Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Lets opine in very general terms. In your experience, regardless of firearm used as a test vehicle, what is GENERALLY a more accurate bullet design, the LBT style or the Keith design. I understand there are variations with both designs but lets lump them together for the sake of this discussion. I am interested in your experiences only. Thanks, 1886.
- Sixgun
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 18735
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
- Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Thats quite a question that not even The Man can not answer. I have LBT and Keith moulds for the same calibers but in different configurations and nose styles in the LBT. If I had to choose, I would pick the Keith because...................after playing with Keith moulds and several hundred revolvers over a 35 year period, well, I never could trace an accuracy problem to the Keith. I'm not a big hunter with revolvers so my choices with the LBT are standard designs that approx. Lyman/Saeco/RCBS looks. My 38-40 LBT is a tackdriver but that bullet was designed for the 40 S&W as are several other LBT's I have but in 30 cal and 45 acp. I only played with two of the LBT designs that had that big metplate and these were bullets that were given to me, so......I really can't fairly describe their performance.
The Keith bullets has the full diameter driving band which really helps to center things up. I don't care for that huge metplate (or however its spelled) on the LBT. It may have a slight advantage over the Keith in killing power but the deer I've shot with the Keith all died very nicely. The Keith is a better long range design. (200-500 meters) The LBT in "big metplate" form is just a wadcutter that is rounded off a bit and we all know what wadcutters do after 75 yards or so.
Once I find something that works, its hard for me to permantly change---thats why I try everything else but always go back to the Keith design.
Probably not the answer you were looking for but there's not that many people who have extensive experience with the LBT (except 'ole Veral himself) But you will get lots of people who have played with the Keith
The Keith bullets has the full diameter driving band which really helps to center things up. I don't care for that huge metplate (or however its spelled) on the LBT. It may have a slight advantage over the Keith in killing power but the deer I've shot with the Keith all died very nicely. The Keith is a better long range design. (200-500 meters) The LBT in "big metplate" form is just a wadcutter that is rounded off a bit and we all know what wadcutters do after 75 yards or so.
Once I find something that works, its hard for me to permantly change---thats why I try everything else but always go back to the Keith design.
Probably not the answer you were looking for but there's not that many people who have extensive experience with the LBT (except 'ole Veral himself) But you will get lots of people who have played with the Keith
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
I've shot them both in several guns and I can't answer that question. I think you have to try them in YOUR gun to know how they will do in YOUR gun.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
OK, gonna show my lack of smarts here, but what does "LBT" stand for?
Joe
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32245
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Thanks Joe...J Miller wrote:OK, gonna show my lack of smarts here, but what does "LBT" stand for?
I always like it when someone else asks the question I was wondering. Now I can sit back and pretend I knew all the time...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
-
- Shootist
- Posts: 1682
- Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: BLACK HILLS, DAKOTA TERRITORY
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
"LEAD BULLET TECHNOLOGY"J Miller wrote:OK, gonna show my lack of smarts here, but what does "LBT" stand for?
Joe
IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE KEITH HAS IT ALL OVER THE LBT FOR ACCURACY , PARTICULARLY WHEN WE GO TO LONG RANGE SHOOTING. THE LBT'S CAN DO SOME REALLY SCREWY CURLY-QUES WAY OUT YONDER THAT YOU NEVER SEE WITH A KEITH BULLET.
RIDE, SHOOT STRAIGHT, AND SPEAK THE TRUTH
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Lead Bullet TechnologiesAJMD429 wrote:Thanks Joe...J Miller wrote:OK, gonna show my lack of smarts here, but what does "LBT" stand for?
I always like it when someone else asks the question I was wondering. Now I can sit back and pretend I knew all the time...
Dang it Terry, Someone finally asks a question I know the answer to and you beat me to it.
Ricky
DWWC
DWWC
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20869
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
"Lead Bullet Technology"... edit: oh well... beat like a drum!
I've only compared LBT and Keiths in .45 Colt. But, truly not a real comparison as the Keiths were 250grainers and LBTs were 185s.
Out of the pistol (Colt SAA), @ 25 yards, I couldn't begin to discern a difference. But, outta the rifle (1873 Uberti), the LBTs tumbled something fierce beyond the end of the barrel! The Keith's still cooked along with great accuracy, but in the straight lifter of the toggle link the clattered around and didn't feed well for speed necessary in the CAS game. edit: Terry, curly q's!!!! VERY descriptive!
And Sixgun, it's "Meplat"!
I've only compared LBT and Keiths in .45 Colt. But, truly not a real comparison as the Keiths were 250grainers and LBTs were 185s.
Out of the pistol (Colt SAA), @ 25 yards, I couldn't begin to discern a difference. But, outta the rifle (1873 Uberti), the LBTs tumbled something fierce beyond the end of the barrel! The Keith's still cooked along with great accuracy, but in the straight lifter of the toggle link the clattered around and didn't feed well for speed necessary in the CAS game. edit: Terry, curly q's!!!! VERY descriptive!
And Sixgun, it's "Meplat"!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- sore shoulder
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 2611
- Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:51 pm
- Location: 9000ft in the Rockies
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Terry Murbach wrote:"LEAD BULLET TECHNOLOGY"J Miller wrote:OK, gonna show my lack of smarts here, but what does "LBT" stand for?
Joe
IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE KEITH HAS IT ALL OVER THE LBT FOR ACCURACY , PARTICULARLY WHEN WE GO TO LONG RANGE SHOOTING. THE LBT'S CAN DO SOME REALLY SCREWY CURLY-QUES WAY OUT YONDER THAT YOU NEVER SEE WITH A KEITH BULLET.
I know a certain somewhat well known pistolsmith that said the same thing to me personally once during a visit to his shop.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance." Declaration of Independance, July 4, 1776
11B30
11B30
-
- Levergunner 3.0
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:08 am
- Location: Salmon Creek, SW Washington
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
+1Terry Murbach wrote: IT IS MY OPINION THAT THE KEITH HAS IT ALL OVER THE LBT FOR ACCURACY , PARTICULARLY WHEN WE GO TO LONG RANGE SHOOTING.
I've had much better luck on game like elk with the keith over LBT's also, launched from either rifle OR pistol.
2x22
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Terry, Thanks for the LBT definition. Now since I didn't know what LBT stood for it's obvious I wouldn't recognize one if it fell on my head. Is there a link to someone who sells a selection of LBT bullets so I can familiarize myself with them?
Joe
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- fordwannabe
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3370
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 am
- Location: Womelsdorf PA
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Joe google Lead Bullet technologies and you get to Veral Smiths site and it has a bunch of good stuff in it. I use the blue lube from them and like it very much. Good reading you'll be there awhile I bet! Tom
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Thanks, seems I do have a few of those loaded up that someone gave me.
Joe
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- Buck Elliott
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 2830
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 pm
- Location: Halfway up Sheep Mountain -- Cody, Wyoming
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
FWIW -- The "LBT-style" bullet is essentially a round nose-flatpoint or a truncated round-nose, if that makes more sense to you. Some folks like to call 'em "alphabet bullets" because of the letters used to describe bullet-nose profiles, such as FLN (Long Flat Nose); WFN (Wide Flat nose); LWFN (Long Wide Flat Nose); etc...
It looks like my experience runs just the opposite of the general consensous in this area. With very few exceptions, the LBT-style (particularly in LFN configuration) bullets have been more accurate -- for me -- especially at longer ranges. The WFNs have not proved to me to be as accurate as the LFNs, at extended distances. The WFNs and LWFNs are not normally as accurate as (same weight) Keith-style slugs, at longer yardages. That is where the Keith-designed #358429 amd the #429421 missles seem to outshine the competition. Have not yet discovered a semi-wadcutter .45 Colt or .475 Linebaugh bullet that will run with the same-weight LBT LFN. Factor in the somewhat sticky feeding issues associated with many Keith-style bullets, especially in lever-gun loads, I'm much more comfortable with the LFN design. That squared-off shoulder can even slow up revolver reloading.
All that aside for a moment. The WFN and LWFN bullets deliver tremendous "slap" at defensive distances, which was the reason for their design. Life is full of trade-offs -- that's the reason God made Blondes, Brunettes, and girls that look like Maureen O'Hara...
It looks like my experience runs just the opposite of the general consensous in this area. With very few exceptions, the LBT-style (particularly in LFN configuration) bullets have been more accurate -- for me -- especially at longer ranges. The WFNs have not proved to me to be as accurate as the LFNs, at extended distances. The WFNs and LWFNs are not normally as accurate as (same weight) Keith-style slugs, at longer yardages. That is where the Keith-designed #358429 amd the #429421 missles seem to outshine the competition. Have not yet discovered a semi-wadcutter .45 Colt or .475 Linebaugh bullet that will run with the same-weight LBT LFN. Factor in the somewhat sticky feeding issues associated with many Keith-style bullets, especially in lever-gun loads, I'm much more comfortable with the LFN design. That squared-off shoulder can even slow up revolver reloading.
All that aside for a moment. The WFN and LWFN bullets deliver tremendous "slap" at defensive distances, which was the reason for their design. Life is full of trade-offs -- that's the reason God made Blondes, Brunettes, and girls that look like Maureen O'Hara...
Regards
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
They can be equally accurate, but the LBT bullet sheds velocity rapidly and it needs velocity to remain stable. Back in the day we used to call them "ogival wadcutters" and the problem with all full or nearly full wadcutters is they have "too much" weight up front to remain stable at low velocities. So to maintain accuracy with an LBT bullet you need to start them fast and keep the range short enough to so they don't shed too much velocity and become unstable before hitting their target.
Ross Seyfried was able to achieve a consistent minute of angle group using LBT bullets out of a revolver. That is accurate by anyone's standards. But to achieve this level of accuracy he had to drive them very fast. I can't remember now, but I think he used a stout revolver (might have been with a five-shot cylinder) to get the loads running at full steam to ensure stability out to 100 yards (I'm not sure if he used the LFN or WFN to achieve this feat).
Some LBT designs are more forgiving when it comes to velocity/stability. The LFN (long flat nose) has more weight at the rear of the bullet and doesn't require as much velocity to keep it stable.
With that being said, I wouldn't pass up the LBT designs when shooting them from a levergun. Velocities out of a levergun are substantially higher than a revolver and most of the problem is then solved. And LBT bullets feed like hot butter.
I shoot Keith style bullets, which shoot well at all hunting velocities, in my handguns and if I feel rich I'll load LBT's in my levers.
Ross Seyfried was able to achieve a consistent minute of angle group using LBT bullets out of a revolver. That is accurate by anyone's standards. But to achieve this level of accuracy he had to drive them very fast. I can't remember now, but I think he used a stout revolver (might have been with a five-shot cylinder) to get the loads running at full steam to ensure stability out to 100 yards (I'm not sure if he used the LFN or WFN to achieve this feat).
Some LBT designs are more forgiving when it comes to velocity/stability. The LFN (long flat nose) has more weight at the rear of the bullet and doesn't require as much velocity to keep it stable.
With that being said, I wouldn't pass up the LBT designs when shooting them from a levergun. Velocities out of a levergun are substantially higher than a revolver and most of the problem is then solved. And LBT bullets feed like hot butter.
I shoot Keith style bullets, which shoot well at all hunting velocities, in my handguns and if I feel rich I'll load LBT's in my levers.
- Buck Elliott
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 2830
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 pm
- Location: Halfway up Sheep Mountain -- Cody, Wyoming
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Weight for weight, you'll find that LFN bullets have at least equal or better ballistic coefficients compared to SWCs, meaning that they shed velocity more slowly, not more quickly. I have no accuracy problems with them, from 700 fps on up, in .45 Colts. And in weights of 250 gr. on up through 325 grains. In the .475s, 400-gr to 440-gr. slugs all perform well in the 1000 to 1800 fps range, out to 200 + yards, beyond which big, heavy lever-gun slugs become more-or-less moot.
The Freedom Arms/Lyman mould for their 300-gr (nominal) cast GC bullet is essentially the same as the LBT LFN series, and gives excellent accuracy, from 1400 fps to over 2100 fps. Cast Performance Bullets LBT series have proved their mettle, over and over.
Ross Seyfried's MOA quest was done with a special, Hamilton Bowen 5-shot, seriously-custom revolver. Not every (read almost NO) production or semi-custom gun will give that sort of accuracy -- even ONCE -- let alone on a repeat basis. IIRC, Ross used LFN bullets for his MOA testing. Have lost contact information for Ross, so can't immediately verify all that.
The Freedom Arms/Lyman mould for their 300-gr (nominal) cast GC bullet is essentially the same as the LBT LFN series, and gives excellent accuracy, from 1400 fps to over 2100 fps. Cast Performance Bullets LBT series have proved their mettle, over and over.
Ross Seyfried's MOA quest was done with a special, Hamilton Bowen 5-shot, seriously-custom revolver. Not every (read almost NO) production or semi-custom gun will give that sort of accuracy -- even ONCE -- let alone on a repeat basis. IIRC, Ross used LFN bullets for his MOA testing. Have lost contact information for Ross, so can't immediately verify all that.
Regards
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Buck
Life has a way of making the foreseeable that which never happens, and the unforeseeable, that which your life becomes...
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Thanks for squaring that Buck. I have Ross' article stashed somewhere and didn't have time to find it. The LBT bullet that's touted with being the most lethal is the WFN because of its wide meplat and the most of the LFN bullets have smaller meplats and are akin to a Keith bullet without the square edges.Buck Elliott wrote:Ross Seyfried's MOA quest was done with a special, Hamilton Bowen 5-shot, seriously-custom revolver. Not every (read almost NO) production or semi-custom gun will give that sort of accuracy -- even ONCE -- let alone on a repeat basis. IIRC, Ross used LFN bullets for his MOA testing. Have lost contact information for Ross, so can't immediately verify all that.
I think that is one of the distinctions that must be made when talking about LBT bullets compared to Keith style bullets. The ones that are less stable at low velocities are the WFN bullets, while the LFN bullet is very similar to a Keith style bullet (weight distribution wise as well as frontal size) and should be just as stable as the Keith.
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Try looking over on Graybeards' outdoor forums. Veral has his own section there.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Ive found WFN if driven fast will hold up good to 100 yds give or take from a pistol after 100 the LFN is more accurate I havent shot pistol rounds from a rifle so I cant comment on that aspect. danny
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20869
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Joe,
2 boolits on left. .452 185WFN
1st one on right, same bullet
2 boolits on left. .452 185WFN
1st one on right, same bullet
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Thanks Griff. Now I know what an LBT is.
Joe
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
I've shot several hundred LBT 250-255 cast that made by Lasercast and Beartoothbullets.com, and they did pretty good in my .45 Colt. But, me and my gun like the wide meplat Lee 250 RNFP sized to .452 for 25 yd. paper practice.
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Personal experience with Keith bullets I have, over 30 years worth. I have some with LBT bullets although I did not realize it.
When I lived in AZ I have sat on one hill and shot rocks out to 3 and 4 hundred yards with my 7.5" Ruger BH in .45 Colt using Keith SWCs I cast myself. I found I could hit said rocks easier with the revolver than I could my Win 94 AE. I think it's the sights, but I don't know.
I may have shot some LBT type bullets then but I honestly do not know.
All I know is when shooting the Keith bullets if I did my part, I'd smack the rocks every shot once I got ranged in. Very consistently.
So for what it's worth, that's my story.
Joe
When I lived in AZ I have sat on one hill and shot rocks out to 3 and 4 hundred yards with my 7.5" Ruger BH in .45 Colt using Keith SWCs I cast myself. I found I could hit said rocks easier with the revolver than I could my Win 94 AE. I think it's the sights, but I don't know.
I may have shot some LBT type bullets then but I honestly do not know.
All I know is when shooting the Keith bullets if I did my part, I'd smack the rocks every shot once I got ranged in. Very consistently.
So for what it's worth, that's my story.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- Sixgun
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 18735
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
- Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Griff wrote:Joe,
Wow Griff!,
You must have the brasso company running a separate shift all for your consumption. --------------------------Sixgun
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Sixgun,
Griff has his tumbler belt driven by the drive shaft of his tractor. He loads the brass in when he leaves home and only takes it out 30,000 miles later when he gets home.
Joe
Griff has his tumbler belt driven by the drive shaft of his tractor. He loads the brass in when he leaves home and only takes it out 30,000 miles later when he gets home.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20869
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Nope, just some new brass that I "spiffed up" for that photo op!Sixgun wrote:Wow Griff!,
You must have the brasso company running a separate shift all for your consumption. --------------------------Sixgun
WOW! Now that's a great idea, Joe. Remember, I AM the guy that left my tumbler runnin' for 6 or 7 weeks!J Miller wrote:Sixgun,
Griff has his tumbler belt driven by the drive shaft of his tractor. He loads the brass in when he leaves home and only takes it out 30,000 miles later when he gets home.
Joe
Mostly cause my brass looks like this when it goes in:
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20869
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: Accuracy, LBT vs Keith
Nope, just some new brass that I "spiffed up" for that photo op!Sixgun wrote:Wow Griff!,
You must have the brasso company running a separate shift all for your consumption. --------------------------Sixgun
WOW! Now that's a great idea, Joe. Remember, I AM the guy that left my tumbler runnin' for 6 or 7 weeks!J Miller wrote:Sixgun,
Griff has his tumbler belt driven by the drive shaft of his tractor. He loads the brass in when he leaves home and only takes it out 30,000 miles later when he gets home.
Joe
Mostly cause my brass looks like this when it goes in:
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!