.410 Shell

[HEAD0001]

I am sure this has been covered before, but here goes. Can you shoot a 2-1/2" 410 shotgun shell in a 45-70 rifle?? I would guess that you would have to load it single shot only in a lever action. And my main use would be in an 1885, but I was just wondering if there is something to this?? I have heard it thrown around before. But I would like to get the low down on this. Thanks, Tom.

[O.S.O.K.]

I don't know for sure. But I'm thinking no.

The reason? The throat is not open enough to allow for the end of the shell (the crimp area) to unfold and give room for the shot cup to pass unimpeded.

I'm thinking that it would be like shooting a 3" shell in a 2 1/2" chamber - same problem.

[Gun Smith]

It would chamber. But what's the point, the shot/cup will be spun by the rifling and the pattern would be useless? Same thing happens with shot in any rifled barrel. Bad guy might be scared by the noise, but unless he was very close the damage would be minor, and it might really p--- him off to boot.
When I was 'smithing years ago in gunsmithing school we bought old big frame Colt (1917 ?) 45 Colt revolvers. We smooth bored them with tapered reamers. They worked like jack the bear. Of course they were illegal then too.

[Grizz]

I haven't done it in a 45/70, but I shot a box or two from a .444. At 12 feet the shot has arranged itself in two nearly perfect concentric circles.

It would be much more interesting if there was a hard cast bullet in the wad.

It was fun. The rounds fed from the magazine just fine, closing the action was a little 'hard', extraction was easy.

Grizz

[Doc Hudson]

You might get away with a 2" .410 Shell, but not the . 1*2" shell.

The .45-70 has a 2.1" case, and unless the throat is exceptionally generous you'd not be able to chamber a 2 1/2shell.

As others have said, the shot pattern would really suck due to the rifling.

[AJMD429]

I've read MANY posts over the past decade by guys who say they've fired .410 shells in .444 Marlins without any problem. Dunno the length of the shells, but I'd presume the shorter ones.

It wouldn't be hard to measure the shells and see what they'd fit in.

In case anyone wondered, you can ALSO fire a .444 Marlin in a .45-70. . .

[piller]

AJMD429, it looks as if you are giving us an example of the old adage that just because something is possible, it might not be a good idea to do it.

[Rusty]

I seem to remember back when the .45-70 trapdoor was the issue weapon wasn't there some kind of a forager load that was issued. I think it was some kind of a shot load?

It may have been a special Trapdoor in .410... my memory is kind of fuzzy on it.

[Hobie]

I seem to remember back when the .45-70 trapdoor was the issue weapon wasn't there some kind of a forager load that was issued. I think it was some kind of a shot load?

It may have been a special Trapdoor in .410... my memory is kind of fuzzy on it.

They made a forager 20 ga. on the Trapdoor. No doubt there were .45 brass shot loads. However, the longer the barrel the more the rifling gets to work its "magic" on the shot charge.

[Cliff]

I believe "Rusty" has the answer. Ken Waters in his writings did a four part write up on the .45-70. He showed all the various loads used in the .45-70 Govt. loads. The forager load used a wooden sabot type bullet, which looked somewhat like the 500 grain lead bullet load, but was filled with shot. Upon firing the wooden shell was broken by the firing and rifleing. Don't know how well it worked. I have made similar shot shells for my H&R single shot, but used a paper sabot. I would form the bullet or sabot body by forming wet paper over the end of a dowel rod to mimic the wooden bullet, then when it dried would fill it with shot. Put a cushion wad over the powder. It would open and leave holes in the pattern. Tried waterproofing them with shellac but didn't make any difference. If you can find his (Waters) book "Favorite Handloads it does make an interesting read. ATB

[hfcable]

i have done it in a trapdoor repro SRC and it worked but the grouse did not realize it, so it flew away.
i should pattern this. i once patterned a whole bunch of .22 rifles and pistols with the little rat shot shells. there were some real surprises: i would have thought that short barrels and shallow rifling would work best but i had a 26" barreled savage NRA match rifle with very deep rifling and it shot nearly perfect even patterns, much better than anything else.
try it, and try patterning it. you may be surprised, logic doesnt always hold on such things.

[AJMD429]

.410 Chamber specs I came across (see the LINK for the pictures) - http://www.fourten.org.uk/chamberdimensions410.pdf

European guns can be a bit on the tight side, both in the bore and chamber. Taken from the SAAMI
specifications, the actual .410 chamber dimensions are similar. The 3inch chamber tapers down from .481inch
just behind the rim flange, to .463inch at the start of the chamber cone.
By comparison the 2 1/2inch chamber runs from .478inch behind the rim flange to .463inch at the start of the
chamber cone. So the 2 1/2 inch chamber can run a little tighter at the breech end. .410 bore diameters can and
do vary widely, but the SAAMI specifications allow from a minimum of .410 inch (10.41mm), up to plus
20thou of an inch (.430 inch/10.92mm).
If we look at the diagrams of each chamber length, there is an extended taper form with the three-inch
chamber when compared to that of the 2½ inch version. The 2½ inch chamber taper runs from .478inches to
.463inches in a fraction under 2½ inches. This reduced in diameter by 15 thousandths of an inch for the
chamber run length. Conversely, the three-inch chamber drops from .481inch to .463inch, which is an
18thousanths of an inch reduction in chamber diameter along its length, or 3 thou wider at the chamber mouth.
The 2 ½ inch chamber drops 6 thou in diameter per inch of chamber length, and so because it drops 18thou in
three inches of length, we can see that the three-inch chamber also has the same tapertaper, but because it is a half
inch longer, it is therefore necessarily an extra 3 thou wider at the chamber mouth.

It looks like the shotgun chambers are pretty large diameter out past where the .444 Marlin chamber would end, but in a .45-70 at least the barrel would be larger diameter. Interesting stuff.

[Chas.]

Yes you can. But the shotshells will be unusable(may not matter) as they swell and split, expecially the brass. You may have to dig them out with a screwdriver. You might also get a face full of burning powder, shotshell fragments, etc. A better solution would be to load a .45-70 with shot. See this http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 219.0.html

[AJMD429]

Here's an interesting thread on firint .410 shells in .444 Marlins:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15448

Sounds like it works IF you use 2.5" shells, IF your gun is Micro-groove, and IF you use Remington brand shells. Interesting thread, though...

[AJMD429]

Here's an interesting thread on firint .410 shells in .444 Marlins:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=15448

Sounds like it works IF you use 2.5" shells, IF your gun is Micro-groove, and IF you use Remington brand shells. Interesting thread, though...

[765x53]

Single shot and bolt action .410's are plentiful and cheep.

45/70's and .444's could easily be loaded with felt wads and shot.

Either way would be safer and more effective.

[KCSO]

Yes and No

The shell over expands but rarely leaks gas. When it does leak you get it in your face. The pattern is lousy and is good for maybe 10 yards at best. In case you are wondering my gramps used 410's in a trapdoor for shooting rats in ther barn. I've done it but never liked it.