WAY OT: Need electrical wiring help

[J Miller]

OK, I know enough about house wiring to scare the stuffings out of me.
So we have a switched receptacle in the basement that quit. I guess the switch part gave out. Breakers good, power is good at the switch.
So we bought a new one. I figured out which circuit it was (same as my computer is on - great luck) and killed it. Then pulled the cover off and pulled the receptacle out of the old metal box. It's mounted on a 4"x4" that supports the floor. There are no ground wires to the receptacle box.

Left side:

IMG_0073.JPG

Back side:

IMG_0074.JPG

OK, here is where this gets hinky.
First: Who ever wired this thing wired one of electrical wires to the metal ground strap on the back of the switch/receptacle and that screws directly to the metal box. No ground to anything. Why we haven't been fried by this I don't know.
Second: Much of the house is wired using what looks like aluminum wiring. You can see this in the first pic. Nothing I can do about that but move out as fast as we can. It's a rental.
Third: They ran a connector wire on the back side to both screws and that has gotten hot. You can see the discoloration.

OK, now, the new switch/receptacle is similar to the old one except the on / of position is reversed.
Left side:

IMG_0076.JPG

Right side:

IMG_0075.JPG

The HOT wire is the lower one on the right side.

Now, what I need to know is how do I wire this thing so it works right and we don't get fried? Please don't tell me to call the landlord, he won't even fix the toilet seal and that's ruining the floor. And I sure as heck can't afford an electrician.
I just need to know how to redo this switch.

Joe

[mescalero1]

I meant the swine flu thing.

[Rusty]

I saw a picture of a tombstone once it read:


Here lies Jose Gonzales

He was a good father
A great husband
but a bad electrician.



Be careful...

[J Miller]

Right, and I went to all the trouble to take pics and post this just for you guys entertainment.
I know enough to be careful that's why I'm asking questions.

Duhhhhhh......

Joe

[madman4570]

Joe,


My opinion????????
I would not perform ANY wiring to that house(since you do not own it,if something goes wrong you could be thought responsible for the home burning down etc.(say,insurance investigators find out that a non-professional very recently performed some wiring on the rental owner's home WITHOUT permission????????

Tell that owner that this needs immediate attention because of a possible fire threat.
If he refuses call(or tell him you will call the Code Enforcement agency.

Don't give them any reason for you being on the hook for a defective wire job!

That's why you are paying rent!

[Nath]

Joe, surely the earth strip is not needed if you only have a live and neaytral coming in.

I don't fully understand, am I looking at a socket for a power supply and combined light switch?

Could the earth strip as you call it just be a neatral return for the power socket?

Nath.

[J Miller]

Joe,


My opinion????????
I would not perform ANY wiring to that house(since you do not own it,if something goes wrong you could be thought responsible for the home burning down etc.(say,insurance investigators find out that a non-professional very recently performed some wiring on the rental owner's home WITHOUT permission????????

Tell that owner that this needs immediate attention because of a possible fire threat.
If he refuses call(or tell him you will call the Code Enforcement agency.

Don't give them any reason for you being on the hook for a defective wire job!

That's why you are paying rent!

madman,
You do have a point.

Joe, surely the earth strip is not needed if you only have a live and neaytral coming in.

I don't fully understand, am I looking at a socket for a power supply and combined light switch?

Could the earth strip as you call it just be a neatral return for the power socket?

Nath.

Nath,
I don't know. That's the whole point. Been playing around with the new switch/receptacle and I think I got it figured out.
But ..... ???
What I do know is to have a grounded system it takes three wires. Hot, neutral, and ground. The green screw on the bottom that connects to the strap should be the ground wire, not the neutral one. Whoever wired this thing didn't do things like I've seen them done before.

Joe

[Batman1939]

JOE: I have wired a few simple buildings, but can't help you here. I agree 100% with Madman4570. Your landlord stands to be liable if this "weird" wiring causes some serious calamity. On the other hand, your having the high legal ground won't help you if you or yours is harmed. You should assert your rights as a paying tenant who deserves to live in a safely-wired house.

Good Luck!

[Nath]

Your electric bill will be over high if you are as it appears trying to heat the earth up J. Miller is the cause of global warming

Do you have circuit breakers? We call them "trips" or the old fuses?

If you have the "trip" type it should be trippin' off all the time if it is wired wrong, a fuse could would tolerate it more. A direct link to earth after passing through a bulb could cause the bulb to blow too.

Thats why I suspect it may be fine unless you are having the problems mentioned above.

I understand the liability thing but it ain't rocket science. If you are on fuses, put the weakest fuse wire you can find in the circuit so it goes first should you foul up.

You ain't gonna go and test it with ya' tongue now are you

N.

[Nath]

Your electric bill will be over high if you are as it appears trying to heat the earth up J. Miller is the cause of global warming

Do you have circuit breakers? We call them "trips" or the old fuses?

If you have the "trip" type it should be trippin' off all the time if it is wired wrong, a fuse could would tolerate it more. A direct link to earth after passing through a bulb could cause the bulb to blow too.

Thats why I suspect it may be fine unless you are having the problems mentioned above.

I understand the liability thing but it ain't rocket science. If you are on fuses, put the weakest fuse wire you can find in the circuit so it goes first should you foul up.

You ain't gonna go and test it with ya' tongue now are you

N. Oops I fouled up

[Terry Murbach]

HEY JOSE...CAN YOU SET YOUR GUNS OUT WHERE WE CAN EASILY SEE 'EM ALL AFTER THE SERVICES ARE OVER ?? YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO JUST ANY YAHOOS WHEN YOU CAN LET US TAKE OUR PICKS...

[tman]

aluminum wire is a fire hazzard. MOVE!

[Gun Smith]

For your receptacle to act as a switched plug it needs to be wired this way.
The line (incoming power source) has white and black insulated wires. If there is also a BOND wire, it will be bare. This is 2 wire Romex. Looking at the plug FRONT, the white wire goes onto the LEFT side LOWER (plug) terminal. The Black wire will go on the UPPER (swich) terminal. They are not connected to each other (direct short). The RIGHT side of the switch supplies the power to the receptacle, by linking the two terminals together (as it appears they are).
If there is a BOND wire in the incoming Romex, it is fastened to the metal box. The BOND will be completed to the receptacle through the mounting ears on the receptacle.
A second wire can also feed another receptacle down the line (load) by connecting it to the white to white terminal on the left side, and the black to either the upper or lower RIGHT side terminals (it will be switched), or on the upper LEFT side black to black (always hot). If the second wire (load) has a BOND (bare) wire it needs to connect to the box also. If there is no incoming (from the power source) BOND wire, your box and recptacle will NOT be grounded. This is the standard before about 1964.
A word of caution, Aluminum house wire used in tens of thousands of mobile and stick built homes is dangerous. The aluminum wire collapses, over time, under the screw at the terminal and loosens enough to create enough heat to ignite the surronding surfaces adjacent. I would not spend the night in a home with loose aluminum wiring. Also, if the electrician nicked the wire when he stripped it, that nick will enlarge and create resistance also. Bad, bad business!

EDIT!
I looked at your first picture again and I do see the jumper on the left side of the old receptacle. As long as the incoming wire connected to it was the white wire, there was no current present. This is an illegal way to create a BOND to the third (mouth) on the receptacle. Do NOT do that! It appears that you do have a wire (load) down line out of this box. Just wire it per my description. DON'T connect any bare wires to any white wires and you will be OK.
This looks like an attempt to create a grounding source for a washing machine. If you need this equipment to be GROUNDED, you can run a ground wire to a COLD water pipe from the machine. They are a good ground source. This wire needs to be the same size, or larger, than the line (incoming) wire.
Electrical codes vary a bit state to state, so an inspector from your local building department might want to take a look at what you've got.

[J Miller]

Nath,

Nope not gonna give it any tongue .

Gunsmith,

I "think" I understand what you are saying. But these old wires don't seem to have any black or white insulation under the old black cloth outer wrapping. It all seems to be black. And I don't see the bare wire you mentioned either.

I'm gonna study it a bit, but I'm thinking I'll just gently put it back together and walk away from it.
Wife called the landlords number, but it will be cold in Death Valley before they ever get back to us I'll bet.

Joe

[Gun Smith]

Hi Joe, It appears you may have what is referred to as "knob and tube" wiring from the twenties, very old Romex wire from the thirties. If you still know what wires (incoming) were on the LEFT side terminals of the receptacle originally, they will be the LOWER neutral (white) wire. The left UPPER is the hot (black) wire.
Another thing, I did not mention about the BOND wire from the washing machine to the cold water pipe. The cold water pipe must be continous metal into, at least into 8' of, dirt to be safe, outside of the house.

EDIT
After looking again at the first picture, I think I see the lower wire is silver colored. If so, it is the neutral wire. The old wiring was identifiied by tinning the copper wire used as the neutral to ID it. It is not aluminum. The upper looks to be bare copper, it is the hot wire.

[J Miller]

Hi Joe, It appears you may have what is referred to as "knob and tube" wiring from the twenties, very old Romex wire from the thirties. If you still know what wires (incoming) were on the LEFT side terminals of the receptacle originally, they will be the LOWER neutral (white) wire. The left UPPER is the hot (black) wire.
Another thing, I did not mention about the BOND wire from the washing machine to the cold water pipe. The cold water pipe must be continous metal into, at least into 8' of, dirt to be safe, outside of the house.

EDIT
After looking again at the first picture, I think I see the lower wire is silver colored. If so, it is the neutral wire. The old wiring was identifiied by tinning the copper wire used as the neutral to ID it. It is not aluminum. The upper looks to be bare copper, it is the hot wire.

The house was built in the 50s. From the looks of it with reused materials, by the house owner.
The top wire is actually silver colored too. The insulation on the top wire is a shiny color while the bottom wire is dull.
I suppose I could kill the circuit and scrape a bit off the ends to verify copper or AL.
This outlet is not the one for the wash machine. That one is much newer with proper three wire white plastic wiring.
This one is just in the middle of the basement.
Here's another pic:

Loading bench c web.JPG

One more thing. The old outlet is reversed from the new one.
The new one has the HOT connection on the right side where they put the hot side on the left side of the old one.

Also what about the jumper on the right side of the old unit.
Does this kind of outlet need that kind of jumper?

Joe

[wecsoger]

My friend, this is scaring me to death for your safety and your future welfare.

I don't know what the local code is, but that method of adding a ground to an outlet is something that should *never* be done.

You do need to verify if there's aluminum wire - there are receptacles, switches and outlets for copper and ones for aluminum. And please, please do NOT mix the two!

If for some reason any inspector looks at all that, I'm suspecting legal paperwork in the future.

Seriously, do not repair it, do not change it, do not have anything to do with it. Gently put it back in the wall and cover it with tape so no one can use it. If there's a fire, and it gets out you were in there, that is a Not Good situation.

I would even take up a collection or send you money for a long extension cord so you won't have to use that wiring, I am that serious about it.

Please consider moving. And after you move, call the building code people. That place is looking like a deathtrap.

[adirondakjack]

The wire is not aluminum, it's too old, and is cloth covered. Your first pic clearly shows the "darker" wire going to the brass terminal, the lighter wire to the tinned (silver) terminal, and a jumper on the other side to create a switched outlet. The darkened jumper wire was probably loose, arced and scorched at one time.

So far so good, even though it is not properly grounded per the post 1968 code. Follow the same convention, take the wire that is now attached to the yellow brass terminal and attach it to the yellow brass terminal on the "line" side of the switch, and the wire now attached to the silver (tinned) terminal and attach it to the silver terminal on the line side of the new one. Place a jumper on the others side like they did to swtich the load (outlet).

IF you need ground, do NOT put that jumper like they did to the box, period. ya make ya one using a metal water pipe or by drilling the concrete floor (I assume) at the base of the post and driving a proper ground stake into the ground, and wiring it to the green screw provided on the outlet frame, using bare wire of sufficient size. sans any ground, make sure to only use double insulated stuff (not yer antique fan or old metal-cased drill yer daddy left ya..... )

[Gun Smith]

Hi Joe, Sounds like early Romex like adorondakjack said.
Anyway, on any plug receptacle the LONG slot in the front ON THE LEFT is always the neutral (white) wire. With your switch/plug device (switch up) it's at the left bottom. Yes, the terminals on the right side of the old device needs a jumper to work.
Think of electricity as running water. It flows through your switch (water valve) so you can shut it off, and into the bucket (the plug) for you to use. A single pole switch always disconnects the HOT wire.
As I said, codes vary a bit, and the Ground to waterpipe for a washing machine was allowed in my area by the local inspector. Since you don't have a washer at that location, you can ignor that anyway.

[J Miller]

OK,

I think I'm getting the idea. Just one more question.

On the old outlet they have both wires connected to the left side, and the jumper on the right.
Now Gun Smith says the wide slot is always neutral and that is the same from the old to the new outlet, but the switch on/off position is reversed. Does that make a difference in how it's wired?
And the new unit it is marked "HOT WIRE" on the Lower Right screw. Both screws on the right are interconnected so if one is hot, so's the other. I confirmed this with the continuity setting on my meter, would it still need a jumper?
And would I still wire the switch on the LEFT side as the old one was?
This is all I need to know now.

Joe

[AJMD429]

My computer will never load embedded pictures consistently, so I just caught a glimpse of one, but it almost looks like they took a 240-volt circuit and 'divided' it between the two outlets in that box. It is a 'common' practice on 'utility' circuits such as in kitchens, etc, where you may have high amperage appliances, but not want to run heavy gauge wire (to save money). You can use the third 'neutral' or 'ground' wire (which MUST run all the way to the breaker box and be attached to the house ground) as the 'middle' so you get your two 120-volt circuits. THAT'S the problem, if they did that - I don't see any evidence they did that. Dangerous majorly, if I'm correct.

Get your voltmeter out, and check to see what voltage is coming into the box. I'm worried there's 240 volts there.

Theoretically, you'd have to have a 'double' breaker to get 240 volts, but I'd never make that assumption in a place someone else wired long ago, and modified by who knows who.

I'm with the "call the landlord" people (and as a "landlord" I don't say that lightly).

[J Miller]

My computer will never load embedded pictures consistently, so I just caught a glimpse of one, but it almost looks like they took a 240-volt circuit and 'divided' it between the two outlets in that box. It is a 'common' practice on 'utility' circuits such as in kitchens, etc, where you may have high amperage appliances, but not want to run heavy gauge wire (to save money). You can use the third 'neutral' or 'ground' wire (which MUST run all the way to the breaker box and be attached to the house ground) as the 'middle' so you get your two 120-volt circuits. THAT'S the problem, if they did that - I don't see any evidence they did that. Dangerous majorly, if I'm correct.

Get your voltmeter out, and check to see what voltage is coming into the box. I'm worried there's 240 volts there.

Theoretically, you'd have to have a 'double' breaker to get 240 volts, but I'd never make that assumption in a place someone else wired long ago, and modified by who knows who.

I'm with the "call the landlord" people (and as a "landlord" I don't say that lightly).

Nope, just 120 volts. That's one of the first things I checked.
Sorry about the pics, but to put then through photobucket is a big pain in the behind.

Joe

[AJMD429]

Yeah, I FINALLY got to see the first picture, and realized (of course if I'd read your text I'd not have needed the picture) that you weren't talking about a duplex recepticle...

I am SO tired of my browser, my computer, my anti-viral software, and this website combining to make me LOG IN EVERY FREAKING TEN SECONDS SOMETIMES (literally). I sometimes barely have time to type up a message, Ctrl-A to select it all, Ctrl-C to copy it all, and THEN re-log-in (even though the upper left corner says I'm "Logged In"), and IMMEDIATELY upon seeing the "post" window once more, press Ctrl-V to paste the message, the IMMEDIATELY clicking on "submit" to try to post it. Even doing it that way I have to repeat the paste/post process several times on occasion.

Of course OTHER DAYS, I can post for half an hour with no re-logging-in needed.

I HATE THIS WASTE OF TIME (of course if I'd get off my duff and spend four hours "solving" it [hopefully] then I'd ultimately save time, due to not wasting ten minutes a day re-logging-in).


Hmmm...........



...do you think my WIFE is behind all this...?

[L_Kilkenny]

Joe, been doing the electrical thing for 20 years now. It's gonna be easier if you don't think of that device as one unit but as a separate switch and a separate receptacle. The top 2 screws on either side are for the switch, Ignore the bottom 2 screws for now. OK, for a switch you apply the "hot" wire to one terminal and the other terminal is where the switch leg comes out. So the top screw on the left side (as shown in pic) is where you apply the "hot" and the top screw is where the switch leg comes out. Now lets look at the bottom of the device. It will have a silver screw and a brass screw. The neutral (white) goes to the silver. Now your brass screw you run in to the switched leg side of the switch. If you look at pic #2 that jumper is going from the switched leg to the brass screw(hot side) of receptacle. On the right side you'll need to hook the neutral to the silver screw and your hot to the top screw.

Now for the jumper going to green screw, that's a big no-no we see home owners (and some idiot electricians) do all the time. Not gonna explain why I'm just gonna say DON'T DO IT!. If you don't have a ground you have 3 options. #1) Ground the green screw with #14 or #12 wire to a source of ground like a ground rod or copper water pipe. #2) Install a switch/receptacle combo device that does not have the grounding prong (third hole). #30 Install a switch/GFCI receptacle combo device. Bonding (jumping) the green screw to the silver screw or leaving the green screw ungrounded without GFCI protection IS NOT AN OPTION.

I'll also throw in another vote for letting the landlord handle it but make sure he or the electrician does it right or you're gonna be the one risking a shock. Also, it's highly unlikely you have aluminum wire. In older wire including early 2 wire cable (called romex) they used copper with a tin plating. Perfectly safe.

Hope this helps,
LK

[J Miller]

Joe, been doing the electrical thing for 20 years now. It's gonna be easier if you don't think of that device as one unit but as a separate switch and a separate receptacle. The top 2 screws on either side are for the switch, Ignore the bottom 2 screws for now. OK, for a switch you apply the "hot" wire to one terminal and the other terminal is where the switch leg comes out. So the top screw on the left side (as shown in pic) is where you apply the "hot" and the top screw is where the switch leg comes out. Now lets look at the bottom of the device. It will have a silver screw and a brass screw. The neutral (white) goes to the silver. Now your brass screw you run in to the switched leg side of the switch. If you look at pic #2 that jumper is going from the switched leg to the brass screw(hot side) of receptacle. On the right side you'll need to hook the neutral to the silver screw and your hot to the top screw.

Now for the jumper going to green screw, that's a big no-no we see home owners (and some idiot electricians) do all the time. Not gonna explain why I'm just gonna say DON'T DO IT!. If you don't have a ground you have 3 options. #1) Ground the green screw with #14 or #12 wire to a source of ground like a ground rod or copper water pipe. #2) Install a switch/receptacle combo device that does not have the grounding prong (third hole). #30 Install a switch/GFCI receptacle combo device. Bonding (jumping) the green screw to the silver screw or leaving the green screw ungrounded without GFCI protection IS NOT AN OPTION.

I'll also throw in another vote for letting the landlord handle it but make sure he or the electrician does it right or you're gonna be the one risking a shock. Also, it's highly unlikely you have aluminum wire. In older wire including early 2 wire cable (called romex) they used copper with a tin plating. Perfectly safe.

Hope this helps,
LK

LK,

Actually you just confused me even more.

Forget the old brown receptacle.

Lets look at the new white receptacle.
As I've said it's a bit different than the old one.
The two screws on the right are already connected by brass parts underneath. It looks to me as if all I'd have to do is put the hot wire on the brass screw at the top left and the neutral wire on the silver screw on the bottom left.

I know, forget the bogus ground on the green screw.

Joe

[L_Kilkenny]

LK,

Actually you just confused me even more.

Forget the old brown receptacle.

Lets look at the new white receptacle.
As I've said it's a bit different than the old one.
The two screws on the right are already connected by brass parts underneath. It looks to me as if all I'd have to do is put the hot wire on the brass screw at the top left and the neutral wire on the silver screw on the bottom left.

I know, forget the bogus ground on the green screw.

Joe

You got it.

LK

[J Miller]

Thanks, gonna go do it. Will be off line for a while cos the puter is on the same circuit as the project switch.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Hope he comes back......

No, seriously, the last post made perfect sense. the modern receptacle, like most, is designed with the jumper, a time saver when installing it....

[L_Kilkenny]

Hope he comes back......

No, seriously, the last post made perfect sense. the modern receptacle, like most, is designed with the jumper, a time saver when installing it....

Actually Jack, the way that device is being used at Joe's place is different than any other time I've seen that device used. Most of the time that device is used if you want to add a receptacle to an existing switch location controlling a light. You wire your "hot" to the side with the jumper, your neutral to the silver screw and the wire that goes to the light (at a different location) goes on the brass screw above the silver one. The receptacle is "hot" all the time and not switched in that application. You're right, The jumper does make it easy.

LK

[J Miller]

Gunsmith, A-Jack, LK,
I'm back. No smoke, no sparks, no zapping noises. And it works!!!!! Whooo Hoooo. Thanks for your help.

LK what you just said about how this switch / receptacle is supposed to work made complete sense. I'd looked at it so many times that the way it's being used is what did not make sense.
So I wired it exactly as it was and it works.
I checked it after it was all in and it's got 120.5 V, switch on.
And 1.12 ± and fluctuating V, switch off. Don't know if it did that before, as I never checked it while it was working.

I plugged in the space heater ( oil type ) we've been using in the outlet and the breaker didn't trip. I musta done something right.

Those of you expecting a fire sale sorry, maybe next time.
All kidding aside, I do appreciate your concern. Thanks.

Joe

[L_Kilkenny]

Job well done there Joe! Need a Job?

LK

[J Miller]

Job well done there Joe! Need a Job?

LK

Thank you. As a matter of fact ... yes I do.

Joe

[Gun Smith]

Hey Joe, Glad I could help.

[Nath]

Well done Joe, as I expressed ain't rocket science

Is there anything this board can't fix

Nath.

[J Miller]

Well done Joe, as I expressed ain't rocket science

Is there anything this board can't fix

Nath.

You're right. I'll bet if we put our heads together we could conjure up a cure for the common cold or at least sinus headaches.

Joe