History of American military rifle cartridges.

[Old Savage]

I tried to look this up. I think the 45-70 is the first adopted but do not know the history from then on. Googled it with no satisfactory results.

[Don McDowell]

There was a 58 and a 50 caliber before the settled into the 45, then they went to the 30 US, then the 30-03 to the 30-06, then the 7.62, and then the 5.56

[Malamute]

They were using Spencers some also, in the war, and on the plains. The Beechers Island contestants were using Spencers, and they were in use in various other places also.

[Ray Newman]

There also were "paper" catridges before metallic catridges.

Several Civil War firearms, the most famous being the Sharps, loaded a paper cartridge with a percussion cap as a primer.

[adirondakjack]

The first service-wide metallic cartridge was the 50-70, in use for about 7 years, until it was bested by the .45-70 at the famous Sandy Hook tests, where they fired rifles at ranges up to two miles. Then the .45-70 was adopted and kept until the 30US (Krag) at the tail end of the 19th century.

[MrMurphy]

Yup.

Service-wide, it's .50-70, 45-70, .30-40 (though the Navy and Marines had the 6mm Lee for a while), .30-03, .30-06, 7.62 Nato and 5.56.

[Chas.]

And after carrying a few boxes of 50 45-70's from the parking lot to the range, I certainly understand the migration to 5.56.

[Old Time Hunter]

I think the 45-70 is the first adopted but do not know the history from then on.

My guess would be the .52 Cal Maynard, brass tube cartridge...first issued within a couple of months after the civil war started. Then a toss up between the Henry/Winchester .44Rim (Gen Ripley's forces had over a thousand of them and so did Berdan's before they got their Spencers) and the Spencer .56-56 cartridge (which was also used in the Ballard and Joslyn carbines).

Just my guess...until after the war when they made an attempt to standardize with .50-70

[harry]

Yup.

Service-wide, it's .50-70, 45-70, .30-40 (though the Navy and Marines had the 6mm Lee for a while), .30-03, .30-06, 7.62 Nato and 5.56.

Don't forget the very useful .30 carbine

[damienph]

"Cartridges of the World, 12th Edition" edited by Layne Simpson has a chapter (7) dedicated to military rifle cartridges.

It's a good reference, illustrated, and includes some loading data. for $30 or so, it is good reading.

[damienph]

Googled it with no satisfactory results.

Try googling "first adopted us military rifle cartridge"; brought up all kinds of stuff.

[Old Savage]

Did not know about the 50-70. Thanks for the references - I knew there would be info here in the collective mind and its parts.

[MrMurphy]

I didn't, but the .30-06 was the issue round. The .30 carbine was a secondary, much like the .45 ACP in subguns.

[olyinaz]

I didn't, but the .30-06 was the issue round. The .30 carbine was a secondary, much like the .45 ACP in subguns.

Nahh, it was widely used for many years - much more so than that 6mm Lee that you mentioned. At any rate, as others have mentioned there were many during the Civil War but I have no idea what the first issued metallic cartridge (by either a State Militia or the U.S. Govt.) would have been.

Towards the end of the timeline here we would have to add .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua, and .50 BMG for use in long range precision marksman weapons by all services. Probably others I've not thought of (for example, I'm not sure if any U.S. forces ever actually used the 6.8 SPC or the .458 SOCOM).

Cheers,
Oly

[Old Savage]

I guess we could do a couple of lists. One, the standard personal arms rifle carried by the individual soldier and the other anything issued or used. I was under the mistaken impression that the 45-70 was the first.

[Malamute]

Fred, this is an excellent book, as is the second volume that covers the dates from 1865 to 1894. Much good information, with lots of period accounts of use. Very good reading if you like guns and history of the west, which seem interconnected in many ways.

http://www.amazon.com/Firearms-American ... 0870814834

As far as personal weapons, the small 32 rimfire Smith & Wessons were popular during the civil war, as were the Henry rifles (many were bought by troops with their own money) and the Spencers. After the war, the huge numbers of muzzle loading 58 cal percussion Springfields on hand influenced the Army to use them in conversions, first to 58 rimfire, then to 50-70 centerfire. Several versions of the 50-70 were made, I believe the first in 1866, then '68,'70, and perhaps '72 (?) before the '73 version in 45-70 came out. The first 50-70's had a hinge for the breech block screwed onto the muzzle loader barrel, and it had a brazed in liner to reduce it to 50 cal. Next versions ('68) had a separate receiver and new barrel instead of the lined muzzle loader barrel, and breech being machined out of the muzzle loader barrel and breech block hinge screwed to the barrel.

The participants in the Wagon Box fight in Wy, after the Fetterman massacre, had 58 rimfire Springfields. Their rate of fire quite surprised the Indians, they were used to the muzzle loading arms. As mentioned earlier, the scout troop involved in the Beechers Island fight were issued Spencer carbines and 1860 Colt pistols. It was another case of the Indians being a bit surprised at the rate of fire from the scouts. There is also an interesting account of the use of Henry rifles by a couple of civilians (scouts?) along with the soldiers at the Wagon Box fight. It was related from a couple different angles. One of the soldiers later wrote that he felt that the two civvies had killed more Indians that day, then any man before or since. He said thay they fired a couple hundred rounds or so each, at ranges mostly between about 30 and 80 yards, that they were "good shots, and didnt miss much". The fighting went on for several hours, and the civvies were shooting fairly continuously. My recollection of the exact details is fuzzy, but is close to what I've related.

Smith&Wesson had a decent 44 cal cartridge gun in about '68 (69?). The Army used some, and they were somewhat popular with civilians as well. Many of us think of the 1873 Colt as the first cartridge gun, but it wasn't the case. Colt had to wait for Smith & Wessons patents to expire before they could produce cartridge guns. They made up for lost time fairly well.

[damienph]

I was under the mistaken impression that the 45-70 was the first.

Nope, just one of the best.

[olyinaz]

Good article:

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/a ... 0&magid=18

Cheers,
Oly

[MrMurphy]

What i meant was that while yes, the .30 carbine was used heavily, it was a personal defense weapon. It may have been used like a junior assault rifle, but the rifle, machine gun and light automatic weapon round was .30-06. Carbines were always secondary for when an M1 was too big.

There were quite a few rounds in use before the .50-70, but that was the first "service wide" adoption. The Civil War they were using whatever they could get their hands on.

[Old Time Hunter]

The participants in the Wagon Box fight in Wy, after the Fetterman massacre, had 58 rimfire Springfields. Their rate of fire quite surprised the Indians, they were used to the muzzle loading arms. As mentioned earlier, the scout troop involved in the Beechers Island fight were issued Spencer carbines and 1860 Colt pistols. It was another case of the Indians being a bit surprised at the rate of fire from the scouts. There is also an interesting account of the use of Henry rifles by a couple of civilians (scouts?) along with the soldiers at the Wagon Box fight. It was related from a couple different angles. One of the soldiers later wrote that he felt that the two civvies had killed more Indians that day, then any man before or since. He said thay they fired a couple hundred rounds or so each, at ranges mostly between about 30 and 80 yards, that they were "good shots, and didnt miss much". The fighting went on for several hours, and the civvies were shooting fairly continuously. My recollection of the exact details is fuzzy, but is close to what I've related.

This is a good account of the fight the day before the Wagon Box Fight:
http://reference.canadaspace.com/search ... d%20Fight/

[Old Savage]

Thanks - all very interesting reading.