Rifle Mag No 247 .356 Win Article...

[O.S.O.K.]

Last night while laying in bed, I read an article in Rifle Magazing (Nov. 2009) by John Haviland. It was weird.

He puts the caliber down, doesn't provide complete component availability information but says he'd been wanting a .356 Win for many years.... weird.

Now I don't expect an all-inclusive listing of bullet makers, but he should have mentioned Hawk Bullets which makes flat nosed .358" bullets of several weights and with different jacket thicknesses.

He states "The Speer 180-grain flatpoint is an okay bullet in the .356, but such a lightweight bullet makes the .356 little, if any, better than a .30-30." What? Really? A 180 grain .358" bullet of good construction traveling 2500-2600 fps isn't any better than a .308" 170 grain bullet of similar construction traveling 2100 fps? I don't think John has used this bullet on any game....

He also states that the bullet wound looked no different than a .243 Win 100 grain would produce when describing a buck that he'd shot with the Winchester 94 - using 220 grain Speers at 2329 fps muzzle velocity. Really?

He also acted like it was a big deal that the buck didn't drop on the spot and ran 40 yards after the heart/lung shot that he took. Funny, that's what happens with my deer when I shoot them in the H/L with any caliber that I've tried - including 45-70.

Futher, he complains about the weight of the rifle/scope combo being 8 pounds... he shot the buck at 70 yards - stalking during the day. So take the 2x7 Nikon off and put a good aperture sight on it...

Anyway, I just thought it was a strange article and didn't really do the .356 Win justice, even though at the end he states that he'll be keeping his .356 (it's a first-run Winchester 94 AE - with the monte carlo stock).

I have no argument with the rest of the article about the unpopularity of the round, etc., but the above drove me to distraction while reading through the article...

[Hobie]

He doesn't mention the Speer 220 gr FP either. That bullet was MADE for the .356 and .358 Win. It struck me as a "meet the deadline" or "pay the bills" effort. IOW it seemed a half-hearted effort.

BTW, that issue is already in the "aging rack". 3 years from now I'll get it out when the Nov 2012 issue comes and review it for good articles to clip. Can't see needing the scissors now though.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yeah, it wasn't very well thought through - almost a rambling regurgitation of thoughts without regard to how they worked together...

But he did mention the 220 Speer - that's what he shot the buck with and he lists the same load that I like: 49 grains of W748 for 2329 fps - almost exactly the same as my Marlin with 20" barrel gives.

But he acts like that bullet isn't really the optimum for the caliber...? Like I said.... weird.

[C. Cash]

And the conspiracy against a fine cartridge/rifle continues. I'm glad they wrote something about it though. The only thing I had seen in recent times is Craig Boddington featuring it in some of his bear rifle articles, and pronouncing a fine choice. Have seen little else.

[tman]

a .356wcf 220gr. at 2300fps should handle all north american game out to 200yards. at close range, in which dangerous game should be shot, this should handle THE GREAT BEARS, that gun writers reserve only to the 416 rem mag as MINIMUAL. THAT'S WHY I QUIT BUYING THE GUN RAGS YEARS AGO !

[Hobie]

Yeah, it wasn't very well thought through - almost a rambling regurgitation of thoughts without regard to how they worked together...

But he did mention the 220 Speer - that's what he shot the buck with and he lists the same load that I like: 49 grains of W748 for 2329 fps - almost exactly the same as my Marlin with 20" barrel gives.

But he acts like that bullet isn't really the optimum for the caliber...? Like I said.... weird.

I don't know how I missed that, maybe I was asleep...

[O.S.O.K.]

Its called CRS and I have it too. Especially when I've been reading a lot of different stuff - they get mixed up or details fall away.

[TedH]

the same load that I like: 49 grains of W748 for 2329 fps - almost exactly the same as my Marlin with 20" barrel gives.

49 grains? Really? The Winchester data I've got lists a max of 42.1 grains with the 220 Speer. I never tried it because it looked kind of whimpy at 42 grains. If I can go to 49 gr. it may be worth another look.

[BenT]

I thought the same about the article . It was nice to see but wasn't very imformative. The statement about the 180gr being compared to a 30-30 is ridiculous. Also the fact that it was 8lb has no merit , the reason for a levergun is the handiness. I'll take an 8lb levergun over a 8lb bolt any day. It was a mixed bag , he didn't say much positive, yet he's not going to get rid of the gun. ?

[O.S.O.K.]

the same load that I like: 49 grains of W748 for 2329 fps - almost exactly the same as my Marlin with 20" barrel gives.

49 grains? Really? The Winchester data I've got lists a max of 42.1 grains with the 220 Speer. I never tried it because it looked kind of whimpy at 42 grains. If I can go to 49 gr. it may be worth another look.

That's gotta be the starting load Ted. My Speer Manual #12 lists 49.5 grains W748 as maximum in the 356 for the 220 Speer.

I would suggest Varget and RL-15 as well if you want top velocities.

[20cows]

I gotta finish putting that big bore puzzle in 356 together! I want to shoot a 220 gr cast, but it's a challenge to find the mould.

[j23]

Seems as if ol' John has fallen victim to the gun rag writer's disease... if they arent financially supporting your rag, pretend the company doesnt exist... hense his lack of mention for Hawk Bullets, or the availability of any cast bullets or molds available, and he cant use an aperture sight... Nikon is paying his rag too much for him to mount a scope.

Aside from a few small, locally based magazines, or perhaps Fur, Fish and Game.. I wont even open a gun magazine anymore... to much "new and exciting!" articles of what you should buy instead of quality instruction or the passing of experience and knowledge.

Case in point... I observed a special edition of one of the larger magazines whose name excapes me at this point, however the special edition was labled, "Levergun Legacy" (!!!)... excited, I opened her up to see the first article... where the writer mounted an electrical holosight contraption onto a levergun. I put the mag back on the rack and continued my shopping.

Sad indeed. I miss the days of Brister, Wooters and Keith. These new writers are nothing more than salesman, save perhaps Mike Venturino... and one writer/good article doesnt justify five dollars. Ill just wait for him to write another book.

[O.S.O.K.]

The Levergun Legacy is a special edition of Rifle mag - and you might have kept reading. Its a good one IMHO.

Overall, I really like Rifle, Handloader and Sucessful Hunter mags. The reason that I highlighted this particular article is that its not the norm for them and really stuck out like a sore thumb in the mag...

However, I too noticed that there was no Hawk Bullet ad in the mag - used to be... hmmm. Dave Scovill even colaborated with them to offer several wildcats on the 30-06 case (I'm oversimplifying, but that's the basic deal) and chambered them in Browning 95's. So, to see them not mentioned as a good source of .358" flatnosed bullets was odd....

[O.S.O.K.]

I gotta finish putting that big bore puzzle in 356 together! I want to shoot a 220 gr cast, but it's a challenge to find the mould.

I just got through working up a hunting load using the Saeco 250 grain gc flat nosed boolit - cast of wheel weights with a little tin, Lee liq alox lube sized .359" in a lee sizer die - 2000 fps and 2", 100 yard accuracy. Going to be my primary hunting rifle this fall.

Here's my Marlin 336 - .356 Win (rechambered used 35 Rem):

[Marc]

The 356 with the Saeco 250 grain at 2100 fps will kill little deer. This one was shot at 260 yards:

[BigMuddy]

Glad I am not the only one that thought this was a "weird" article that was lacking a lot.

I bought the magazine for that article in particular as it is unusual to find anything on the .356.

[C. Cash]

Can't wait for the range report 20 Cows. I've got a 356 Win. barrel that I am thinking about putting on my current 444 win. big bore. The 356 and a good cast bullet is where it's at.

Looks good Marc!

[20cows]

Saeco 245 gr or RCBS 250 gr?

[Ranch Dog]

Using the extended range of my 336ER. Texas desert mule deer at 225-yards with 200 grain Winchester PPs.

[william iorg]

I am pleased to see someone address his load data. I don’t have a problem with the listed W-748 load in the 356 Model 94 Big Bore rifle.
For those who might remember his 300 Savage article there was load data listed which does exceeded the maximum loads listed in current load books – at least all that I’ve looked in. There are several different strength levels in rifles chambered for the 300 Savage cartridge and I believe he should have addressed this in his article.

A point worth mentioning is his selection of cast bullets for the 356 Winchester. Anyone who has used cast bullets in the 356 or 358 Winchester cartridges or who has searched the web for recommendations of cast bullets for the cartridges could not help but notice the universal positive reviews of the RCBS 200-grain gas check bullet when used in the 356 and 358 Winchester cartridges. In the Winchester Big Bore rifles the RCBS bullet fits the throat and may be driven at full speed with little regard for leading and delivers fine accuracy – I shoot this bullet un-sized and hand-lubed in my rifles.

While the 220-grain Speer bullet may work well on heavy bodied critters my experience with our light framed West Texas deer and pigs is this bullet is too stoutly constructed. My experience has been the 220-grain Speer bullet is just beginning to expand as it exits our deer. Following the wound channel on broadside and cross body shots has left no doubt in my mind about this.
The 220-grain Speer bullet is quite accurate in my rifle and I do enjoy shooting it.

I have not experienced a problem shooting the Sierra, Hornady or Remington 200-grain round nose bullets in my rifles. I have never experienced a problem feeding the bullets through the tubular magazines when using full power loads. These bullets have a pretty soft lead core and a rather blunt profile. The three 200-grain bullets open up quickly on our typical deer – a big mature buck in my area will weigh 140-pounds on the hoof with most weighing a bit lighter. The 200-grain bullets open up quickly at 356 Winchester speeds yet retain their weight well and penetrate deeply. The 200-grain bullets disrupt a lot of tissue and yet do not leave a trail of lead fragments along the wound channel and I have experienced very few occurrences of the bullets shedding their jackets. The Remington 200-grain bullet is my first choice as it is tough, accurate and economical. The Sierra and Hornady bullets work well too.

While I am happy to read an article on the 356 Winchester I believe there are several regular posters on the Leverguns, Beartooth and Marlin Owners forums who could have written a more informative article with the benefit of far more experience both shooting the cartridge on the range and hunting with it. That is a long sentence but I’ll leave it alone. I predict it will be a very long time before we see an article in one of the mainstream gun magazines written by an enthusiastic amateur such as ourselves.

[Sixgun]

The gunrags are in the same path as the dinosaur. They keep getting smaller and less informative. I just got my latest "Gun Digest" and they might as well send me a post card----------Sixgun

[C. Cash]

Slim....you're alive! Great to see your comments on this.

Sixgun...that's pretty much nails it for me too. An occassional Handloader or Backwoodsman is about all that I will pick up anymore.
Edit: Chuck's right...Muzzleblast too. Very much look forward to it each month, and it is a magazine that sticks to traditional muzzleloader and early American History.

[kaschi]

Most writers, not all, are simply just that, writers. Blowhards who elevate themselves to make themselves look and sound good. I have a cousin who writes for a publication, the name of which I won't mention. He comes out with some of the most outrageous lies that I actually have called him and said that he should start writing fairy tales.

[Ranch Dog]

....there are several regular posters on the Leverguns, Beartooth and Marlin Owners forums who could have written a more informative article with the benefit of far more experience both shooting the cartridge on the range and hunting with it.

Might be a long sentence but it is right on target.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I guess I`m just not so hard to please, I subscribe to about a dozen different magazines including ones that come with a club membership such as Fouling Shot,
Muzzle Blasts, Single Shot Rifle Journal, American Rifleman, and Rifle, Rifle Shooter, Handloader, Precission shooting, The American Gunsmith. Also others that are not as good but cost little like Guns and Ammo and
Shooting Times.
Sometimes sorting past all the black gun/ 1911 articles to get to an article that deserves reading is more than a body can stand. Mike V. is currently my favorite writer.

[Ranch Dog]

I guess I`m just not so hard to please, I subscribe to about a dozen different magazines including ones that come with a club membership such as Fouling Shot,
Muzzle Blasts, Single Shot Rifle Journal, American Rifleman, and Rifle, Rifle Shooter, Handloader, Precission shooting, The American Gunsmith. Also others that are not as good but cost little like Guns and Ammo and
Shooting Times.
Sometimes sorting past all the black gun/ 1911 articles to get to an article that deserves reading is more than a body can stand. Mike V. is currently my favorite writer.

I hear what you are saying Chuck, it is kind of tough balancing the notebook computer on the toilet! The black gun thing gets old and they really lost me less than a decade ago when all the new short magnum stuff started. I'll never forget, I walked into a gun shop and the owner had a twenty something caliber pushed back cartridge of a short magnum which he shoved into my face and asked "what you think about that" (knowing I'm a fat, long lever guy). I said real loud that if "anybody showed up to hunt deer on my ranch with a cartridge like that, they would have to pack up and go home." Gun rags, its always the latest and greatest which causes me to yawn.

Mike V. is my favorite writer.

[afish4570]

I too love my 356 AE 94 in 356Winchester. Been shooting the the 200 gr. Rem Rn chroned at 2330fps. Two bucks fell after running 20 or 30 ft. after being hit, one was at 35 yrds. and the other100ish. The cast 200grfp RCBS mold makes for an accurate combo. Have used 2520 Accurate powder and 3031 both chron 1900 +fps. Haven't hunted successfully with cast loads but it is accurate and potent enough. The 356 should have made it but bad press and H V hype killed it IMHO.....They are accurate too.afish4570

[FWiedner]

I have both a Model 94AE in .356Win and a 336ER and I've been spending a lot of time with them lately. Both of them are outstanding firearms.