.45acp V. .357---Let's Settle This Once and For All

[Blaine]

.357 is THE BOMB out of a rifle, but the proper handgun platform for protection in the woods or city is the 1911 and the .45acp.... Col. Cooper said so and that's good enough for me. I personally watched 230fmj go thru 7 gallon milk jugs full of water and that's 'nuff said Flame Suit On

[Machado]

In times of frivolous lawsuits, one must be extra careful with the .45. I've heard that the second shot from a .45 is, usually, profanation of the corpse.
Antonio

[Nath]

Whats to settle? Two tremendous cartridges.

Nath.

[J Miller]

.

[Modoc ED]

For someone who is proficient with semi-automatic pistols, I pretty much agree with you. However, for someone who is not proficient with semi-automatic pistols, I disagree with you.

Don't forget the .45ACP cal. revolver. Does everything a 1911 can do and is a good choice for a novice with little or no experience with a semi-automatic pistol.

[Modoc ED]

Nah, the .45 Colt trumps 'em both.

Joe

Way to take the thread Off Topic Joe.

[mescalero1]

I think it is important to remember that a lot of the empirical data on the .357 comes from a time when the overwhelming majority of LEO's in the country carried .357 revolvers, hence the overwhelming majority of people who were shot, were shot with .357's.

[Triggernosis]

For someone who is proficient with semi-automatic pistols, I pretty much agree with you. However, for someone who is not proficient with semi-automatic pistols, I disagree with you.

Don't forget the .45ACP cal. revolver. Does everything a 1911 can do and is a good choice for a novice with little or no experience with a semi-automatic pistol.

I agree with Ed on this. I've been around firearms all my life, but I still get the willies when I handle a semi-auto pistol. Revolvers are my thang!

[jdad]

I agree with Ed on this. I've been around firearms all my life, but I still get the willies when I handle a semi-auto pistol. Revolvers are my thang!

I'm in the same boat. I've tried autos, but I just keep going back to wheel guns. The only auto I own is a Sig 228 that I keep telling myself I will carry concealed some day.

[Blaine]

I'll cede the launching device I just think moon clips would be a real PITA....

[mescalero1]

I shoot full moon clips in my modified 1917, they are really good & fast.

[Buck Elliott]

So let's see... Which is better: Choice # 3, or choice #5...?

Shoot whatever you feel most comfortable with, and if you survive the fracas, we'll talk about it.

[adirondakjack]

A 45 caliber hole every time, (and maybe more). Use whatever launcher works for YOU. In the days of wheelguns for police, .357 beat the pants off the .38s and .32s most cops were carrying. But nowadays, many cops are revolver-illiterate and a .45 in a semi makes more sense than a .357 FOR THEM.

That said, harking back to the LA bank shootout, my ole dad, seeing the fiilm opined "An old time State Trooper with a 4" .357 and a cool head woulda ended this thing a LOT sooner than a bunch of kids spraying and praying" (thinking the ability to make a head shot from a rested position).

[Modoc ED]

Surprisingly, moon clips are easy to use. I had a S&W Model 625 in .45ACP some years ago and used full moon clips in it. In a large Speed Loader case, I could carry 4 full moon clips loaded with 6-rounds of .45ACP ea. That gave me a total 30-rounds at hand (6 in the gun, 24 in the case). Got rid of the gun but sill have the full moon clips (about 200) and a couple full moon clip wrenches.

Moon clips are very fast for reloading.

[nemhed]

This won't be settled here! I do admire Jeff Cooper, but I don't worship at the altar of the Holy .45. Didn't people claim that a .45 would blow a guy's leg or arm clean off? I do feel a 1911 is a pretty antiquated platform and there are better platforms out there for a combat handgun. Yeah, I went there, let the flames begin!

[mescalero1]

Yes,
they are.

[buckeyeshooter]

I carry a .45 in an autoloader and 44 mag in a revolver. I would have no qualms with a 357 but I like a bit more power.

[Hobie]

In times of frivolous lawsuits, one must be extra careful with the .45. I've heard that the second shot from a .45 is, usually, profanation of the corpse.
Antonio

Good to see you here again Antonio!!! Great opening comment, too!

[madman4570]

Can't really choose??
I like my Colt 1991A1 about the same as my 2.5" Colt .357 Magnum Carry.
Both will do the job,so I say it's just what you favor.

[COSteve]

While I agree on the 357mag in a carbine, my understanding of the 45acp for 4 legged animals is that it leaves something to be desired. That said, I'd pack my custom 6" slide and bbl G20L with 17+1 rds of fire breathing 10mm over either my 6" G21L with 14+1 rds of 45acp+P or any 6" bbl'd 357mag revolver. Twice the capacity of a 1911, three times that of the revolver, plus much more power than the 45acp and a bit more than a 6" 357mag.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

... fire breathing 10mm over either ...

And so the metric system has entered what was once an American argument. Back over the big pond with you.

[Buck Elliott]

So much for the "...once and for all" thing, eh...?

[76/444]

This is a simple one!

For work less than 10 yds,... 45 acp.

For work past 10 yds.,... 357.

I just luv the K.I.S.S. method!







But I carry neither,... 44mag is the only thing good enough to protect my butt!

[Blaine]

So much for the "...once and for all" thing, eh...?

[mescalero1]

Is there something that big in the Chiricahuas?

[Buck Elliott]

Is there something that big in the Chiricahuas?

One never knows...

[COSteve]

... fire breathing 10mm over either ...

And so the metric system has entered what was once an American argument. Back over the big pond with you.

Yep, I thought it was time for a bit of stirring . . . . . . . .

[FWiedner]

It's my thought that both the .357 and the .45 are proven as man-stoppers. I do have my doubts about the .45 in the woods as anything but a finisher, but I'd like to be convinced one way or the other.

The only real question is the most effective platform for delivery of either round given the application.

We get back to a whether you can best manage a sem-auto pistol or a revolver.

[76/444]

Is there something that big in the Chiricahuas?

Black Bear,.... LOTS and LOTS of BIG BLACK BEARS,.... not to mention mountain lion and I have even seen a black mountain lion I thought was a panther.

The last recorded bear season kill I am familiar with , was about 5 years ago. they took something like 56 bear that year. Which was only a half dozen or so more than average kill rate.

My scabbard long arm has graduated from 44mag to 444.


p.s. I believe , if memory serves me,.... reading about the sighting of spotted leopard migrating from south of the border, as well!

[mescalero1]

Yeah, I am still trying to track that one down.
My ignorance comes from lack of knowledge of the terrain in your part of the world.
I am surprised to hear you have bear.

[mescalero1]

I have both revolver and auto.
The wheel gun sits in the house.
The auto gets carried, but not in the woods,
that is what the 629 is for.

[jeepnik]

I shoot full moon clips in my modified 1917, they are really good & fast.

Gotta second this one. My favorte revolver is a S&W1917. Great snake gun, and a wonderful anti people gun as well. After all it was "designed" just for shooting folks, no other reason, and it works good.

[76/444]

Yeah, I am still trying to track that one down.
My ignorance comes from lack of knowledge of the terrain in your part of the world.
I am surprised to hear you have bear.

Chiricahua Mountain Range nearly goes all the way south from my area to Mexico bad lands. About 50+ miles. If memory serves me, high peak is around 9,500 ft.,... we have snow up there as I write!

[mescalero1]

The pass is an honest 10,000,
I am at 7,300

[76/444]

p.s. FWIW,.... I have a dry wash that runs the length of my place. A pair of lions have been working it and the surrounding area (about 100 sq. miles) for almost 4 years now. Bobcat moved in to my neighbors barns and had kits a couple years ago. Come across a sort of cross bred (lion/lynx is the only way i can describe it) when I arrived here over a decade ago. Had a small (125 lb. ) black bear electrocute itself when it went up a power-line pole to get away from my dogs about 3 years ago. Havalina are a huge problem in this area. Herds of 20 or 30 are not uncommon.

Hope that helps?

[76/444]

The pass is an honest 10,000,
I am at 7,300

7,300.......Brrrrrrr,... sunny 4,500 here.

[cshold]

Night & Day

[Grizz]

13+1 X 45/100ths settles it for me...

[AJMD429]

Nah, the .45 Colt trumps 'em both.

Joe

[awp101]

So let's see... Which is better: Choice # 3, or choice #5...?

Shoot whatever you feel most comfortable with, and if you survive the fracas, we'll talk about it.

USMC Rules of Gunfighting Number 12: In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

I'm comfortable with both but I will give the slight edge for me to the 1911 platform.

[Alan Wood]

I personally have had this suspicion that the real reason for the 357's legendary stopping power was simply that it was the most powerfull pistol your average Law Enforcement Officer could reliably place shots where they counted. Yes if a 44 mag was placed acurately the perp would go down sooner than if a 357 was placed at the same place but officers spend most of there time on the street not the range! As for 45 acp given the prevalance of body armor in perps these days well let's just say I perfer something with a higher velocity. Although head shots solve that problem too.

[Steve Collins]

Let me put my flame suit on for this one:

If you get the willies from handling a semi-automatic pistol, you need to go back to school! A gun is a gun is a gun; you need to be comfortable with picking one or another up at any given time. THAT is the definition of a professional gun handler.

Back to the topic at hand; the .357 is a great round, and if you can't handle, for whatever reason, the recoil of the bigger magnums, then you will still be well served by the 'First Magnum.' I don't think anyone has ever said the .357 is some kind of weakling! Don't carry something you can't shoot well!

The .45 is no weak sister, either! There are other platforms for it than the 1911, though. The Glock 21SF is my choice, but the Springfield XD, HK, SIG-Sauer, etc, are all outstanding choices. Remember though, all handgun calibers are weak anti personnel rounds, so we have to be able to place multiple rounds on target, or targets, if need be. Having lots of rounds on board is never a bad thing.

[L_Kilkenny]

Yes if a 44 mag was placed acurately the perp would go down sooner than if a 357 was placed at the same place

That's one statement I've never understood or agreed with. I believe once you are "big enough" more isn't necessarily better. IMO, identical hits to COM with .357 or .44M are gonna do the deed equally. Take a 100 yard deer and a 30-30, 30-06, 7mm mag, 257 bob, or 243 (all using proper bullets).......A shot to the heart lung area is gonna = dead deer. Some will be DRT, some will run a bit no matter the caliber used. A hit to the gut is gonna lead to a long tracking job and maybe a lost deer no matter of the caliber used. Too me, all of these fit in the "big enough" category. Now apply that to the .357, .45acp. .44 spec, .44 mag even the .38 spec and 9mm...... In 99.9% of the cases I don't think it will matter which the the rounds a BG is hit with. A good hit is a good hit, marginal is marginal and bad is bad. I'm not much of a believer in the differences in the one shot stop stats once you reach the "big enough" category.

Now for .357 vs .45acp.......IMO it's gonna come down to what you like. If you like semi's you're gonna like the .45acp, if you like revolvers you are gonna like the .357. I don't think that BG is gonna care either way.

LK

[JerryB]

Blaine, don't have any pictures for proof just my Sunday school teacher friend and my grandson watch me put a 240 grain Hornady XTP HP over 7 grains of Unique through nine gallon jugs of water. I will get my grandson to try his Sprinfield GI .45 and one of our .357 pistols and see how they do. But not till it warms up.

[Blaine]

Blaine, don't have any pictures for proof just my Sunday school teacher friend and my grandson watch me put a 240 grain Hornady XTP HP over 7 grains of Unique through nine gallon jugs of water. I will get my grandson to try his Sprinfield GI .45 and one of our .357 pistols and see how they do. But not till it warms up.

I believe you......230 grains is an awesome slug........ It's funny, if we were talking about the old orginal 250gr 45 Colt round, no one would doubt it's killing power......

[1894cfan]

Surprisingly, moon clips are easy to use. I had a S&W Model 625 in .45ACP some years ago and used full moon clips in it. In a large Speed Loader case, I could carry 4 full moon clips loaded with 6-rounds of .45ACP ea. That gave me a total 30-rounds at hand (6 in the gun, 24 in the case). Got rid of the gun but sill have the full moon clips (about 200) and a couple full moon clip wrenches.

Moon clips are very fast for reloading.

I've got the same setup in 9MM for my Ruger Speed Six, except for the clip wrenches.

[220swift]

Keep in mind that if it works on a beast, it'll work on a man. However, if it works on a man, it might *not* work on a beast. I agree about the .45 Colt being the historical favorite, but that was a 250gr at @1000 FPS. The .45 ACP is a bit less than that, but not much. Now, an old three screw in .45 Colt loaded heavy would be the cat's meow as far as i'm concerned.

Big and slow is good.....

Big and fast is better!!!

Dan

Oops, off topic...... my bad...... Carry both.....

[horsesoldier03]

Well having a few of both pistols in each caliber!!! My vote is for my .357 mag revolvers (S&W no doubt).

I HATE CHASING BRASS!!!!!!!

[Doc Hudson]

Whats to settle? Two tremendous cartridges.

Nath.

For real Nath!

The .357 magnum is the best defensive cartridge in a revolver and the .45 ACP is the best defensive cartidge for a semi-auto.

Supporters of high velocity, high energy and expansion prefer the .357 magnum and folks who like flatguns, and fat slow bullets stick with the .45 ACP, if they are smart.

All the happy horse manure spread about how a 230 FMJ .45 round will knock a man down 19 times out of 20 is jut that, horse manure.

For a single example, Evan Marshall reported on a gunfight between two men, one armed with an M-1911 and the other armed with a cheap .22 revolver. The gent with the .45 pumped seven 230 gr. FMJ bullets into the body of the other fellow who kept advancing and ended the fight with a single .22 bullet to the head of the .45 user, rendering him DRT. The fellow with the .22 returned to his room, changed his shirt, walked to the bus stop and took a bus to the hospital. He survived.

I've heard a cop in Troy, AL relate the story of how he shot a man six times with .45 ACP Silvertips. The man, armed with a knife, continued to advance on the policeman until the sixth shot hit him in the neck and put him down. The last shot was fired at a range of just over 3 feet, barely out of knife slash range.

I've also met a man who survived being gut shot at close range with a .357 Magnum. He had some of the most impressive scars I've ever seen, but he survived to be a PIA to all and sundry for many years.

The point is, neither cartridge is perfect. You pick your weapon and practice with it until you have confidence in it. Since I don't trust flatguns, that means I'm a .357 Magnum / .44 S&W Special Man.

Let's face it gents. There ain't nothing a .45 ACP 230 bullet can do that a .44 S&W Special .250 gr SWC at 950 fps can't do just as well an in a much more elegant platform.

[Idiot]

Let's say there were only two of us left and we didn't like each other - I sure hope you've got a 45 ACP because I'd have a 357 Magnum. Now all I have to do is stay 50 yards from you and I'd not worry about a thing.

Hey TripleT, this is too easy, of course the 357 Magnum is better and out classes the slow stumply one in every way. Most everyone knows that. Settled.