Miroku / Win 1895 405 Win strength

[JFE]

How strong are the new model Win 1895's in 405 Win ? Given that this rifle is chambered in 30/06 and 270 and Hornady produce strong modern brass, is there any reason you cant load a new model 405 Win to similar pressures ?

Hodgdon lists 405 Win load & pressure data on its site, however max pressure is limited to 43-44k psi, presumably limited in case the data is used in early Win 1895's. Assuming 50k pressures in Miroku 1895's are workable, then the 405 could possibly get close to duplicating ballistics of the 450/400.

The factory twist rate is quite fast (1 in 14" I think), which means it could easily handle 400gr 0.411 Woodleighs, making it a pretty potent package with 4+1 capability in a relatively lightweight rifle.

Views ?

Joe

[Leverluver]

I did considerable pressure work with a Miroku M95 albeit in 411 Hawk. Yes the action can take 270/30-06 type pressures but the cases do not like it much. For reasonable case longevity, it is best to keep pressures in the low 50s in KSI. Around 52 to 53KSI did not acelerate case wear much over lower pressure loads. Note that those pressures in KSI ARE the equivalent of those read in KCUP i.e. in the mid 40s. I can tell you that you get very little in performance in that last 7 to 8 KSI if you do go to 60 KSI. In the 405 it will be less than 100fps for a 300 grain bullet. Less than that for a heavier bullet. It really isn't worth pushing it, not if you have to replace casings every third shot or so.

[Pete44ru]

[Assuming 50k pressures in Miroku 1895's are workable, then the 405 could possibly get close to duplicating ballistics of the 450/400.]

Get good medical coverage, for when you need to get your neck & shoulder muscles repaired/healed.

.

[Don McDowell]

How strong are the new model Win 1895's in 405 Win ? Given that this rifle is chambered in 30/06 and 270 and Hornady produce strong modern brass, is there any reason you cant load a new model 405 Win to similar pressures ?

Hodgdon lists 405 Win load & pressure data on its site, however max pressure is limited to 43-44k psi, presumably limited in case the data is used in early Win 1895's. Assuming 50k pressures in Miroku 1895's are workable, then the 405 could possibly get close to duplicating ballistics of the 450/400.

The factory twist rate is quite fast (1 in 14" I think), which means it could easily handle 400gr 0.411 Woodleighs, making it a pretty potent package with 4+1 capability in a relatively lightweight rifle.

Views ?

Joe

The limiting factor is case capacity, and seating for the oal that will cycle thru the magazine. Unless you get really stupid and use powders like 4198 and faster, you'll run out of case capacity before you'll limit out on pressure.
I found that using powders 4895 and slower it's quite possible to hit velocities with the 300 gr bullet crowding 2400 fps pretty hard. In a 8lb rifle your shoulder and head will give out in short order.
I've not shot any jacketed bullets over 300 grs, but have spent a good bit of time with cast bullets from 350-400 grs.
The 405 works just fine the way it is, I can't think of anything its not capable of handling working within the pressure limits and velocities published by hogdons.

[86er]

It is fairly common to lengthen the chamber on the .405 caliber in order to use 400 grain bullets. These can be pushed to 2150 fps safely - which is duplicating the 450-400 N.E. cartridge. This later cartridge is toted as the perfect african buffalo round and is more than adequate for all the big animals including elephant. I don't know the pressure created by using 400gr rounds in the 405 but I know the "power" will be right up there with the best and it takes the 300 gr 2050 fps standard load into a whole new category. CRS may comment - he just did this to his 1895 in 405.

[Don McDowell]

You can lenghthen the chamber to hell and back, but unless you lenghthen the magazine (can't be done) you still can't gain any appreciable case capacity. You may get a bit of extra lenghth in a #1 or highwall or other single shot, but the case capacity still can't be escaped.

[crs]

Please consider my comments as those of a person new to the Winchester 1895 who has done a lot of research, learned a great deal, but with only a couple of years of actual shooting and reloading experience:
1. My research agrees entirely with the comments by Leverluver.

2. Per 86er comments, which my research also confirmed -
I have had excellent accuracy and hunting results with North Fork 300 grain bullets loaded to 2250 fps with N133.
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=204

The chamber of my .405 is now being throated to properly crimp at the cannelure the Woodleigh and Hornady 400 grain softpoint and solids.The rifle is due back to me very soon, but due to my move to the "house in the country", all my reloading stuff is in boxes, so it may be a while before I can report to this forum on the performance of the throating with my handloads.
There are published load data showing the Woodleigh 400 grain, .411 bullets being used at velocities in the 2100+ fps range with the throating and in the 2050 fps range (the advertised velocity of the factory Hornady 400 grain .450-400 ammo) without throating. This is readily available to anyone that can use Google, but for any serious inquiries, I can provide direction.

3. WRT Don's comments. Don is a very experienced rifleman with the 1895 in .405 and I agree with him that the 300 grain bullets are very effective. However, if he wants the magazine lengthened, I can direct him to a gunsmith that has done it and to one or more folks that have said that they have it done with good results. Also, I can cycle 400 grain Hornady bullets in my 1895 OK so long as I short load the magazine by one cartridge. I learned this from a person that hunted with 400 grain Woodleighs with the factory magazine before he had his magazine enlarged.

4. JFE - your assumptions are spot on. The 1895 in .405 has been used quite successfully on dangerous game with 300 and 400 grain bullets and if used properly is reported to be an excellent levergun for those purposes. With bullets from 200 - 400 grains, it is indeed a very interesting rifle to own, shoot, and load for.

Gotta go now to do some more packing.

[Don McDowell]

Good point on the short loading of the magazine. Due to the taper of the front end of the magazine you can get away with a bit over the saami spec length. Howsomever that's only for a couple of rounds, when you try and go past that you'll end up with a very nasty magazine bindup, and guaranteed from experience you don't want that.
I have to seriously question the actual real world affectiveness difference in the 400 gr bullet ballistics as noted by hogdons, and any "gain" that may be experienced by some rather spendy jurymandoring on the magazine and throat.

Quite frankly if a 405 loaded as per recommended by Hogdons and tweaked for an individual rifle won't take care of the situation, might of been best to stay home in the first place.
But If one thinks a 40 cal lever gun of more horse power is needed I'ld think the next best stop would be a blr redone to 416 taylor, or remington.

[Kansas Ed]

Me personally, having used the .405 for over 15 years...I just can't see the need for larger than the 300 gr pill. But then that's just me I guess....There is surely a point of diminishing returns there. When we look at penetration data for some of the older cartridges which were done by Winchester at the time, slower velocities had the effect of deeper penetration than faster ones, given the same caliber using hunting bullets. Which leads me to believe that if you aren't getting the penetration you desire with the 300 gr slug you could slow it down a little and see what comes out of it. Original penetration data for the 300gr .405 and the 300gr .40-72 both with soft point bullets had the average of 3/4" more penetration using the 40-72 at 800fps SLOWER than the .405. I would imagine that somewhere in between the 40-72's 1400fps and the 405's 2200fps would provide the optimal penetration with jacketed bullets.

Ed

[Leverluver]

Note also that the Hogdon data for the 400 is loaded to a length that WILL NOT fit in M95 that has not been altered and I don't mean just throating. Even if you can get the OAL out to 3.3", it is still going to take 60+ KSI

[Don McDowell]

Mike the 3.23 Hogdons lists for the 400 woodleighs is the same length I load the Northfork 300 ss's to. There's no room for error and if one of those bullets jumped the case a bit a follow up shot is going to be hand fed... I still think that there isn't a critter going that would know whether it was a 450/400 at 2100 or a 405 with a 400 gr bullet that shot it.
I also load the 300 pointy Hornady's to that same length but with the fatter ogive on that bullet it does engrave the rifling.
Paper patching the BACO .400 350 gr bullet has given some promising accuracy, but I've not tried to drive those at high speed either.

[Leverluver]

The 400 at 3.23 won't work in the bottom of my magazine. And it won't wprk for sure without throating, even at "normal' OAL. As far as pressures;

Fact: At 3.25" the 411 Hawk took every bit of 60K to reach 2100+fps with 400gr (from a 25" bolt gun)
Fact: At that same 3.25" OAL the 411 H has 5% more powder capacity that the 405 Win.
Ain't no math to do.

Don

The 405 test barrel is ready to go but I keep getting stuck on other projects. In fact, on the 450-400 right now.

I also plan to play with PP. I bought that mold that made those 413-330s I sent you. At 20 to 1, that should make a doosie of a paper patched hunting load at around 2000fps.

[Don McDowell]

Mike when you want to try the paper patch thing let me know I'll send you up this mold block. I'm thinking something harder than 20-1 is probably best.

There's a new kid cast bullet on the block also. BACO is offering a 300 gr fn gc number , Dick Savage has been experimenting with it and getting some wowzerwoo accuracy . I've got a handful of them he sent me, but haven't had time to lube,check load and shoot just yet.

[Leverluver]

Might need to go to 30-1 but I like more "splat" than most folks. The jello will tell the tail. Also still need to find out how far I can go wtih 5744 and keep pressure reasonable. I need to keep them moving right along or my sights won't work. They won't regulate with pffft---ting loads. May get a #21 some day but not right now.

[Don McDowell]

Lyman says you can go to 38.5 grs with the 412263 cast from #2 and stay at 40K psi. Kicks like a bay mule.......

[Leverluver]

They are both called "300s" but yours is ~285 and mine is 330+. It will interesting to see the difference in pressure with same load.

[Don McDowell]

I shot that bullet of yours at Ekalaka with 28 grs of 5744 and it held up well to the 250 yd target. I think it would probably also make a very good hunting bullet if a person could get it ramped up without depositing alot of lead in the barrel.
This bullet BACO is building molds for ought to be the Hammer of Thor type smacker. Dick is going to be using it on Black Hills whitetail here shortly. Should know more in a few weeks.

[JFE]

Thanks for the responses. An acquaintance of mine has a nice Belgian double in 405 and that rifle only regulates when he has 300 grs doing 200 fps over Hornady factory loads. He reckons this rifle drops our big deer in their tracks. He uses Woodleigh 300gr bullets designed for the 405.

Regarding the magazine mods for the 405 that were mentioned, does anyone have a pic of how the rifles look or a link to a site where this is discussed. Presumably the modified magzines look similar to those on early 1895's ?

Also interested in exeriences of using cast pills in a 405 and what moulds are used in the 350-400gr range. Don, can you tell us more about your results with PP in the 405?

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe I haven't done any real serious set down and shoot groups with these paper patched bullets. I can however tell you that when patched to .410 and using 23 grs of 5744 they will keep my 270 yd gong ringing with some regularity. I did try some at 800 yds, but about the time we got the sights set a patch blew and the leading that followed really mucked things up.
I've shot the lyman snover 400 gr bulles cast from some pretty hard homemade alloy to 800 yds with reasonable success, but those are pretty hard for hunting and I've not tried to drive them at highspeed either. The rcbs 350 and 400 CSA bullets cast from wheelweights have given some decent accuracy. but there again I was more interested in holding the velocity to 15-1700 fps or less.

[SubDoc]

Roger Ferrell in Arkansas has done this chamber throating/magazine mod on more than 1 rifle that has been to Africa. He lengthens the chamber/throat so Woodleigh 400 grainers will function giving 3 in the mag and one in the tube. Northfork 330s go 4 down and one in the tube.

The 400's go out at 2000 FPS plus giving 450/400 levels of performance.

[shawn_c992001]

Would the throat need to be lenghtened for a 400gr in an Encore barrel?

[crs]

JFE,
PM sent with several links for your reading pleasure.

[JFE]

crs - a lot of useful info in those links you sent me. Thanks for that.

Joe