Stopping rifles - 86er

[Old Savage]

In another post you raised the subject of stopping rifles for the PH. Where do they begin? Most commonly used?

[86er]

If you want to hedge your bets on stopping something as small as a black buffalo (1200-1500 pounds) to a Rogue Bull Hippo (6000-7000 pounds) or an elephant (10,500 - 14,000 pounds) you need a bullet that will at least turn the animal or knock it off balance if you miss the all too important brain shot. The brain shot should be taken at very close range, measured in feet - not yards. If you just want to stop something from getting away, that is another thing altogether. To stop something from coming another couple of FEET you use a 500NE, 577 or 600NE. Most people can't handle these - I can barely handle the 500NE and won't shoot the other two. If you (or the PH) "play it safe" and shoot animals from afar they will never experience a charge and don't have to try to stop anything. Think about this: "Assassinate - to kill secretively, murder premeditatedly and treacherously. Usually the victim does not know the assailant is present and the harm to the victim is inflicted in such a way as to cause certain death." Is this not what shooting a hippo in the water as he comes up for air, with a brain shot, is? Hunted properly on land, hippos will nearly always charge because of the territorial nature and lack of predators. Look at buffalo: Most PH's don't want any risk. They have the client shoot the buffalo from a distance and, wounded or not, if the buffalo runs they wait 1/2 hour or more. Meanwhile, what if the bull is suffering? Why not follow up right now and finish what you started? You need to be appropriately armed and willing to take a risk. There is dignity in letting the animal decide if it will make it's last stand or try to run away. In either case, you (as the PH) and the Hunter finish the job. You need to be able to at least sidetrack a large, angered animal with the calliber and rifle you are using. To use any other rifle than a double rifle under these circumstances (as the PH) would be irresponsible. The clients job is to use as much gun as he/she can shoot accurately and under pressure. I have no issues with the client using a scoped bolt gun as it facilitates the best first shot. On the other hand, I enjoy hunting with a client that can use a double rifle or levergun to get two quick shots into an animal in spite of how good or bad the first shot is. To answer the question again - 500NE starts to be able to STOP dangerous game. If you are intentionally using it as such, it should be a double rifle. If you take this to N.A. and are talking bears, you can probably drop the requirement to any of the 45 caliber and up cartridges shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2100 fps or so. The biggest bears will be 1200 pounds max, and they are soft/thin skinned.

[madman4570]

Makes good sense to me!

[mod71alaska]

Very interesting post, Joe. Thanks. I know my shoulder would be in the next county if I shot any of those PH calibers!

The biggest bears will be 1200 pounds max, and they are soft/thin skinned.

FYI, an old Alaska Kodiak Brown Bear boar will go 1500-1800 pounds.

[86er]

I know the biggest bears have been quoted as being 1500-1800 pounds, but I have never found documentary evidence that a bear from the wild was weighed whole. In a zoo setting that weight is possible but in the wild I have my personal doubts.

[morgan in nm]

Fascinating 86er. You sound like a gunsmith I once knew, Leonard Bull. He thought it was unsporting to shoot anything without giving it a chance to hurt you.

[86er]

Obviously plains game and such are naturally programmed to flee upon the slightest confrontation. That includes un-wounded bears for the most part - if they have had any contact with humans. Buffalo will most often run as well since they have been pursued by lions for years. However, "dangerous game" is only dangerous if you give it a chance to act naturally under the right circumstances. I have no problem taking deer from a blind, etc. I also do not shun the guys who want to shoot their Big 6 that way. In fact using bait to hunt leopard is sometimes the only way if the Country does not allow the use of dogs. I draw the line personally at shooting one at night with a light. Lions too. But in the big picture, either shooting the Big 6 when they are disadvantaged, or not confronting them when wounded is just killing - not dangerous game hunting. You don't need much of a "stopping rifle" if you are going to play it safe all the time. No wonder dozens of PH's that I talk to have never been charged - even by Hippo - in years of hunting and hundreds of animals.

[Old Savage]

Interesting once again - I would have guessed it would have been the .458 Win Mag.


But - not much in this is obvious to me. I have had no contact with this world personally.

[buckeyeshooter]

I would think a 458wm would be a stopper. It generally is thought of as such by other pros.

[mod71alaska]

I know the biggest bears have been quoted as being 1500-1800 pounds, but I have never found documentary evidence that a bear from the wild was weighed whole. In a zoo setting that weight is possible but in the wild I have my personal doubts.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but since you brought up the weight of big bears, Joe, I've taken trophy moose in Alaska weighing 800+ pounds and have seen bears that were huge...I mean REALLY HUGE...in comparison that make an 800 lb. moose look really small. Anyway, I thought this information I just Googled might add some clarification and some fun, interesting information about the magnificent Kodiak bears.

http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/akpage ... n_bear.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bear

http://www.exzooberance.com/virtual%20z ... 20bear.htm

http://www.bearplanet.org/kodiakbear.shtml

http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cf ... ars.trivia

[madman4570]

My gosh that one bear looks like king kong size
http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/akpage ... n_bear.htm
How would you like to be in the bush and have that thing coming at you through the cover 50ft away at 30mph
If that dont make that 45-70 seem kinda punny then you got game pal! I might wet my pants and yell I GIVE/I dont wanna play no more

Actually 13K for that hunt aint too bad!

[Andrew]

Actually 13K for that hunt aint too bad!

Compared to what, a new car?

[madman4570]

Got it right there! And compared to going to actual Africa and hunting with Joe and the gang maybe that 13K to just hunt in the states is kind of steep!

[piller]

I really have to stop saying this, but, I learn something almost every time I log in here.

[Bang]

I have been looking at a merkel M88 PH model in .375 or larger. But I will need to shoot one before i commit.

I used my Win M70 in .375H&H last year a perfect shoulder/heart shot and frankly the second shot wasn't needed - the buff went down to its knees with very very long 10 seconds. It didn't see me.
Next buff was front on in scrub and a front on chest shot ( the .375 -300gr woodleigh did not exit ) it saw me and still managed a good 20 ft before being dropped. The PH I used had his double .470NE up and was ready to fire when I fired a second shot, I honestly can't remember cycling the action for the second shot or loading a 3rd.

I tried a .416 Rigby in a Ruger Safari and it stove piped on the second shot. If you have a safari ruger try cycling live rounds at all load speeds ( don't find out on a paid hunt it needs work to cycle the FASTEST you can move that bolt ). The .416 was an ugly thing to shoot and I sold it as soon as I got back to Melbourne.
But shoot something you can handle well rather than a monster calibre that you can't make that follow up shot. The PH was using a .375H&H double this hunt.
The person I hunt with has taken most game with his .338Win Mag - but he has just put $12K down on a Chapui .375 flanged double for next year's hunt.

I must find my favourite video of a hunter NOT hitting a lion at close range.!!

[Chris Troskie]

I'm chiming in a little late with my response as I've only just seen this thread but here goes...

The best charge stopper there is is something called "shot placement" I.e. if the first shot is placed well chances of a charge are reduced. For this reason we try to get as close as possible to DG and give the client the best possible chance on a killing shot. But whilst we can control (to a certain extent) how close we get to an animal we can't control the way the client shoots so charges can and do happen and when it does you want a projectile that is big enough and can penetrate deep enough to (even if it doesn't hit the exact spot) kill or at least stun the animal / turn it away from you.

The .458 LOTT is a very popular in Africa as is the .416's (both), and .470NE. A couple of PH's I know have bigger calibres (.500, .505 Gibbs etc.) which they use for back-up on dangerous game. There are differing opinions as to whether a bolt action or double is better suited under these circumstances. I would love to have a double (maybe someday) but up to now my bolt action rifles have worked for me and I haven't had anyone killed yet

[rjohns94]

Chris, welcome to the forum.
I appreciate your experience and points of view on this.

[Chris Troskie]

You are welcome Mike!

I used to post quite regularly on the old site (jeepers - the new site has been up for a while but I just never got round to re-registering and contributing by means of posts!). Have to say I'm happy to be back!

Levergunners have a very special place in my heart... The '06 levergun safari was the first group hunt I booked after exiting from a hunting partnership and founding my own Outfit. In the process I did not only book clients but also made great new friends AND this was the start of a 4 year old friendship with the Levergun Community which is something I will for always treasure!

[rjohns94]

Well, I'm personally looking forward to meeting you in the hunting venue on your turf in the next year or so. blessings.

[tman]

i'll never get to africa, but if i did, i'll take a 1895 src 30-06 for plains game, and a 1886 src in 45-70 for the big stuff. if i get stomped to death for using a too light stopping rifle,it'll be my fault and not the p.h.'s

[mod71alaska]

I'm chiming in a little late with my response as I've only just seen this thread but here goes...

The best charge stopper there is is something called "shot placement" I.e. if the first shot is placed well chances of a charge are reduced. For this reason we try to get as close as possible to DG and give the client the best possible chance on a killing shot. But whilst we can control (to a certain extent) how close we get to an animal we can't control the way the client shoots so charges can and do happen and when it does you want a projectile that is big enough and can penetrate deep enough to (even if it doesn't hit the exact spot) kill or at least stun the animal / turn it away from you.

The .458 LOTT is a very popular in Africa as is the .416's (both), and .470NE. A couple of PH's I know have bigger calibres (.500, .505 Gibbs etc.) which they use for back-up on dangerous game. There are differing opinions as to whether a bolt action or double is better suited under these circumstances. I would love to have a double (maybe someday) but up to now my bolt action rifles have worked for me and I haven't had anyone killed yet

Chris, what model bolt action rifle do you use as a PH and in what caliber?