Levergun vs. Pumpgun- Muscle memory the same or not?

[pullnshoot25]

I am having a debate with my friend at the moment over leverguns and pump guns and I am of the opinion that the muscle memory and training for both types is nearly identical. This is coming from reading police training briefs and actually owning each of type of these weapons.

My colleague is of the opinion that they are not similar and anyone that says otherwise is a laughing stock. His experience has come from shooting both of these systems but not really looking onto either one.

What say you, levergunners? I know this sounds like a dumb argument but I must know!

[fordwannabe]

I would think they are exactly backwards from one another. One you push the lever away from you and the other you pull the slide toward you, both on the first action. Tom

[Buck Elliott]

NOT THE SAME...

In shooting a lever-action, the shooting hand/arm runs the show. When shooting a slide-action, the "off" hand runs the slide, while the shooting hand just runs the trigger.

Try "jacking the slide" on a levergun, or flicking the lever on a pump...

[mikld]

If I understand correctly, you're asking about muscle memory and training. I know the movements are different, but I'd say there is no different in learning/training. But then, one (the pump) is operated with the off/weak hand/arm while the other (lever) is operated by the strong hand/arm. Also the pump uses both hands to operate and fire the rifle and the lever uses the same hand for both cycling and firing. Maybe Doc can give an anatomical (sp?) opinion?

[Griff]

I agree....

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Oh, you wanted an opinion. The method for learning muscle memory is the same... but the actual mechanics of the actions are very different. Not to say that you can't learn both simultaneously, but, if you ever confuse the two, saomething is going to go wrong.

[TX Gun Runner]

This one needs no trigger pulling , this works on most lever gun ... Some pumps will slam fire like my 97 Winc pump shot gun ..

[Nath]

Found both come natural my self!

Nath.

[madman4570]

Dont know much about the Muscle Memory but my Brain Memory loves em both and are used to both very well!

[Sixgun]

Having used both for CAS and regular plinking on a regular basis, I must say that after getting used to one or the other, I have to "retrain" myself in order to be quick again. This sometimes takes several hundred rounds.

The hardest is relearning the Lightning. I will short stroke it and have been known to make a "butt" out of myself.----------Sixgun

[Hobie]

I think that if you shoot either/both enough it doesn't matter. A TRAINED person immediately operates them correctly when he picks them up.

[wm]

Well......I hunt birds with a pump (Remington 870) and I hunt most everything else with a lever action (Marlin 336) and I can honestly say that while I am a big believer in the muscle memory theroy (I coach baseball and this ties into proper hitting and pitching as well as fielding) I have never become confused or felt hindered going back and forth.

And for the most part I believe that if you can't make your first shot count when you have the element of surprise on your side, then the chances of hitting a spooked animal as it takes off at full speed in the other direction is pretty much slim and none.

Wm

[wm]

After rereading your original post I wonder if you and your colleague are talking about the same thing......could one of you be thinking about safe handling & accurate shooting while the other is speaking about snap shooting under stress?

Wm

[Bruce Scott]

I think this is what you may be getting at:
Lever - forward movement of the lever also involves pulling back on the forend with the other hand.
Pump - pulling back the slide involves pushing forward with the other hand at the grip.

Of course I know absolutely nothing about muscle memory so chances are that I am completely bamboozled ....

[buckeyeshooter]

I shoot levers most often, then bolts. I very rarely shoot a pump either rifle or shotgun. So, levers are much quicker for me.

[Old Savage]

I shoot all three and it doesn't seem any problem in that nothing from any interferes with doing the others.

[Chuck 100 yd]

It would be a bummer to get buck fever and try to pump your Win. 94!!! Hope nobody is looking!

[Lefty Dude]

I shoot both, and you use different hands to operate each. Strong hand for the lever, and off hand for the pump.

[jkbrea]

I think that if you shoot either/both enough it doesn't matter. A TRAINED person immediately operates them correctly when he picks them up.

I agree. Of course it's not the same movements but if you train enough with it you'll automatically operate what weapon you have correctly. I remember shooting an elk and tracking it a short distance. When I approachd it, I levered in a new round only to see a live round eject. I didn't remember levering it after the first shot. Same with bolt guns and shotguns I would think.

[adirondakjack]

Sure, a trained person falls into whichever mode is needed (otherwise CAS types using lever rifles and pump shotguns wouldn't be top hands, and they often are) but the training is different to be sure.

From an anatomical standpoint the pump is more complex because for most of us the lever is simpler. When shooting a levergun, the right EYE sees the target and tells the brain when to signal the muscles. This process sends signals from the right eye to the left brain onward to the left motor cortex, back to the right hand, not a bad loop, as it only crosses the main switchboard (corpus collosum) once. With a pump, ya start with the same eye talking to hand, but the right eye sees, the signal goes to the left visual cortex, then to the right motor cortex, then to the left hand, then to the left motor cortex signalling the brain the gun is in battery, and to the right hand to trip the shot. The circuit pathways are much longer and convoluted, so yes, it HAS TO take more time, if only microseconds in a trained individual. Any stutter with the slide will get the two hands "out of synch" as the trained shooter anticipates lockup and trips the shot accordingly, not waiting for the brain to confirm the slide is locked, and ya get an unintentional slam fire. How many of us see just that with CAS shooters with 97s, who slam fire and shoot right over the target as they are "out of synch" with the two hands (sorta like when ya type fast and transpose letters, the left hand suddenly getting ahead of the right, or vice versa.... With a levergun, it's more like operating a calculator fast, punching the numbers only with the dominant hand......

[moxgrove]

I did an experiment once. I used both a pump shotgun and an o/u to shoot clays, alternating which I used. I would sometimes instinctively try to pump the o/u or forget to pump for my second shot when not thinking about. However when using one or the other exclusively it has never been an issue.