Any Garand shooters?

[Hobie]

Anyone here own/shoot a Garand, aka Rifle M1 cal .30?

[Don McDowell]

You mean one of these?

[KSRtrd]

I like mine, they are my favorite range weapon.

[awp101]

I do. I don't do it very well, but I do...

[HEAD0001]

Hobie I have a funny story about the Garand. The company I worked for imported a bunch of them, and we had a bunch of Lake City Surplus. So I got a really good deal. Me and a friend bought 5 rifles and 35,000 rounds. We started a small club and shot the rifles for close to six months. We got to where we thought we were pretty good. So we decided we were going to go to a shoot at Camp Perry and give the old timers a shooting lesson. So we went( I think the year was 1990). When we got there we went over to the firing line and there was a couple of older "grunts" just shooting the breeze, and shooting for fun. They said they were there for the next days competition. My friend and I watched these fellow shoot a little bit(off handed), and these guys were incredible. I thought I could shoot a rifle until I watched these older Marines shooting their rifles. I was so embarrassed that I would not even pull our rifles out of the trunk. The one Marine asked me where our rifles were. I lied to him and told him that we were afraid to bring them over the state line, and so we were there to observe only. Those guys could have ate my lunch when it came to shooting. We had a really great time. The older fellows took their time, let us shoot their rifles, and taught me the most about shooting that I have ever learned.

I did learn one thing on that trip to Camp Perry. It would be very unwise to mess with an old Marine. God bless them. Tom.

[Hobie]

I just got one from the CMP. An RM1 Special. In effect it is a new gun on a July 1943 Springfield Armory receiver. I don't have pics but the gun is new in appearance. I'm needing the stuff that goes with. Have some clips, want more. My 1905 bayonet won't work (the wood is too proud but I'm not altering it for this purpose) and I'm now looking for an M1 or 1905E1 bayonet. Came with a cotton canvas sling. I've got a bunch of .30-06 brass but need the 150 gr. FMJ bullets and a good idea as to how much IMR 4895 I need to use to duplicate issue ammo ballistics.

[otteray]

You bet I do, Hobie!
From CMP and lots of Greek HXP Ammo, too.
Our local range has Garand matches now and then.
Loads of fun.
When I went to get one at the big Reno show a few years back when CMP last made it out this far west for a show with a boatload of Garands and 1903s; I could not believe it.
It was elbow to elbow, 6 men deep in line for every sales rep at the several tables, with a long waiting line for processing.

[Ysabel Kid]

Y2K and I both own one, but I am embarassed to say, it has been several years for me since I have enjoyed the pleasure of shooting it. Perhaps this year; Y2K is getting big enough to handle this masterpiece!

[Don McDowell]

The last bullets I got were the prvi from Grafs. If you can find it at a decent price the greek ammo is pretty good stuff.
The M2 ball load called for 50 grs of 4895.
I have the proper bayonet, it was given to me by a veteran of Korea, it's not for sale or trade.

[JerryB]

Hobie you now have a real rifle. I love my old levers, but I sure do have a special love for my old 1944 M1. If I can find it I have an old article on loading for the M1, I'll send you a copy.I know that you will enjoy it. Maybe you can find a copy of the 23-5 manual.
My bayonet is a Korean war issue.

[John in MS]

Hobie, if you have not loaded for the M1, there are a couple of things needed to ensure safety and avoid damage. M1/M1A's are particular as to powder burn rate, as gas pressure too high at the gas PORT can damage the operating rod. American Rifleman did an article with proper M1 loads with a variety of powders and all appropriate bullet weights, in March, 1986. They may be able to give you a reprint.

Unfortunately, I don't have the whole article, but did save some of the data. IMR 4895 is the classic M1 powder and often gives very fine accuracy (with good bullets, barrels, fit and bedding) with little load development. For 150 gr. Sierra MatchKing bullets, the American Rifleman listed IMR 4895 starting loads for a .30-06 M1 at 48.5 (forty-eight point five) gr, using either Federal or Lake City brass, Federal 210M (match) primers, and cartridge OAL of 3.340". The velocity in their M1 was 2655-2711 fps, depending on the brass. FWIW, I chronographed actual USGI .30-06 ball ammo (150 gr.) and it was not loaded to the high velocities seen with modern commercial ammo, so this load should be just fine to duplicate GI ammo. If you decide to shoot for accuracy, and your barrel/gas cylinder fit and stock bedding permit, you should see a very significant improvement in accuracy by switching from GI FMJ's to any good quality hunting bullet or Sierra/Hornady match bullets. I have seen excellent accuracy achieved with the 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullet in 2 issue-grade M1's that had as-new barrels, little wear and excellent action/stock fit.

Also, the M1/M14 have a design feature by which the firing pin is held back away from the primer until the bolt is locked, to prevent slam-fires, which, if they occur out of battery, can result in a ruined rifle (and possibly ruined shooter.) In some cases, the part of the receiver that engages the firing pin can be worn or out of spec, or the firing pin itself may be worn/out of spec, and it is possible for the firing pin to contact the primer before the bolt locks, when chambering. In my experience with a number of DCM (now CMP) Garands over the years, plus NM M1/M1A's, it's common to get a very tiny "tick" mark on the center of the primer when chambering a round forcefully (normal cycling.) However, it is important to seat all primers below flush with the case head (per standard specs), as high primers appear to be a significant cause of slam-fires. These occurred on a rare but regular basis when M1/M1A's ruled NRA Highpower, and were most frequently seen with handloads, in my experience. I shot these rifles during those years and made a pretty detailed study of the factors involved in slam-fires.

At that time, Federal Match primers were very popular in the M1/M1A due to their accuracy, and were accordingly involved in any number of slam-fire incidents. Many attributed this to
"Market Share," -- i.e., they were used more, so were more involved in slam-fires. However,
it was/is widely believed that they are more sensitive than other primers and that this can contribute to the problem, especially if other factors are present. At the time, Federal issued a statement that their primers weren't any more sensitive than any others, met standard SAAMI specs, etc. I read detailed test results that suggested otherwise. As a result, it's my considered OPINION that Federal primers are best reserved for 600 yard (or other slow-fire events) in which they are single-loaded, rather than rapid-fire.

The safest technique I've found for single-loading is to put the cartridge into the magazine using a single-loading adapter, and then release the bolt, stripping the cartridge out of the mag, slowing the bolt (and thus firing pin) velocity, and reducing risk of slam-fire. Failing having a single-loading adapter, you can seat the round in the chamber, and push the mag follower with your right thumb to release the bolt while restraining the operating rod with your little finger alongside the action. Then let the bolt ease forward to about half-way open and let it go at that point, which significantly reduces bolt velocity. Worst is to drop the round into the chamber and then let the bolt slam forward full force, not slowed by a round coming out of the mag. (At this point, someone may already be typing how they fired 50 truckloads of Federal primers without a slamfire, etc. etc. etc. If so, wonderful -- it's your face, eyes and fingers, and by all means, carry on.)

BTW, have you heard the complaints from the various PPC and other target revolver shooters who have their pistols tuned so light that they will only ignite Federal primers, and who can't go shooting due to shortages of same? (File that under "Things that make ya go 'hmmmm.'") One other aspect of the M1/M1A mechanism worth noting is that the hammer/trigger group assembly and receiver assembly are not rigidly/permanently locked together, but are held together in part via their interface with the stock, which again, allows variances to creep in.

Another safety aspect is to make sure your brass is FL sized to proper headspace. No neck or partial sizing, as the brass must be a free, easy fit into the chamber, again to prevent resistance that can get the firing pin moving toward the primer earlier than you want when chambering. I've fired thousands of rounds through both M1/M1A's (was on a military shooting team during the M1A's heyday and fired both my own handloads and issue match ammo), and never had but 2 slam-fires. The first was a "double" fired in prone rapid-fire at Perry without incident. The second was with a match-grade M1 that had a superb trigger, tuned by one of the original M1 masters. However, it doubled, and one of the ejected cases showed a partial failure to fire in proper battery. The case was blown out straight like a .45-70 -- it had NO neck or shoulder any more, as it was exiting the chamber while pressure was too high. Luckily, no harm occurred, but it got my attention!! They are fine rifles, but do require a bit of attention, especially if either altered or worn.

A book which is inexpensive and gives a wealth of accuracy reloading information for all types of rifles, including a special chapter devoted strictly to the safe and efficient handloading of ammo for gas-guns (M1, M1A, AR-15) may be helpful. It is the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, and sells for about $22.00, IIRC. The gas-gun chapter details slam-fire issues and preventive strategies, headspacing your brass correctly, quality issues of various brass types, prolonging your brass life, etc. Example: Did you know that one setting of your sizing die does not produce the same cartridge case headspace with all types of brass? I.e., by actual measurement, the sizer die adjustment that set hard Lake City brass shoulders back 0.006" (max, for safety) would set soft Federal brass shoulders back 0.009"! If you are interested, you can get this book from Precision Shooting magazine's main office by calling 1-860-645-8776 (Eastern time). (And, no, I don't get any kick-backs from them! )

Sorry to get off on this tangent, but you're one of our 2 favorite moderators, and we gotta keep you safe and sound!!

While I no longer have any M1/M1A's (they went to feed my LEVERGUN habit!!), I still have a bunch of M1 clips. If you will please PM me your mailing address, I will send you a box of them, and a couple of the GI ratchet-style chamber brushes.

Hope this helps,

John

[oldguy]

yes. the real love for the rifle comes after you have shot it a lot. i use imr 4064, sierra 168 gr
matchkings. an amazing rifle.

[otteray]

John, you write so well.
The information that you shared was great!

[RSY]

Anyone know the scoop on the one's being advertised by the DCM in the current "American Rifleman" that claim no import marks, etc., etc.? Where are these rifles from?

[Griff]

My second favorite rifle. Better be... it's what I learned to shoot with.

[JNG]

I really lucked out and was able to get one of CMP's Services Specials. To say that the rifle looks great does not give it justice. The rifle cames with a CMP stock, I finished it with 10 coats of Formby's Tung Oil and OOOO steel wool. The rifle shoots like a house fire. I was using Greek ammo then. I have loaded up 10 clips with different powders and weights, using 150 grain bullets. The bad is that we have 2+ feet of snow on the ground. So I must be patient.
CMP has the SS for $895.00 on their web site. As I said, I lucked out and was able to get mine this fall for $795.00.
If you want a shooter and a touch of history, you sure can not go wrong with these rifles.
CMP stated that they will have more 30-06 for sell late Feb. or early March.

[rjohns94]

The Garand would have to be my all time favorite rifle. Good luck with yours. I have shot them for 30 some years, and use to carry one in Va. hunting. I didn't mind the weight at all and while sitting on stand, just kept smiling and admiring that Garand. They are shooters and I started military match shooting with a .308 conversion version. I still prefer the 30-06 and I have been hunting for a nice non-import for years. The two I own currently are unfired in crates issued to me by the navy armory when I was competing and got to choose a prize.

[ceb]

I've owned 3 over the years, maybe some day I can afford to keep one. I have the CMP brochure and will order one when I get back to work. One of my favorite rifles and I need one to set next to my Inland M1 carbine.

[Charles]

My love affair with the Garand goes by to the mid-50's when I was a Cadet at August Military Academy. I have owned several of them over the years. Ten years ago I spotted a primo example in the gun rack of a local hock shop and bought it for $450.00. It appeared to be unfired since the 1957 Red River Arsenal rebuild. It has a 1944 SA receiver.

The 03, 03A3 and the Garand are the last rifles I would ever part with. I cut my centerfire rifles shooting teeth on the firearms. My heirs can scrap over them when I am gone.

[Noah Zark]

HOBIE:

P/M me your mailing addy and I'll send you a mess of M1 ammo clips. I may have a bayo I can part with, too.

I have five (5) M1 Rifles and love them. One I had rebarreled by Fulton to 308.

Noah

[madman4570]

Got 2 of those wonderful guns. (use them in the M1 Shooting Matches.)
Fantastic Guns! Both of mine are manufactured by Springfield Armory.
First gun I ever used for deer Hunting in Pa at age 12 (was fixed to manual worked action)Back to semi now!

[2ndovc]

Bought my Winchester M1 about 15 years ago. Shot at Camp Perry a few times. Lots of fun.
Did better at 600 yrds than I did at 200. Go figure.




jb

[J Miller]

I've always wanted one. Never had the where with all to buy one.
This thread is going into my favorites as reference material.

Joe

[Hobie]

Joe,

I put off getting one for years even though I shot friends' guns and helped them load for them. It is unfortunate that one of those friends got my loading notes but it seems John in MS has got me covered!

[madman4570]

With the M1--If any of you guy's have never had the chance to try a CMP M1 shoot,do it.
Not to say that it means everything on your real shooting ability but that sure puts some proof in the pudding.
It will clearly show your strengths and weaknesses.
Most of the time a club will let you use one of the club guns and the ammo cost is very cheap from them.

Some reason the 100 yard matches seem to be what is drawing a lot of the new shooters.

Example below how it goes---------Have a blast and try it.

Prone, slow-fire: Two minutes for two sighting shots, followed by twenty minutes to fire twenty
shots for record, using the MR-31 target. (The 600 yard target is scaled-down for use at 100 yards.)
Only one round at a time will be loaded into the rifle.

Prone, rapid-fire: Two minutes for two sighting shots, followed by eighty seconds to fire ten
shots for record, using the SR-21 target. (The 300 yard target is scaled-down for use at 100 yards.)
Competitors will be required to perform one reload of their rifle during the string, beginning the
string with only two rounds loaded on most semi-autos and five rounds loaded on most boltactions.

Sitting, rapid-fire: Two minutes for two sighting shots, followed by eighty seconds to fire ten
shots for record, using the SR-1 target. (The 200 yard target is scaled-down for use at 100 yards.)
Competitors will be required to perform one reload of their rifle during the string, beginning the
string with only two rounds loaded on most semi-autos and five rounds loaded on most boltactions.

Standing, slow-fire: Two minutes for two sighting shots, followed by ten minutes to fire ten
shots for record, using the SR-1 target. (The 200 yard target is scaled-down for use at 100 yards.)
Only one round will be loaded into the rifle at a time.

Most of the guy's at the clubs are great people and will really help you out and even probably spot for you.

[Bullard4075]

I think John about covered it all.

I got my Garand (Springfield) years ago from the CMP -think it was called the DCM back then- after shooting in a match and
filling out the paperwork. Costs a little over $200 IIRC.
Serial number points to build in 1944 so I doubt it saw action , Korea maybe.
Recommend one takes what John says to heart as there are a number of subtle ways to hurt a M1
through rough or improper handling.

[stew71]

One of my favorite rifles....mine's a restored 1956 H&R that I've upgraded with a match trigger and match sights.

Hobie, if you're interested in another recipe for the Garand, here's mine, using resources drawn from the NRA and the Sierra reloading manual as well as the Hodgon/IMR manual.

Winchester brass ( I get about 4 loadings after being full length sized each time.)
Sierra 150gr MatchKing or GameKing
47.0 gr IMR4895
CCI #34 milspec primer

I used to use LC or the Greek surplus brass, but I'd get only about 6 or 7 reloads before I'd have to chuck them. But if I use that for my 03 Springfield and neck size, I get up to 10 or 12 reloads. Hence the reason to use the cheapo Win or Fed commercial brass in the Garand. I've chrono'd this load at about 2650fps and stays in the black at 200 yds. Maybe not the X-ring, but that's my problem...not the rifles.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing if you haven't done it yet, you may want to down load the entire M1 manual from the CMP site.
On handloads for it they say "A good standard load for the M1 Rifle would utilize a powder with the burning characteristics of IMR 4895, coupled with a bullet of either 172/175 grain weight at approximately 2660fops or 150 gr bullet at approximately 2700 fps. Other loads are possible but must be worked up to with extreme caution."

[Yodar]

Hi Hobie,

Watch out for "M1 Thumb". If you inadvertently close the bolt on your thumb when loading the enbloc, it will really, really hurt! Loading the M1 correctly and safely is a technique to be learned. I haven't mastered it yet. When at the range and shooting from the bench, I hold the bolt back with my right hand and push the enbloc in with a short dowl. The other shooters laugh, but I haven't caught my thumb. Too bad Mr. Garand didn't design the M1 with a detachable box magazine.

Here are a few references for you: The NRA has a booklet entitled "The M1 Rifle" that is quite informative. The May-June, 1989 issue of Handloader (#139) has an article entitled "Reloading for Semiauto Rifles" by C.E. Harris that gives several reloads for the M1 as well as other semiautos. See page 26. The Nov./Dec., 1994 issue of the American Rifleman, page 65, had some reloading suggestions for the M1. In the July-August, 1992 issue of Handloader, page 57, Ken Waters answers a question about reloading the M1. He recommends medium burning powders like IMR-4895 and IMR-4064.

Good luck and watch that thumb!

[Bullard4075]

Here is an excuse to go watch the movie Saving Private Ryan again.
Quite a few good Garand action shots throughout the movie.

[madman4570]

Yodar,

Trick is after you rack open the bolt and it's locked open.
When you push in your clip,keep some down pressure with your thumb about right in the middle section of ammo clip.Even after the clip latches you still keep putting pressure on it.Now you QUICKLY remove the thumb/hand up and also to the right.Then even if you are ever a little slow(shouldn't be slow though)the bolt will strike against the edge of your loading hand instead of wacking your thumb.

If shooting single feed like at certain events if required ,use a single loading device meant for such.
Pratice makes perfect--------Good Luck Friend!

I bet Hobie like same with all the other guns, with the M1 could sure show me a thing or two on stuff I didn't know.
Hobie----Rocks!

[John in MS]

Hi, folks,

Lots of good comments here! Re: M1 Thumb, the method I was taught was to push the clip into the receiver until it locks in, using the right thumb in the middle of the cartridge cases, as mentioned above. Keep your 4 fingers stiff and straight, alongside the action of the rifle. When the bolt releases, your little finger will be right in front of the op rod handle, and will catch the op rod. You restrain the op rod and then, as mentioned above, move your hand up quickly out of the way, and the op rod goes forward. Impossible to get M1 Thumb while doing this, in my experience and very easy to learn.

Now, with all the "poodle shooter" and "mouse gun" jokes about the M16, I suppose it's only natural that I got AR-PINKIE. Yes, while shooting offhand, I put a round in the chamber and with the rifle shouldered, put my fingers through the carry handle opening to trip the bolt release. Only problem was, my little finger had strayed into the ejection port, where it was met by the bolt slamming forward, full force. OW!

I had no cuts, luckily, but had blood blisters in a perfect imprint of the bolt face/locking lugs
on my finger, that were a pretty lasting reminder not to do that again!

John

[JohndeFresno]

Great information on this thread!

I love my battered ol' Greek loaner Garand - a NATO rifle loaned to and abused by the Greek Army. The rifle itelf is in great condition, but the stock has "character," including some divot marks in the right buttstock where the soldier(s) rapped the front edge of the clips to align the bullets prior to reloading the firearm. I purchased it a while back from CMP.

I have a fair amount of Greek (Pyrkal) and Lake City ammo; but the ranges around here don't allow the military magnetic bullets*, so I have not yet given my rifle a decent sighting in at anything over 30 yards. I had to wait through the "dry season" of no primers this last year or so, and will start reloading non-magnetic rounds for this next year (when it warms up a bit).

Speaking of usable loads, here's a link in one of my online archives. You can download the out of publication great old "American Rifleman" 1986 article by John R. Clarke, "Reloading for the M1 Garand." It's a 4.2 MB pdf (Adobe Acrobat) file. Since it is over 20 years old, I am pretty sure I don't have any copyright infringement; but I'm not up on that law. Somebody please tell me if I'm wrong and I'll take down the link and delete this part of my posting!

If you have broadband or other fast internet connections, you will be okay to download this file. You need the free Adobe Acrobat reader to open it up. The copy is not perfect; I scanned it myself from a copy of the original article - you get third generation. But it is a great read, with several loads and some more good advice.

http://drop.io/hidden/wdbs3egku9heut/as ... 1wZGY%253D

* A Visalia, CA range allowed military rounds for special NRA sponsored shoots a year or two ago; I don't know if they still do. But I want to sight in and develop my expertise on my own time, first.

[Hobie]

Thanks John. I glommed onto the article.

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks John. I glommed onto the article.

Hobie, you brought me here. It's the least I could do. I'm glad it's useful.

[Hobie]

I don't remember shooters using the 200 gr. bullets but I wasn't really into shooting the Garand, just helping buddies.

[Hillbilly]

I have a '44 SA with all correct parts... but it got "new wood" somehow along the way. Shame... someone knocked a chunk out of the handguard before the rifle got to me.

Never have documented this rifle...but there is a nagging suspicion it spent a lot of time in a National Guard Armory someplace. The metal just looks to nice to have been issued and there is no evidence of a refinish job.

[Hobie]

Nothing wrong with those National Guard arms rooms! Many of the old NG supply sergeants and unit administrators were combat veterans. They knew how to maintain their weapons.

[awp101]

Thanks JohndeFresno! I've d/l it for future reference.

[Hobie]

Thanks to B.R. and Doyle for the "stuff"... Even an article by John Feamster in there! Seems I have some MORE books to order. Wife is going nuts!

[TX Gun Runner]

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks JohndeFresno! I've d/l it for future reference.

I'm glad you could use it, AWP101.

I can't find the article for sale at the NRA site; only resellers; so I guess I'm not treading on any legal toes. I'll keep the link active for a while.