Shooting the SAA clones

[azmark]

While I understand that SAA clones can be fairly accurate, is it hard to find a load that shoots to point of aim? Are these guns set up from the factory to shoot to POA with the 'standard' .45 colt loads, like the original military version? I love the look and the history of these, but what fun would it be to not be able to hit what you aim at?

[Griff]

I don't think so. But... then I filed and bent the front sight on my Colt SAA so it would shoot my load to point of aim. The 'smith that rebuilt it after the 1st ¼ million rounds reshaped and reset it so it shot to POA with a factory contour.

My clones all sport bent and filed sights.

[J Miller]

While I understand that SAA clones can be fairly accurate, is it hard to find a load that shoots to point of aim? Are these guns set up from the factory to shoot to POA with the 'standard' .45 colt loads, like the original military version? I love the look and the history of these, but what fun would it be to not be able to hit what you aim at?

I can speak only for the one I have. It's the third one of that vintage and model I've owned. None of them shot to the sights with standard factory ammo or equivalent hand loads. Each and ever one of them shot way high.
My first one got sold before I could get the sight fixed.
The second one I soldered an extension on the sight.
The current one Steve Young put a taller front sight on for me when he put IJ back in action.
Finding accurate loads though seems to be a breeze. I've shot Remington 250gr factory ammo out of it and several of my own hand loads and all of them have been accurate. Some more than others, but accurate.

I've heard and read that the newer ones come with taller sights, but I've not had one to mess with so I can't say for sure.


Joe

[Buck Elliott]

Why some fellers insist on bending their sights is a mystery to me... Most 'windage' problems can be cured quite effectively by turning the barrel a VERY small amount. Since they mostly shoot to the left (from the factories...) a simple matter of turning the barrel a skoshe into the receiver will cure the matter.

In my recent experience most of the Colts & clones I've encountered seem to shoot a tad above the POA, making "filing" a moot option.

Have seen any number of Colts, clones and even Ruger Vaqueros with cracked silver-solder/braze joints at the front sight -- from being 'tweaked' unless I completely miss my guess. A friend's 4 5/8" Vaquero was carelessly dropped on a carpeted wood floor from about waist height and came up missing its front sight...

[Modoc ED]

Heck, half the fun of getting a new gun in proper condition is adjusting the sights. It'd be a bore to pick up a new gun that shot exactly to point of aim -- convenient but boring.

[Mutt]

The ones that were stolen both hit POA . All since then don't . Except the last one ,Cimarron . It came ready to shoot. .45 Colt 255 gr hand load by a good friend at a very fair price. The other four are Colts and all but one , hit some where else. The 5 1/2 isn't bad. I bought it used The four are 3rd gen. The ones stolen were also 3rd gen, but bought in the 70's . These are from the 80's and 90's .
I've thought many times to send them to some one that can do the job needed but just don't trust the mail or other shipping any longer
Seems a shame to spend that kind of cash and then need to find a smith to make it shoot where want . I also have a Kimber ultra , .45 right out of the box 15 yrds 1st shot , bulls eye . Colt doesn't seem too concerned as per phone call . Was told they were mostly for collecting. .................Mutt

[Leverluver]

I have 4 Uberti SAA clones in 44 Sp and 45 Colt and every one of them was pretty much dead on windage but shot way low. It was an easy fix to file the sight to bring them in. That's a lot better than my USFA Rodeo. With any bullet weight, it shoots way high and way to the left with the heavier bullet the worse it gets. Really ticks me off and it is very accurate but nowhere near POA. I can see where the factory filed the rear notch all the way to the right and even turned the barrel some so there is nothing left for windage and the sight is too short to work anywaay. When I cool down, I'm either going to put a shallow dovetail for a front or solder on a base that can take a dovetail. Talking to others, mine is a rarity but that doens't make me feel any better. The big surprises were those goofy OTs. Both my RM and Type II will bust walnuts at 25 yds right out of the box. The silly things just have no right being that accurate and dead on to POA also.

[rangerider7]

Do like me, keep the good ones I have and don't get anymore.

P.S. At last count I have 16 SAs.

[marlinman93]

Never seen a SAA Colt, (or clone) that would hit POA until you worked up the right load for them. Every one of them I've owned or shot was pretty close, but surely not dead on.

[20cows]

My Uberti shoots right on for my load, but there was a bit of work done to figure out what "my load' was supposed to be.

[Old Savage]

Dead on first time - now what was the load?



you have to find the load for the gun - not, doesn't shoot my load.

[Modoc ED]

What ever happened to "Hold Off"? You know, you buy a gun and it shoots 2" high and 2" left so instead of doing all the filing, barrel turning, sight bending, you just learn to "Hold Off" 2" low and 2" right to hit what you're shooting at. Heck, unless shooting pinp-pong balls, I wouldn't even bother to "Hold Off" if using a gun that was only off by 2".

[Old Savage]

With you on that Ed.

[J Miller]

Guns shooting to loads, or finding the load for the gun was mentioned above. Well, I've simplified that situation.
Each caliber has a traditional load.
45 Colt: 255gr at 860 fps
44 Spcl: 246gr at 7?? fps
44 Mag: 240gr at 12??
You get the idea.

So when I test fire any single action I use either factory ammo or a factory equivalent load.
If the guns will not shoot that load to the sights it has to be fixed. This goes for fixed or adjustable sight guns.

Since I stick with the factory weight or heavier bullets I've found this method to work very well for me.
If I were to get a gun that I intended to shoot a totally different type of load, then I'd work on it with that load.

What ever load my guns use, the sights must be on.

Joe

[hondo1892]

My USFA Rodeo shoots low with all my hand loads so far and ultramax factory rounds. They all were with 255 gr and 260 gr swc loads. Windage is good maybe a little to the left. I was affraid it would shoot high when I bought it. It has a 4-3/4" barrel, the last Ruger I had with adjustable sights shot high with the rear sight all the way down. I think its pretty much a stuff shoot.

[Travis Morgan]

My Vaqueros shoot to POA and make little bitty cloverleafs. (well, as little bitty as you can, with a .45!)

[Lastmohecken]

My first 5.5 inch Armi-San Marcus clone, has always shot right to point of aim. But I just recently purchased a Uberti 4.75 inch Cattleman which is a beautiful gun, and has a wonderful action, but seems to shoot a couple of inches to the right and maybe slightly low, but I have only shot it a little bit with one factory load. I am going to work up some factory equivlant handloads and mess with it a while, before making any changes. I know the tricks to get it on target, but I hate to alter it if I don't have to.

I have heard that a lot of peacemaker shoot slightly left, so the barrel could be tightened, slightly, but since mine seems to be shooting to the right I would have to loosen mine, slightly, which is probably just as eaisly done, but filing the groove in the back would probably work also, on this one, but I would hate to touch it with a file. I going to shoot it throughly first, to be absolutely sure.

I am left handed, which might be making it shoot to the right, maybe I will let someone else shoot it, and see if they shoot to the right with it also.

I don't think I will bend the front sight, as that is a pretty easy way to end up with a broken sight.

[Lastmohecken]

Do like me, keep the good ones I have and don't get anymore.

P.S. At last count I have 16 SAs.

Actually, that plan has worked for me pretty good in the past on other guns. Keep the ones that work 100% and shoot like you want, trade the rest. Unfortunatly, once in a while I have traded off a good one, and wished I hadn't of later.

[Pete44ru]

[What ever happened to "Hold Off"?]

It looks to me that nowadays, many gun owners/shooters seem to think that their hunting/fighting tools ought to be capable of fufilling the role of a target piece, too.

.

[Travis Morgan]

They should, within reason.

[Griff]

What ever happened to "Hold Off"?

It looks to me that nowadays, many gun owners/shooters seem to think that their hunting/fighting tools ought to be capable of fufilling the role of a target piece, too.

I think they should, and being fixed sighted you have to "hold-off" for all OTHER distances and with any loads but that one. Since I use mine to predominately compete in CAS; I actually have two loads that shoot to the same POA, one smokeless, one BP. I also have two other smokeless loads that shoot to the same POA, albeit, a farther distance than my CAS loads.

It's all in knowing your gun.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

One cannot have a discussion of guns hitting point of aim unless one specifies the distance.

Obviously, when gravity starts to take over, the bullet begins to drop. The farther away the target is, the more time there is for the bullet to drop, so the lower it will hit. So to talk about a gun hitting point of aim, one must state the distance to the target. Point of impact will be different at 15 yards than it is at 50 yards.

Fixed sights on revolvers are purposely made high for two reasons. The first is to force the line of the bore down, to make up for the tendancy of the muzzle to flip up in recoil. When recoil begins lifting the muzzle up, the bullet usually has not exited the bore yet, so the front sight is made extra tall to force the line of the bore down, to help makeup for muzzle flip. The second reason is that it is simpler to remove metal by filing down a front sight than it is to add metal if the sight is too short. Also, the Colt Single Action Army was originally regulated to hit point of aim at a pretty good distance. I can't put my hands on the information right now, but I seem to recall that the tall front sight would allow the point of impact to be the same as the point of aim out around 200 yards. If I can find the correct information I will post it. But that is part of the reason for that great, big, tall front sight. Also, don't forget that most bullets exit a gun travelling slightly up. The point of impact actually crosses the line of sight of the sights at two places, one on the way up, and then again on the way down.

And with all due respect, I dissagree with the statement about most revolvers shooting to the left. Shooting to the left is usually caused by improper trigger technique. Too much finger on the trigger by a righty usually pushes the muzzle over to the left. Put the same gun in a Ransom rest and shooting to the left usually goes away. I also agree that bending the front sight is a risky way to correct windage. Turning the barrel in or out slightly is the correct way to do it, but it is easy to spring the frame when doing this, and it should usually be left to a gunsmith who has the proper tools to torque the frame without bending it.

[Leverdude]

A tall front sight wouldn't give you greater range. If as you say they were meant to be on at 200 yards I think most folks would find the front sight woefully short for 20 - 50 yard work.

I think its made tall so you can file it down if needed. The real issue is one of windage anyway I think. Lucky for me my only fixed sight single action hits centered as long as I do my part ok. I do agree about hitting left because of poor trigger finger position. Every revolver I own will hit low left if I dont pay attention to my trigger finger. Cant say why but its not an issue with autos.

[azmark]

Didn't I mention distance? For practical purposes, let's say about 30 yards, because that's how far from my house to where the mesquites start in front and about the distance to the far end of the barn in the back

Plus, most of my target shooting is at 25 meters. That's about 27 yards, I think.

[Buck Elliott]

"HOLD OFF...???"

That would be like driving a car that only goes 'sorta' where you steer it...

Because I have and shoot more than one gun, I want them all to shoot right where they look, without trying to remember how much to "hold off..."

I can take care of elevation easily enough, and I don't expect pinpoint 500 yard accuracy from my sixguns anyway.

[Lastmohecken]

Howdy

Fixed sights on revolvers are purposely made high for two reasons. The first is to force the line of the bore down, to make up for the tendancy of the muzzle to flip up in recoil. When recoil begins lifting the muzzle up, the bullet usually has not exited the bore yet, so the front sight is made extra tall to force the line of the bore down, to help makeup for muzzle flip. The second reason is that it is simpler to remove metal by filing down a front sight than it is to add metal if the sight is too short. Also, the Colt Single Action Army was originally regulated to hit point of aim at a pretty good distance. I can't put my hands on the information right now, but I seem to recall that the tall front sight would allow the point of impact to be the same as the point of aim out around 200 yards. If I can find the correct information I will post it. But that is part of the reason for that great, big, tall front sight. Also, don't forget that most bullets exit a gun travelling slightly up. The point of impact actually crosses the line of sight of the sights at two places, one on the way up, and then again on the way down.

And with all due respect, I dissagree with the statement about most revolvers shooting to the left. Shooting to the left is usually caused by improper trigger technique. Too much finger on the trigger by a righty usually pushes the muzzle over to the left. Put the same gun in a Ransom rest and shooting to the left usually goes away. I also agree that bending the front sight is a risky way to correct windage. Turning the barrel in or out slightly is the correct way to do it, but it is easy to spring the frame when doing this, and it should usually be left to a gunsmith who has the proper tools to torque the frame without bending it.

Actually, the front sight on Peacemakers usually comes tall, because, that is geometry required to make the gun shoot resonably close to point of aim, somewhere around 25yds or so, but occasionally the sight might need to be filed down a touch, depending on the individual gun. It's looks tall because if you look at the side view of a Peacemaker, you will notice that the frame where that hog wallow of a sight groove is, is located somewhat higher then the top of the barrel and since there is no ramp on the barrel, like a Ruger Super Black Hawk or even a Single Six, one has to make the sight blade itself taller.

Normally the Peacemaker does not shoot 3 ft high at the closer ranges, like many of the old cap and ball Colts did. The old cap and ball colts shot high because they practically had no front sight at all, It was very short. Some of those old cap and ball colts might have actually been regulated to cross the point of aim, the second time, way out there past Fort Muldge as Jeff Cooper would say.

However, one can do some pretty good extreme long range shooting with a handgun with a tall front sight, by holding the top of the blade above the rear sight, and still using the top of the front sight to aim off of. This is the way Elmer Keith did it, when shooting at long range, and if you know your gun or can get on target by spotting the dust or water kicked up by your shot, you can get a good feel for how much front sight to hold up at extreme long range and do some really amazing work at times.

[Travis Morgan]

"HOLD OFF...???"

That would be like driving a car that only goes 'sorta' where you steer it...

I've had a few of those!

[Lastmohecken]

Also, I think some people seem to shoot left with the old Peacemakers, because if you take a look at where the trigger is located on a Peacemaker, you will see it's positioned off center, to the left side of the gun, so it doesn't take much extra pressure to pull off to the left, espacally if you are right handed.

[flb]

Just got home from the range little while ago with my Cimaron Thunderer .45, shooting 230 gr lead on top of 7.5 grs Unique. 25 yds it shoots a little low but good groups considering my ole eyes. I plan on trying several more loads then settling on one that is within pressure limits and just stick to that. Will pack it in the woods cause I like the CCI shot shells too. this is one smooth action. P.S. the wife, all 5'2" and 103lbs can outshoot me with the Thunderer and she just loves shootin it. Hate to admit that but she is one fine pistol shot.

[Timothy]

We ask our sixguns to do more today than anyone ever did in the SAA's heyday. We now know the guns capability but before Elmer Keith few did. While some SAA's will hit poa at 50 yards a blackhawk would be a much more apropriate platform for that task. So rather than try to force the old warbird into todays shooting feats I try to use it in a manor more consistant with its history. How come you never hear varmit hunters complain about the stock sites on an 1873 trapdoor springfield?

[the telegraphist]

I shoot two SAA clones made by Pietta. One a Great Western two in 45 colt 5.5 inch barrel, it was very good on windage with most loads, but had to do a fair bit of load experimentation to get the elevation spot on at 20 yards, settled on a 250g RNFP from Westcastings backed by 8.5g Unique. Very happy with this outfit. The other is a 44/40 5.5 inch again windage was fine played with loads for POA at 20 yards 7.5 to 8.0 of Unique came in trumps with Westcastings 200g RNFP. I dont like shooting the weak CAS loads, they just dont seem to make it in the accurracy stakes. Will be looking for another Pietta shortly in 38/40. May even lash out and get a Colt.