grip. And maybe she will get better with the lcp with more training.

[AJMD429]

My experience in dealing with this situation, a number of times, is that if it isn't small and light, most people, women especially, will tire of it very quickly and eventually won't carry it at all.

Yep. Seen that with several friends and relatives.

I would note that purse-carry isn't a good idea, though sometimes it's better than no-carry; it does create safety, logistic, and legal issues in some cases, though.

Practical and reasonable 'fanny packs' can be a much better alternative, and the 'non-gun' ones are much less expensive so they can have ones to match the particular fashion-moment. (Unless they've been previously assaulted and understand the reality, it seems most women would rather 'die' than be caught with an un-fashionable 'fanny pack' that clashes with their outfit... ) With non-gun fanny packs though, the gun needs to be even smaller, to fit in what is usually intended as a "separate compartment for cell phone, credit cards, etc.". Sometimes that may mean a flatter and less-vulnerable-to-loose-stuff-in-the-same-comparment semiauto vs. a revolver.

For the 'shooter' type kid, I'd get them whatever they are competent and comfortable with that is reliable, and reasonably comfortable/concealable. Any 'power level' equal or above the .22 WMR I'd be comfortable with, because it absolutely must be available and on their person when they need it, and if it isn't small enough to be comfortable/concealable, it will be at home, and a 1911 in the gun safe is worthless vs. one of these in the pocket:


If at all possible, however, I think a double-action revolver would be better, but you get my point.

Whatever they get, mandate they shoot 100 to 500 rounds of ammunition right away, so they're confident in themself and the gun, the action is 'smoothed' in, and they have 'muscle memory' trained.

Remind them both that their gun choice is NOT a permanent one, and they can and should 'update' the gun if their needs change. They might even want TWO guns eventually - one for more concealed carry, and the other for home/automobile use.

I think we (as 'gun' enthusiasts) focus too much on the make and model, and sometimes would better advise new shooters to spend money on things like CrimsonTrace laser grips. If a woman is knocked down or injured and can't get a Weaver-stance sight-picture, that utterly-reliable and rugged name-brand revolver or semiauto will be FAR less useful to her than a beat-up-but-reliable generic-brand with good laser sights. Ever try to shoot a coffee-can at 10 yards, lying on the ground, with your non-dominant hand, when you can't even get in position to line up your sights? Try it with and without a set of CrimsonTrace's on your gun and then you'll see what she might face out in some parking lot, with the additional factors of being hurt, and in mid-fight. A NAA Mini in .22 WMR with their goofy-looking little laser sight would potentially be more useful then, than a S&W Combat Masterpiece without one.

For the non-shooter, if you can get her some range-time with borrowed guns, find out what she likes - preferably using .22 LR-only guns of the various action types (longer barrels at first, even if longer than she'd actually wind up carrying, to reduce recoil to bare-minimum), and being SURE she has good hearing protection (noise and recoil make flinching worse). Once she has a feel for the action-type she is comfortable with it (including not just the shooting, but the loading/unloading and de-cocking/de-chambering, etc.), THEN expand on that theme if possible, letting her shoot more firearms of that type, with different weights and chamberings, saving the powerful/light guns for last. (I've done this with gun-naive individuals who go from never having shot ANY gun, to grinning just like 'we' do when they touch off a .44 Mag Redhawk and hit a 5-gallon bucket at 50 yards, and if you have the guns ready and spend the first 2 hours with nothing but .22 LR, the whole session only takes 4-5 hours).

For a 'newbie' who likes semiautos, I think the .380 is the maximum they will likely get comfortable with recoil-wise, unless they are ok with toting a full-size Taurus PT-92 or some such gun. The Ruger LCP .380 with built-in laser, IF it fits her hands, would be worth considering:
http://ruger.com/products/lcp/models.html

For a 'newbie' who likes revolvers, the width/bulk sure can pose 'concealment' problems, but if they can work that out, then it's really hard to beat a double-action .357 with whatever length barrel they'll be able to carry (usually 2"). The .357's will be a tad heavier than the same guns in .38 special, but that will translate to less recoil, and offer the ability to use 'hotter' .38 special loads or even .357 mag loads down the road. The weight-savings of lighter .38 specials over the same guns in .357 don't seem all that great, but let her decide.

As for the .32 revolvers, the biggest advantage I see is the availability of 6 shots vs. 5, and God forbid a woman would ever suffer harm because the first five shots didn't do the job, but the factory ammunition is harder to find and more expensive, and for equivalent stopping power, the recoil may be as much or greater than the .38/.357 guns. I don't think there is much savings in weight or 'bulk' (may be wrong on that), unless there are some 5-shot .32's that are significantly smaller in width than the .38's.

The NorthAmerican Mini-revolvers with the clip-grips are PERFECT for a woman who wants something to have when jogging, yet refuses to wear a fanny-pack or holster (understandibly, if she's a serious runner), but due to having to manipulate the hammer before firing, and due to the placing of the hammer in-between chambers needed for safe carry (not something a 'newbie' will be all that safe doing until she's handled the gun quite a bit so it is intuitive), I'm not a big fan of them for primary CCW (but every woman should have one in her 'armory' ).

Again, whatever she gets, she should shoot LOTS of ammunition through it early on, have a laser sight on it, and figure out several comfy carry options. In addition I encourage such folks to get a GunVault or similar rapid-access safe, but remind them that whenever the gun is not ON their person, it is nothing but a liability that can get stolen or used by someone else to intentionally or accidentally harm someone.

Get the little girl a J-Frame .22 WRFM and get the CA girl a change of venue.

That sums it up well.

Whatever they get, remind them that in the movies, you always hear scary music to warn you something bad is about to happen, but that doesn't happen in the real-world. Have them read Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme - it isn't heavy into 'technique' but rather 'mindset', legalities, and ways to avoid or de-escalate, but when avoidance fails, 'terminating, with extreme prejudice'.

[jeepnik]

Being the only Californian to speak up so far, my suggestion is a S&W model 60-15. It's a stainless steel, 5 shot, J frame with a 3" barreled .357. I don't know where she lives, but in the larger cities, whe won't be getting a CCW. The J frame grip works well for smaller hands. Stainless steel does make it easier to take care of, and if she's not into firearms, she's not likely to lavish it with care. The 3" barrel is a good compromise (she may someday be able to get a CCW, and 3" barrels aren't any harder to conceal than a 2"). Yes, it's a .357 mag, but she can then find a load, 38spl or 357 that she is comfortable with.

One final thing. Spend a few bucks and put a Crimson Trace Laser grip on it. She may well not be one that practices alot, and the lasers do help. Then again, there is the intimidation factor of the laser.

[Marlin32]

Thanks. I knew I could count on some comments.
Been on line looking at pocket guns, I am starting to lean toward the Ruger LCR with the laser grip. Light weight, I like idea of the laser target system, 38 special should be easily found, especially light stuff for practice.

What I really would like to do is try out several and then pick one, but most stores I know frown on that! Ha! Place in Omaha, indoor range, might need to take her there and see if we can shoot some. HEck, I might buy the LCR myself, if she likes it and can shoot it, then great!

[Paladin]

Being the only Californian to speak up so far, my suggestion is a S&W model 60-15. It's a stainless steel, 5 shot, J frame with a 3" barreled .357. I don't know where she lives, but in the larger cities, whe won't be getting a CCW. The J frame grip works well for smaller hands. Stainless steel does make it easier to take care of, and if she's not into firearms, she's not likely to lavish it with care. The 3" barrel is a good compromise (she may someday be able to get a CCW, and 3" barrels aren't any harder to conceal than a 2"). Yes, it's a .357 mag, but she can then find a load, 38spl or 357 that she is comfortable with.

One final thing. Spend a few bucks and put a Crimson Trace Laser grip on it. She may well not be one that practices alot, and the lasers do help. Then again, there is the intimidation factor of the laser.

+1

[AJMD429]

What I really would like to do is try out several and then pick one, but most stores I know frown on that! Ha! Place in Omaha, indoor range, might need to take her there and see if we can shoot some. HEck, I might buy the LCR myself, if she likes it and can shoot it, then great!

With the good re-sale value of most guns, and the nearly universal usefulness of 'CCW' guns of all types and sizes, you could go through quite a few bought/sold/traded firearms pretty quickly, or if you have 1-2k to 'invest', having six or seven 'pocket guns' your family can pick and choose from over the years will NOT necessarily be a bad thing. Might be more useful than the same amount of money in the bank earning one per cent interest while inflation more than eats it up...

[BobM]

I agree with the laser grip suggestions. I'd consider getting the CA girl a Glock 19 or the 26 instead of the equivalent models in 40S&W. The J or K frame 38 for the other makes a lot of sense too. I'd stick with 38 and/or 9mm as opposed to the 32s simply for the ease of finding practice ammo.

[tman]

Kel-tec .32 ACP. Loaded with Buffaloe Bore hardcast, it shoot clean thru the chest or head. Alternate the magazine with hollowpoints and she's ready to go.l

[Hobie]

Being the only Californian to speak up so far, my suggestion is a S&W model 60-15. It's a stainless steel, 5 shot, J frame with a 3" barreled .357. I don't know where she lives, but in the larger cities, whe won't be getting a CCW. The J frame grip works well for smaller hands. Stainless steel does make it easier to take care of, and if she's not into firearms, she's not likely to lavish it with care. The 3" barrel is a good compromise (she may someday be able to get a CCW, and 3" barrels aren't any harder to conceal than a 2"). Yes, it's a .357 mag, but she can then find a load, 38spl or 357 that she is comfortable with.

One final thing. Spend a few bucks and put a Crimson Trace Laser grip on it. She may well not be one that practices alot, and the lasers do help. Then again, there is the intimidation factor of the laser.

I have recommended the Ruger SP101 for the same reason EXCEPT that the extra weight of the little tank serves to moderate recoil.

I've had a lot of women come through the shop and look at guns. I had one lady who was so weak I wondered aloud as to how she drove to the store or opened her car door. She had trouble with single action triggers on any gun! I had a great grandma come in to buy ammo for the .44 Mag she carried in her purse, she said she'd used her last box all up. Yep, .44 Mags. You never can tell what any individual can do until you try them.

[gundownunder]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked here is the question of whether or not the girls can pull the trigger if the need arises. If they pull the gun and then don't have the willpower to pull the trigger, the scumbag will take the gun and use it against them.

[alnitak]

Been through this discussion a number of times on http://www.defensivecarry.com forum. A couple of things to consider --

-- Pocket pistols like the LCP and P3AT are much harder to control and have more felt recoil than larger pistols. Having said that, a .380 in the pocket (or even a .32) is better than a .38 left home. Also look at the Diamondback (better grip and sights) and the Kahr P380 (my preference) in this caliber.
-- Consider 9mm rather than .40. In small pistols, the .40 has a lot more kick, and the guns are typically larger/heavier. Also, ammo is more expensive, which may impact the amount of practice. In 9mm, look at the new Taurus 709 Slim (very comfortable), the Kahr PM9 (smallest of the bunch) and the Walther PPS.
-- For the novice, a .38 snub is a good option...the LCR or S&W Nightguards are good choices. Stay away from +P or .357 with novice shooters.
-- I wouldn't worry too much about semi vs. revolver. They both operate simply enough by just a trigger pull once loaded, and she can work up to clearing misfeeds, etc. as she becomes more familiar with the pistol. I have heard of instances where a woman didn't have the strength to rack the slide, though that shouldn't be an issue for younger, stronger women who are taught proper technique. Here's one example by Limatunes http://www.youtube.com/user/limalife
-- As Hobie said...you never can tell. Many women prefer a full sized pistol, like the Glock 19, to a small pistol.
-- Have both your girls read the Cornered Cat site (http://www.corneredcat.com/) and check out Limatunes on the Defensive Carry forum for a woman's perspective on carrying as well as dressing around the gun and options for carry (e.g., many women like shoulder holsters).

[damienph]

I have two blue steel 5 shot, 2", 38 special revolvers. One is a Rossi and the other is a Taurus. They both are very good shooters, not too heavy for my wife to carry in her purse, or drop into her jacket pocket. They are both very controllable for her, even shooting 125 gr plus P ammo.

The "lite" or "Ultra Lite" revolvers are too hard for her to contol, and are certainly no fun to practice with. She has tried several small frame autos fom 22LR, 32 ACP and 380ACP, the revolvers have always been the easiest for her to shoot. No safety to worry about, just point and pull the trigger until empty.

[wilko]

Women are funny.. what YOU think is best will probably end up unused.. let them decide what they want. Have them handle several guns.. they will make the decision.

think long and hard about the airweight J-frames.. my wife refuses to shoot ours in .38 special because of the harsh recoil unless i load my ultra mild reloads.. Do not buy one before the ladies have shot one and are comfortable with the recoil..

the wife loves to shoot the 9mm taurus which is 100% reliable so far.. She also loves the Beretta bobcat .22 which i would not recommend as a carry/defense handgun

[AJMD429]

If they pull the gun and then don't have the willpower to pull the trigger, the scumbag will take the gun and use it against them.

Actually, that's almost unheard of (except on television) - even the anti-gun California Dept. of Justice tried in the 70's to 'prove' that phenomenon, and analyzed something like 20,000 rape cases, and found not one where the gun was taken away and used against the woman.

I definitely AGREE on the 'mindset' being necessary, though!

Even in the rare cases the victim was disarmed, she seemed to suffer no different degree or nature of harm than had she not been, when she had a gun. Other items like knives DO tend to be used against the victim, and a forensic pathologist once told me he'd several times removed 'pepper spray' cans that had been inserted into victims he was autopsying.

[Ray Newman]

Marlin32: exactly where does your daughter live in CA?

I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for over 30 years, and in some counties, it is almost impossible to be issued a CCW permit.

[rodeo kid]

I would go with one of the new polymer S&W Bodyguard 38's with the laser. Davidson's has them on sale this month and my local dealer shot me a price of $399 so I had him order one. I paid $575 last January For a Ruger LCR with Crimson Trace grips and this S&W is every bit as nice for $175 less and is rated for +p. I had a hard time at first buying the Ruger as I love blued steel and wood but that is what my wife wanted so I went with it. Am used to it now and it has been a good purchase so I thought I would try the S&W. God Bless.

[MrMurphy]

Skip the wheelgun.

If they're intelligent enough to drive a car, they are intelligent enough to run an auto.

If the one in CA even has the option of carrying, an LCP for an 'all the time' gun backed up by a G17 or G19 for the house/car/etc.

The other one would do well to carry the same.

If they absolutely positively can't figure out inserting one big piece of metal and moving another back and forth before pulling the trigger is needed to make the gun go bang, they don't have the brains to insert five or six little pieces of metal and close a cylinder.


Especially with female body types, autos are easier to hide. If the daughters are impressively equipped in the frontal area by nature, they could more or less hide a 6" .44 Magnum (seen a few ladies use the natural distractors to hide some big pieces) but something in the line of a Kahr P9, Walther PPS, PPk or similar is about as big as most women are willing to go with without major modifications to their wardrobe.

Helped quite a few girls figure out the gun thing, this is common sense.

If they MUST go with a wheelgun, a 642 Airweight is about as light as you can go and still remain comfortably shootable. An LCR or the new Bodyguard also would work. For a belt gun, a 3" 66 is about perfect, but it's bigger and heavier than a Glock 19 (15 vs 6), so.....

[DerekR]

My last CDNN flyer had a sale on Taurus model 85s in .327/.32 Mag. In the $250 range or so.