38-ex / 38-90

[Lee Mitchell]

Just by chance, does anyone have 38 express / 38-90 brass? Or maybe know where I could get a few? I have this old highwall that shoots it and try to find some in re-loadable shape when ever I get a shot. Its hard to find.

[Don McDowell]

Have you tried just forming your own from something basic like 50-110 brass?

[JReed]

Pricey stuff but I found some for you. http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,220.html

[Kansas Ed]

Don,
Is the .38 Exp based on the 50-100/110 or is it based on the 45-90? Not familiar with that cartridge myself...but it sounds like a neat round.

Ed

[Don McDowell]

I was thinking it was like the rest of the express's and based off the 50 case, but looking at the demensions, looks like the best bet would be 9.3x74 brass. Think Norma had some basic for that awhile back. Might check with Jamison and Huntingtons.

[gunner69]

Over $6 just for a case? Check with Starline instead, they may be able to help. Good Luck.

[Thunder50]

Might do a chamber cast. I thought somewhere it was said that the 9.3 x 74R was based off the 38-90. If so, maybe you could re-form some 9.3 x 74R brass or use 405 basic brass.

[KWK]

I thought Bertram made it, but apparently not. The Buffalo brass is reformed, likely from 9.3x74R, but should work for you. I recall GOEX has a line of load data. It ought to be a hoot to shoot.

[Don McDowell]

Huntingtons lists the 9.3x74 r Norma cases. Should work alright. They're not cheap but better than not being able to shoot.
.http://www.huntingtons.com/cases_norma.html

[JFE]

According to Nonte's book on cartridge conversions, it can be formed from 9.3X74, but the cases will be quite short as the case length is 3.25".

Dimensions:

Rim diameter: 0.526
Head diameter: 0.477
Neck diameter: 0.395
Case length: 3.25
No spec given for rim thickness.

Quote
"Expand neck to 0.375, fireform and use 0.375 bullets.
This case will be quite a bit short, so seat bullets out."
Unquote

[kimwcook]

Anyone have a picture of the case and/or loaded cartridge they could share. I've never heard of this one. Yeah, I'm ignorant.

[Mike D.]

There is information in "Giles & Shuey, 100 Years Of Winchester Cartridge Boxes, 1856-1956", I shows the cartridge on the 10 rd boxes and the current value today. The long "Express" cartridges, 38-90, 40-110, and 45-125 were only used in the Model 1885 Single Shot, being far too long to function in a repeater. They were loaded into the latter years on the first decade of the 20th C before being dropped. In today's collector market each cartridge is worth between $40 and $60.

[KWK]

Anyone have a picture of the case and/or loaded cartridge they could share.

The site of Spain's cartridge collectors association has what must be the best cartridge collection on the web. When you get there, click on "Fuego Central / CF" and then select your range of caliber. Their picture of one:



As others have noted, it's 3.25" long. The Spanish site includes a drawing (in metric) of each cartridge. The cartridge write up is often just a translation of Frank Barnes' Cartridges of the World.

I think it was James Grant who wrote the .38-90 was a "thrill" to shoot. I have a rolling block being made for which I'd made inquiries about chambering in a BPE wildcat based on the 9.3x74R necked to .357; the .38-90 was the inspiration, of course. In the end, I decided I don't know enough about BPE to put such an expensive project to, and the gun is being made in .30-40 -- which per British .303 practice, I can still load as a BPE!

[kimwcook]

Thanks, KWK. Looks like it would be a real zipper compared to the bigger rounds of the day.

[KWK]

Actually, it was not an especially high speed round, "only" 1600 fps. The case capacity relative to the bore is not as large as, say, the .450-400 BPE, nor was Winchester as adventuresome as the Brits were in this field. Some British BPE rounds could reach 2000 fps.

Separately, regarding the price of Buffalo's reformed brass: I certainly wouldn't complain about the price! They've set up to make tooling for what will be a low volume product. This was a very rare chambering, and I'd be tickled that any brass at all is available.

Given the price, though, a custom reloading die to exactly match your chamber cast might well be in order. I've read a few comments that reformed brass in general doesn't have the best life, so treating it to the bare minimum in resizing should be a worthwhile expense. With a properly matched die, you'd only need to neck size, and annealing would then further extend case life.

[kimwcook]

Actually, it was not an especially high speed round, "only" 1600 fps.

That surprises me.

[KWK]

The .450-400:



was the same length but has a more bottlenecked shape, giving it extra capacity. Also, the Winchester's 219 gn bullet was a bit higher SD than some BPEs which combined to lower the speed. Plus, I think the British were willing to use faster granulations, probably 3Fg with this case and the 230 gn lead bullet. A real monster was the .500-450 BPE:



(sorry, that's the NE version; no BPE image readily available). This one flung a 325 gn .45 bullet to 1950 fps. Notice the case is about the same proportions as the .38-90. Since the bullet SD is about the same, Winchester should have been able to get speeds approaching that; again, I think the British were more willing to push the limits here.

[Mike D.]

In a properly constructed modern SS rifle, like the Browning 78 or Ruger #1, I would think that speed in excess of 2500 FPS could easily be reached with this cartridge and a stout load of RL7 or IMR 4198. I can see 60-65 grains pushing a 220 gr bullet at very high velocity without undue strain on the rifle, but severe strain on the shooter.

[Lee Mitchell]

We still talking about the 38-90-217 Winchester Express? LOL Thanks for all the info. Northern tool sells a cheap metal lathe for bout $200, hell if that's all it would take it might be worth it..., lmao

[KirkD]

That 38-90 cartridge looks a lot like the 38-72 case. I wonder if a fellow could make some 38-90 brass out of 38-72 brass. On the other hand, 38-72 brass isn't exactly easy to find either.

[Lee Mitchell]

Best I figure the 40-90 Sharps (Straight) is as close as I ever got. Case length, Base Diam., are the same Rim Diam. is the difference. 40-90 rim is 0.546, 38-90 rim is 0.558. is that enough to be deal killer? Also the 38-90 has a slight shoulder Dia. of 0.47, but that will fire form out first time. That is the closest brass I have found and its no savings. If the dam thing wasn't so dam long I could've re-chambered it to something closer. Oh well

[Cimarron Red]

According to John Donnelly's 'Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions' the .38-90 Win. Express can be made from .405 Winchester Basic (Bell) brass. F/L the .405 case and fireform. These cases aren't cheap, but they're about half of Buffalo Arms .38-90 brass. Here's a link:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,258.html

[KWK]

Ha!, shows what little I know. I didn't know Bertram offered .405 Basic brass. According to the drawings I have, the .38-90 has a little larger rim (.0017), a bit thinner rim (.005), and a little bigger head (.0016). The rim thickness on basic brass could well be just the right size, for the drawing from an old HDS .405 Basic sample shows it had just the correct rim thickness. At BP pressures a small error in head diameter shouldn't be a problem. Indeed, given the price of their reformed brass, I'd wager Buffalo starts with the Bertram basic brass. Once you have your die, running some Bertram through it would be worth a try.

[Ben_Rumson]

Lee.. Theres only .012" difference between the two..That breaks down to .006" on a side.. You could spin those up on a tapered piece of wood dowel & file off the excess in a jiffy.. Good luck!

[Lee Mitchell]

Thanks guys! This has been a lot of fun. I'll post what I do with pics. You all have given me more info and ideas in a couple days then I've come across in years. Thanks, great group here.

[Cimarron Red]

I often shot with an older guy at a buffalo shoot in northern Pennsylvania who had a nice Winchester Single-shot in .38-90. A beautiful old rifle. At one of the matches he had a case head separation, and what remained of the case was forced forward into the rifling. He was able to remove it back at home by, in effect, making a chamber cast with Cerro-Safe (bismuth), and driving the cast and case out with a stout rod.

Good luck in your quest, Lee!

[KWK]

Best I figure the 40-90 Sharps (Straight) is as close as I ever got.

I finally got around to looking at the .40-90 SS drawing. It, like the .38-90 drawing, reference some set of Winchester drawings from 1912. It suggests the .38-90 is nothing more than the .40-90 necked down. Midway and Grafs both have Bertram .40-90, formed and basic. HDS has what they label Bertram's "Original Sharps" for about 15% less per 20. Anneal the necks and run them through a die. (I'd still recommend a chamber cast.)

So, you didn't need us after all.

[Lee Mitchell]

Not sure what chamber casting will do. The rifle has been in the family since it was bought new. These ol highwalls back then came with factory hand loading tools, i.e. hand press with dies, 90 grain powder scoop, bullet mold, primer tool. My father who handed it to me before he passed, was the last to shoot it. I have one loaded bullet, one with a bullet set for sizing my die to and two empties. I'm looking for new brass because the three I have to reload are old an have been shot God knows how many times. My father was a teen when he shot it last. The gun is in great shape and I want to get into shooting it in competitively, for fun. The response and ideas I have gotten here are great I would'nt have thought to try resizing a different size brass on my own.

[KWK]

I suggested the cast because old chambers weren't always consistent with drawings; the .38-40 comes to mind. If the die routinely moves the shoulder, brass life will be poor.

Your dies, I take it, are for neck sizing, so all is well with fired brass. Any full length die marked for .38-90 should do for forming the brass from Bertram's basic stuff; after that just neck size.

Goex recommends 90 gn of their Fg for 1520 fps with a 217 gn lead bullet. They recommend 3Fg for the straight wall .450 Express despite higher SD bullets, and British .500-450's are loaded with 3Fg and 2Fg, so I think 2Fg or Cartridge might work nicely in the .38-90. I'd planned to try 3Fg in my BPE wildcat; that never left the drawing board, but I'll test it out some day with lead bullets in my 9.3x74R.

[Cimarron Red]

Lee,

If you haven't settled on something yet, here's another option that I had forgotten about. Rocky Mountain Cartridge has .38-90 cases at $75 for 20. These are newly-manufactured, turned from bar stock. I'm not sure, but they may be properly head-stamped as well. Here'a a link:

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/

[Lee Mitchell]

Cimarron Red...., I have not settled on anything yet, thanks for the link.

[Cimarron Red]

You're certainly welcome, Lee. Here's hoping you get that old high wall back in action. BTW, some pics would be great.