Buffalo Bore 30-30

[slimster]

Well guys, it looks like Buffalo Bore has finally started producing that heavy 30-30 they've been hinting about for a while now. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... tail&p=222 They are reporting 2020fps out of a trapper with a 190 gr. JFP bullet! Cost almost 3 bucks a pop though.

[FWiedner]

I believe I'm gonna try this stuff.

[J Miller]

300¢ per shot ..... to costly for me. Plus I see no reason to use such over priced "premium" ammo in the 30-30. It's more than proven itself with the 150 and 170gr ammo.

JMHO

Joe

[slimster]

300¢ per shot ..... to costly for me. Plus I see no reason to use such over priced "premium" ammo in the 30-30. It's more than proven itself with the 150 and 170gr ammo.

JMHO

Joe

Yeah Joe, I kinda feel the same way as far as normal circumstances go. I do feel like it shows what some of the possibilities are for the grand old cartrige though, and I can definitely see it as a plus in some situations. If I were spending big bucks to travel on a hunting trip for elk or moose, or if were to live and hunt in areas where there were grizzly bears, and wanted to/had to use a .30-30,then I would feel like it was cheap insurance, but plinkin' ammo it aint!

[J Miller]

Slimster,

The 30-30 has been doing exactly what you described for over a 100 years with it's existing ammo. Taking elk, bears, self defense, etc.
I think it's just a gimmick to peal away more of your money.
I'll stick with the time proven ammo.

Joe

[FWiedner]

So what you're saying is that you're not the least bit curious and don't want to try it?

[BigSky56]

I wish I could find a couple of boxes of Win silver tips 190 they were made for the 303 savage the lyman #45 load manual has a 30-30 load for them 28.5 gr of Reloader 11 for 2102 fps and 39K cup. The 190 proved it self on moose elk and bears it penetrates. If you dont want to spend 3$ a round buy a box of hawk 190 FP and load them up might cost you 1$ per round If anybody wants it I will post the 30-30 190 gr load chart for different powders. danny
* means compressed powder charge

[J Miller]

So what you're saying is that you're not the least bit curious and don't want to try it?

Not at $3.00 a shot I'm not.
I might be interested in Danny's load though.

Joe

[Rifleman336]

Well it looks interesting, but I'd like to find a supply of the Buffalo Bore bullets and load my own at that price. But I won't believe the "Grizzly Wacking" claim until I see it. But I think it would be better round energy wise at longer ranges.

At least it's out, finally(!) for those that don't reload and want something different in ammo choices

Rifleman 336

[abcollector]

BigSky56,

Thanks for posting that data for the 190 JSP! Is that from the Lyman #45 load manual? I need to look for one if it is. And I'll make my way over to the Hawk bullet site too.

$3.00 per shot is high but like Slimster said, it ain't plinkin' ammo. Regardless of cost, it's good to see that there are (ammo) companies continuing to develop and bring to market things like this.

[J Miller]

Danny,

Thanks for posting that data. I saved it for future reference.

Joe

[BigSky56]

Yup Lyman #45 published 1970 the hawk bullet is a soft copper jacket it should move along easier than a standard jacketed bullet. danny

hawk 190s .030 jacket 37.50$ for 50 same bullet BB uses
http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm

[abcollector]

Perfect... thanks Danny.

[olyinaz]

It's nice to have options but the price is pretty ridiculous. I'd like to see Hornady do something in a 190.

Oly

[Rusty]

IIRC there was some traffic on here a while back where someone was writing about a practice that took place in the early 1900's. People were taking .30-40 ammo loaded with a 190 grain bullet and pulling the bullet to use in a .30-30. The results were an amazingly accurate load for the .30-30.

[Griff]

So what you're saying is that you're not the least bit curious and don't want to try it?

Speaking strictly for myself; Yep.

Edited to add

[Poohgyrr]

Yeah that's not cheap. But I'm happy to see someone making another load, and looks like a good one, for the 30WCF. My supply of JSP's and a few good molds are still sweet, but I gotta love this recognition they are giving the 30-30 Lever.

And thank you for the loading data too, that is really appreciated.

It is always fun to take the Levers out, field or range either way it brings smiles to my getting old face.

[tman]

i don't think a brown bear will know the differerence between a 170 coreloc and the new stuff. It might give the hunter more confidence though.

[J Miller]

tman,

No sarcasm here, but I've always found that confidence comes from practice with your rifle(s) and the proficiency that comes from it.

I think the hunters in the old days simply had the confidence proficiency brings on their side. Not fancy or premium bullets.

I think I'd like to try some 180 to 190 jacketed bullets in my 30-30s, but I sure don't want to pay those prices for them. At those extreme prices you'd have to be rich or funded by a rich man to afford enough ammo to become proficient with it.

Joe

[KWK]

Did Lyman 45 say what length barrel they used? B.B. says 2172 from a 24" Marlin--wow! Rx-11 hasn't been made for over 30 years, and at 2100 it was already over SAAMI. I'd be wary of chasing almost 2200 fps without more modern load data.

[Griff]

Did Lyman 45 say what length barrel they used? B.B. says 2172 from a 24" Marlin--wow! Rx-11 hasn't been made for over 30 years, and at 2100 it was already over SAAMI. I'd be wary of chasing almost 2200 fps without more modern load data.

Lyman's 45th sez their results were from a "Universal Receiver", 26" barrel, 1-12" twist @ .308 diameter.

[tman]

tman,

No sarcasm here, but I've always found that confidence comes from practice with your rifle(s) and the proficiency that comes from it.

I think the hunters in the old days simply had the confidence proficiency brings on their side. Not fancy or premium bullets.

I think I'd like to try some 180 to 190 jacketed bullets in my 30-30s, but I sure don't want to pay those prices for them. At those extreme prices you'd have to be rich or funded by a rich man to afford enough ammo to become proficient with it.

Joe

I agree with you Joe. My comment was aimed at the premium bullet, ultra magnum, tactical accessary crowd. But i do like options and am happy anytime a manufacturer comes out with a new load for a lever. If all i had for brown bear was a 30-30, i might go for it at $3 bucks a pop, myself.

[RKrodle]

IIRC there was some traffic on here a while back where someone was writing about a practice that took place in the early 1900's. People were taking .30-40 ammo loaded with a 190 grain bullet and pulling the bullet to use in a .30-30. The results were an amazingly accurate load for the .30-30.

Here you go Rusty, I copied this from Load Data.


.30-30 Ackley Improved Data Reloading Data
Printable Version
Load Image
Warning! Notes: These loads were developed in a Storey converted Winchester Model 94 with a 24-inch barrel. (Rifle Issue #103 - January, 1986)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
190 Winchester IMR IMR-3031 32.0 2,092
Remarks: pulled from 303 Savage loaded rounds

[FWiedner]

Question on the data Ricky provided...

So, after the few conversations that have occurred lately concerning using 190gr bullets in the .30-30, were we actually discussing an AI load rather than a .30-30, or have I misunderstood that someone has used 190gr bullet for the .30-30?

[RKrodle]

Question on the data Ricky provided...

So, after the few conversations that have occurred lately concerning using 190gr bullets in the .30-30, were we actually discussing an AI load rather than a .30-30, or have I misunderstood that someone has used 190gr bullet for the .30-30?

Fred, I think everybody was talking about 30-30. This was the only published data I could find with reference to the pulled 303 Savage bullets and it is for the AI. I hope I didn't cause any confusion. The only other data listed for 190gr bullet was some reduced loads with cast bullets.

[stretch]

The 30-30 with modern 170gr. bullets is already running a heavier bullet
at higher velocity than it was designed for. The 190 gr. round is an interesting
discussion. It's WAY too expensive for me at $3 a pop. A 308 or 30-06 is what's
needed for 30 cal. bullets of those weights. This gives the combination of velocity,
ballistic coefficient, and weight to make the .308 round viable at longer ranges.

At shorter ranges just use the 35 Remington if you need more oomph. Bigger
hole and more weight. Or go all-out with the 45-70. If you need a stouter load
than that at short-range, you're maybe needing a T-34 or something like that!

The 30-30 is a terrific cartridge within it's limits. Yes, we've been pushing those
limits and stretching them successfully for over a hundred years, but we're gettin'
close to the end of the line. The 30-30 can do almost anything in North America
that needs doing with a rifle with the exceptions of really long-range stuff
(sheep hunting, for instance), or hunting Kodiaks up close and personal. Yes,
the cartridge has done both successfully, but even with a 190 gr. bullet,
it ain't the ideal tool for either job.

-Stretch

[86er]

Personally, I have issue with the 190 gr loads. In extensive testing, both by me and an ammo manufacturer, there was little advantages. The 30-30 is operating right within that window of give and take that makes BIG differences. The 190 grain is somewhat slower than the 170 gr with factory load and quite a bit slower than a souped up 170 gr handload. The gain in weight (20 grains) causes a reduction in velocity. In our testing, the 190 doesn't penetrate more, actually it is about the same or maybe insignificantly more (1.5" in some cases, less in others) than a good 170 gr at factory velocity or more. In some cartriges, an increase in weight will yield more penetration in spite of lower velocity. It doesn't appear so in the 30-30. The reduction in expansion with this Hawk 190 is an attempt to get more penetration. The 170 gr Hawk which is a little softer penetrates within 2-3" of the 190 when the Grizzly Cartridge 170gr Hawk is compared directly to the Buffalo Bore 190gr Hawk. Yet the tissue destruction is substantially greater with the 170 gr Hawk because it expands to a greater diameter, quicker. I'm glad Buffalo Bore give the option of this load for all to try. I think there are 3 groups of consumers for this: 1) Think it may be the ticket and buy a box. Decide there is too much recoil or not enough accuracy to justify buying more and stick to their previous loading, 2) Can't wait to try it. Shoot it and like it for accuracy and honestly believe it is better than any other 30-30 out there. When it comes down to it, they are not going after bears or moose and buying another box falls by the wayside and they go back to shooting cheaper stuff, 3) Have to have it - it must be the best stuff going. Fires it and sights in (might even have to get a different height front sight to make it happen). Actually goes hunting for a bear or mule deer or moose. Probably get one - so the 190 gr kills it. Think it is the best loading ever and quickly recommend it to everyone as the best. Reality - could have killed the animal with a 170 grain load too, but shooter has tunnel vision and can't get past their 190's being the golden egg. As far as bear protection - ask yourself this: Would you take a 308 Win (lever gun) with 180 gr premium bullets as bear protection? How about a 308 Win with 200 gr premium bullets? How about a 303 Savage with the 190gr bullet at close to the same velocity. Not exactly the first thing that comes to mind for bear protection. So why the heck would a 190 gr 30-30 suddenly be bear protection? Now if the 30-30 was all you had, it couldn't hurt to use 190's but there are 170 gr options out there that would do as well, maybe better. Possibly the 150 gr Barnes X would be as good or better too, don't know but it does expand and penetrate quite a bit. The only way I can see the 190 gr being superior on larger animals would be if the velocity was the full 2200 fps you can get from a 170 gr and it expanded to at least close to the same diameter as a good controlled expansion 170 gr. I hope someone does some good testing and lets us know!

[stretch]

The only way I can see the 190 gr being superior on larger animals would be if the velocity was the full 2200 fps you can get from a 170 gr and it expanded to at least close to the same diameter as a good controlled expansion 170 gr. I hope someone does some good testing and lets us know!

Just what I was TRYING to say! (Your explanation is clearer!)
I think that a significant increase in velocity is going to be outside
the 30-30's parameters - unless someone can either
refute the laws of physics, or comes up with an unusual powder with an
even more unusual pressure curve.

-Stretch

[slimster]

86er, stretch, my understanding from thier press release was that they were getting thier 190 grain up to comparable velocities of other factory 170 gr. loadings.

Heavy 30-30 Winchester Ammo - 190 gr. JFN @ 2100 fps (1860 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box
Buffalo Bore is introducing a truly Heavy 30-30 Winchester loading. This new load utilizes a 190gr. custom Hawk bullet and gives the venerable 30-30 here-to-for unrealized power and is designed so that the person who owns a 30-30 can now reliably kill elk or moose sized game. The 30-30 can now be carried as a defensive tool in grizzly country and will be much more effective in stopping a grizzly attack than any other 30-30 ammunition in the world. This heavy 30-30 load is not designed for deer, although it will kill deer and if you line them up right, it will kill three or four deer with one shot……….

The custom 190gr. hawk bullet is designed with a harder core and thicker than normal jacket, so the expansion is minimal, thus insuring very deep penetration which is needed to break large bones and destroy organs deep inside large game animals. This load generates an unreal 2100 fps from normal 20 inch carbines—this is the type of velocity that the ordinary 170gr. 30-30 loads generate, but again, we are using a 190gr. bullet. The product SKU# for this load is 28A/20
Check the below real world velocities from my personal stock, over-the-counter firearms—truly amazing.
2071 fps -- Marlin Model 336 20 inch saddle ring carbine circa 1950’s
2061 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1980’s
2075 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1953
2116 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1963
2172 fps -- Marlin model 336A 24 inch carbine circa 1940’s
2146 fps -- Win. Model 94 20 inch carbine circa 1980’s
2020 fps -- Win. Model 94AE 16 inch Trapper carbine circa 1992
1983 fps -- Savage 99 26 inch rifle circa 1917 - Not a Typo
Note that the longest barrel gave the slowest velocity and even the short 16 inch Winchester trapper model gives faster speeds than the 26 inch Savage 99 rifle, which shows that barrel length is not always the sole indicator of velocities a firearm will generate.
Buffalo Bore always uses stock over-the-counter- firearms that give real world velocities. Other ammunition companies normally use laboratory test barrels which give much higher velocities than stock firearms. We at Buffalo Bore see this long established practice as misleading to the consumer.

This 30-30 loading (Item 28A/20) is safe to use in ANY/ALL 30-30 chambered firearms that are in normal operating condition—no exceptions, no need to “double check” with us. From my own limited experiences, factory 170's from Win., Rem., and Federal averaged from about 1950 fps on the low end to slightly over 2000 fps on the high end from my 1983 production Win. Trapper. If B.B. is honest in thier advertising, they are matching my high end velocities with 20 more grains of bullet. That seemed like an admirable upgrade to me. (Not that I would willingly chase after a large Brown or Polar bear with that.) I don't think most people are getting very close to 2200 from 170's in a 20" or shorter barrel.

[86er]

I get 2087 with my 170 gr bullet and it is not a max load. Here are Grizzly's stats from a 20" Marlin and a 20" Winchester-
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse- ... Detail.bok

Conelly Precision is advertising 2190 with a 170 grain:
http://cpcartridge.com/30-30P.htm

Custom Cartridge has the 150 gr Barnes TSX at 2320 fps:
http://www.customcartridge.com/order/li ... ion=Search

I don't think the addition of weight with the same or a reduced velocity with 190 compared to 170 is enough to make the difference substantial. If the increase in penetration is a few inches but the wound channel is decreased by the same ratio the animal would be dead either way but it wouldn't make a 190 gr obviously or noticably better. And it doesn't make the 190 gr a bear protection round. If the penetration was 6" or more the gap would close, the same if the 190 expanded as much as a good 170 but penetrated just 2 or 3" more. I have no idea of the actual performance or potential of the 190 as loaded by Buffalo Bore. I am a skeptic on this matter. A lot of that comes from personal tinkering with heavy 30-30 loads and one ammo manufacturer that discussed with a group of us his companies trials with 180, 190 and even 195 grain bullet with no measurable gain to warrant manufacturing with honest statments and provable performance. Again - I hope somebody tests it and it is everything it is touted to be. If it is indeed better, I'd have no problem recommending it to my bear and moose hunters and those shooting large exotics with 30-30.

[BigSky56]

Anytime you use heavy and long for caliber bullets you will have better penatration example 220grn in 30/06, 175 grn in 7mm etc. The hawk 190 will have to hold together to be a winner I'd still like to find some old 190 win silvertips though till then Iam going to try hornady 180RN and see how they work this season. danny

[t.r.]

I did the math. The 190 grain bullet weighs 11.7% more than the 170 grain bullet. If this is significant, then this is the bullet for you.

Canadian trappers and hunters have slain countless moose, caribou, and bears with ordinary 170 grain ammo. There is no question that a skilled and patient hunter can knock over just about any animal that walks with well placed 170 grain soft nose bullets.

TR

[tman]

Used to be an old saying among the gun writing crowd that people who hunted with a 30-30 didn't read gun magazines. The 170 coreloc's have been killing everything in this hemi-sphere for at least 85 years. The new BB 190 makes it a better deal on the big stuff, if you feel you need it.

[Markbo]

Well I believe I might have to try soe 190gr bullets in my new .30-30 AI chamber.

[Jeff Quinn]

I like the concept. I have harder-hitting 30 caliber rifles, like the 308 and 30-06, but none are quite as handy as a Winchester Model 94 carbine. Buffalo Bore makes good products, and they thoroughly test their stuff before bringing to market. The sectional density is greater than a 150 or 170, and the 190 Hawk is built for tougher game. Most 30-30 ammo is is loaded with bullets for optimum performance on whitetail deer. On whitetail, I prefer the Barnes 150 grain 30-30 copper bullet to all others, and would like to see that bullet shortened to 130 grains. However, BB states that this bullet is made for deep penetration. I think that on whitetail, it would most likely not expand on a rib-cage shot. However, I do tend to believe that for use in large bear country, it makes the old 30 WCF a better choice than if the load were not available. I don't know, don't have proof, and will likely never use a 30-30 on a brown bear, but for the man who relies on the 30-30 for everything, I think that the Buffalo Bore 190 makes his rifle more versatile. The price is of little concern to the man who keeps his rifle loaded and ready for an emergency, and even for the hunter, the price means nothing compared to the other costs of a hunt. I am glad to see manufacturers paying attention to those of us who do not carry the latest short fat magnum afield, and intend to try out the new load soon. I have three boxes of it down on the ammo shelf.

[medicdave]

The best 30/30 loads I ever came up with were some 180gr RN bullets out of canada I got for $26/500. The load was 30gr of R15 with the crimp over the bullets ogive to maintain OAL. I never chronoed it, but it knocked the living daylights out of hogs. Bang flop deals. I like the heavy bullets in the 30/30. Not gonna pay $3 a round though lol.

[slimster]

I get 2087 with my 170 gr bullet and it is not a max load. Here are Grizzly's stats from a 20" Marlin and a 20" Winchester-
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse- ... Detail.bok

Conelly Precision is advertising 2190 with a 170 grain:
http://cpcartridge.com/30-30P.htm

Custom Cartridge has the 150 gr Barnes TSX at 2320 fps:
http://www.customcartridge.com/order/li ... ion=Search

I don't think the addition of weight with the same or a reduced velocity with 190 compared to 170 is enough to make the difference substantial. If the increase in penetration is a few inches but the wound channel is decreased by the same ratio the animal would be dead either way but it wouldn't make a 190 gr obviously or noticably better. And it doesn't make the 190 gr a bear protection round. If the penetration was 6" or more the gap would close, the same if the 190 expanded as much as a good 170 but penetrated just 2 or 3" more. I have no idea of the actual performance or potential of the 190 as loaded by Buffalo Bore. I am a skeptic on this matter. A lot of that comes from personal tinkering with heavy 30-30 loads and one ammo manufacturer that discussed with a group of us his companies trials with 180, 190 and even 195 grain bullet with no measurable gain to warrant manufacturing with honest statments and provable performance. Again - I hope somebody tests it and it is everything it is touted to be. If it is indeed better, I'd have no problem recommending it to my bear and moose hunters and those shooting large exotics with 30-30.

Thanks for that info Joe. I didn't see anyplace on Grizzly's website where they stated their test barrel specs. That Griz. 170 sounds very interesting now. I had assumed they were using std. practice and using a 24" pressure barrel. Still don't know about the Conelly Precision or Custom Cart. as they don't specify their test barrel lengths either, at least on the supplied links.

I like the concept. I have harder-hitting 30 caliber rifles, like the 308 and 30-06, but none are quite as handy as a Winchester Model 94 carbine. Buffalo Bore makes good products, and they thoroughly test their stuff before bringing to market. The sectional density is greater than a 150 or 170, and the 190 Hawk is built for tougher game. Most 30-30 ammo is is loaded with bullets for optimum performance on whitetail deer. On whitetail, I prefer the Barnes 150 grain 30-30 copper bullet to all others, and would like to see that bullet shortened to 130 grains. However, BB states that this bullet is made for deep penetration. I think that on whitetail, it would most likely not expand on a rib-cage shot. However, I do tend to believe that for use in large bear country, it makes the old 30 WCF a better choice than if the load were not available. I don't know, don't have proof, and will likely never use a 30-30 on a brown bear, but for the man who relies on the 30-30 for everything, I think that the Buffalo Bore 190 makes his rifle more versatile. The price is of little concern to the man who keeps his rifle loaded and ready for an emergency, and even for the hunter, the price means nothing compared to the other costs of a hunt. I am glad to see manufacturers paying attention to those of us who do not carry the latest short fat magnum afield, and intend to try out the new load soon. I have three boxes of it down on the ammo shelf.

Thanks for weighing in Jeff, I hope you will be posting your results and opinions r.e. the BB190's on your web site. I think it would be interesting to try out the BB 190's alongside the Grizzly 170 Hawk loading. Maybe Joe could get Mike Rintoul to provide a few rounds for comparison. Just a thought.

[FWiedner]

I'd like to see how they perform in one of my .30-30's. I'd like to see how they group at hunting ranges, get a feel for what recoil there might be, and see what kind of dent they'll put in a fat hog.

I've tried some BB products before. Good products and I like them. Satisfying my curiosity might cost me "$3 a round", but I've wasted more money on less worth-while projects.

I don't see a few pennies as reason to stick my nose in the air, turn my back, spit sour grapes, or to question the skill, intelligence, or motivation of someone else who wants to base their opinion of the stuff on actually having tried it once or twice. IMO numbers from a book don't always tell the story.

[86er]

I got some Grizzly Cartridge Ammo with the 170 gr Hawk at 2300 fps (20" bbl) on the way. I'm going to look for the Buffalo Bore 190's at Cabelas and see if it is a hair cheaper than the website prices. I only have one 30-30, a 1948 Model 94. I'll chrono them and shoot a bunch of stuff, dead and alive, plus some ballistic media to make a side by side comparion. I'll report back when I'm done and report the facts regarding penetration, expansion, wound channel and actual MV. Then you guys can draw your own conclusions and make a decision. We can all speculate but doing a side by side is the only way to really sort it out. If there is another load that someone wants included in the side by side tests, please send a handful to me and I'll do it. I figure this will be complete within two weeks (depends on how fast I get the BB ammo). Thanks

[Griff]

<snip> I am glad to see manufacturers paying attention to those of us who do not carry the latest short fat magnum afield, and intend to try out the new load soon. I have three boxes of it down on the ammo shelf.

I'm in full agreement with ya, Jeff. Let us know when you do a test of it... maybe I'll change my mind.

I'm a deer hunter, 1st and foremost; however, the ocassional coyote and havelina have been known to fall when they get stupid and present a shot. For them, my 150s and 125HPs have been great, but... IF, like Jeff sez, I was to be in brown bear country, the 190 grain might get more interest from me.

[tman]

I got some Grizzly Cartridge Ammo with the 170 gr Hawk at 2300 fps (20" bbl) on the way. I'm going to look for the Buffalo Bore 190's at Cabelas and see if it is a hair cheaper than the website prices. I only have one 30-30, a 1948 Model 94. I'll chrono them and shoot a bunch of stuff, dead and alive, plus some ballistic media to make a side by side comparion. I'll report back when I'm done and report the facts regarding penetration, expansion, wound channel and actual MV. Then you guys can draw your own conclusions and make a decision. We can all speculate but doing a side by side is the only way to really sort it out. If there is another load that someone wants included in the side by side tests, please send a handful to me and I'll do it. I figure this will be complete within two weeks (depends on how fast I get the BB ammo). Thanks

Thank you, This is going to be interesting

[hfcable]

there are a couple of heavier premium bullets made to use in the medium/lower velocity rounds like the old 303 savage and the 30/30 , that are currently available. i have loaded each of them in the 303 and the lapua in the 30/30 and they shoot well. they are designed to hold together but expand at more modest velocities, rather like the old 190s did:

lapua 185 gr at 41.00 / 100

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=467367

norma oryx 180 gr at 53.00 / 100

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=987544

one of these [ i forget which ] was once called the 'alaskan'
they may well be useful here where game is a bit bigger and worth the extra cost.

i have thought they would also be a good choice in the 307 winchester as well and i am going to try them in that one too.

[Markbo]

I like MedicDave's $26/500 better. Might have to find my own mold!

[BigSky56]

hfcable, norma makes a alaskan bullet for slower velocities and it is kinda RN/FN. danny
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... ctId/11509

[medicdave]

I like MedicDave's $26/500 better. Might have to find my own mold!

Those were jacketed round nose softs. They were a really neat bullet as they were "bonded" by having the jacket pierced into the core much like a can opener would a juice can. Never shed a jacket past the piercings and couldn't beat the price. The shop I got them from does a lot of importing of foreign arms and ammo and they were thrown in with one of his deals. I bought a few thousand and shot them in the 30/30 and 30/06 with great results. Guess I'll never see them again but still have a couple hundred tucked away. Like nothing you've ever seen for laying the smack down on hogs, most opened wide and blew right on through. The only hog shot that was more decisive than those was a 300gr interlock soft from my 375H&H during load testing. That one didn't even squeal.

[hfcable]

hfcable, norma makes a alaskan bullet for slower velocities and it is kinda RN/FN. danny
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pro ... ctId/11509

that is the one, it shoots really well for me. i have a couple of boxes of them and a fair amount already loaded for the 303 savage, thanks!!!