OT - Need to fill a niche - only you can help

[rjohns94]

Was talking with my brother and I am working out how to fill a niche in my shooting. Here is the problem. I have been downsizing to bare mins on all of my shooting needs. Now bare mins means different things to different people. For me it looks something like this:

Black Powder: .54 custom rifle for BP flintlock season, and .75 smooth bore for "fowling" purpses and general shooting.

Shotguns: One side by side in 12 ga for hunting, one Semi/pump (Bennelli M3) for protection

.22lr : One lever gun from before the turn of the century, a K-17 for target/hunting, a walther PP for plinking and a casull 5 shot mouse gun

38/357: '92 lever gun, and model 60 3" for CCW

.44: S&W 29 3" ported for bear country carry

.475 Linebaugh - hunting - ANYTHING

.45-70 : original '86 and original trapdoor '73 - hunting



I think I have down sized myself out of a critical niche. I don't have a centerfire pistol/revolver where its fun to go shoot a couple hundred rounds at the range with. I need your help to rectify this.


I would love for it to be in .38/.357 caliber as I crank out those rounds by the hundreds each week. My model 60 really is not a fun gun to shoot with .357 loads all day. I see the options in that caliber as:
Colt SAA
Colt double action
Ruger single action
Freedom Arms single action
Smith Double action K frame
Coonan Semi-auto
Grisley Semi-auto
Ruger double action
(then there are the other double acting producers like rossi, taurus, etc)

My brother suggests maybe I need to expand calibers to like .30 carbine and get a military carbine and an automag. Or perhaps get .357 sig, or 9mm or 100 mm or .40 cal or reclaim my .45acp. Pure purpose of this is only to shoot a center fire handgun, down range, a lot, when I go to the range. Single actions get a little tiresome but have their own charm and shootability that must be factored in. Double actions have their merits but they kinda loose something in the looks category. Semis are cool and have higher capacity (except some of the higher capacity wheel guns.

so my question to you is ...... what the heck do I need?????????? OH, and I am a real visual learner so PICTURES or links are VERY ENCOURAGED.

[crs]

Mike;
IMHO, your .357 revolver can be anything that you prefer and that you shoot well - same for the lever .357 and this forum the best place for the rifle part of the question.
I happen to have been hooked on S&W handguns and Winchester rifles as a teenager and have just never shot anything else as well. There are many wonderful wheelguns out there and just shopping for "the one" should be fun fot you. This is my solution for the last 40 years:

Have fun shopping and remember to test fire as many "suspects" as possible.

[rjohns94]

I agree that the .357/.38 is the way to go and thats why I'm kinda settled in on it. My problem is the CCW is not real comfortable to shoot a lot of round through. thats why I was thinking maybe a larger pistol just to have fun with, not to use as a CCW is needed. I like the caliber, think I got rid of the TRRP Smith too quick. Darn it!!! They aren't making them anymore either!!

[Pete44ru]

My $0.02: If ya wanna have fun, get a .32 gun !

.

[Rusty]

Can't go wrong with a vintage S&W M28 or M27 depending on how much you want to spend. A 4" M28 or a 5" M27 would be my choice.

[alnitak]

Mike, I think you summarized our conversation quite well, so I won't be too redundant. I love my Ruger Vaqueros when shooting .38/.357 and the .44 Blackhawk, however, as you said, SAA gets a little tiring shooting a couple hundred rounds (loading plus cocking). You no longer have any hi-cap rifles or pistols (you got rid of your AR-15, AR-10, GRS, etc.), nor do you have any hi-cap pistols. I think for "fun" shooting of a couple hundred rounds, you need to fill that hole in your arsenal again. Whether it's .223, .30 cal, .22lr, 9mm or whatever ... nothing like have a 30-rnd mag (or 15 to 20-rnd in pistol) to shoot up, then pop another in and keep going. Maybe one of the Marlin camp carbines in 9mm or .45 to go along with a semi-auto pistol. I know you love the 1911 platform ... maybe an opportunity to fill that niche again.

[Buffboy]

I'll go a little off the beaten path here and recommend a Monson, Mass. manufactured, clean, used, 357 15-2 Dan Wesson revolver. Fantastic selection of grips, barrels/shrouds, and front sights. Easy changing of any of the above to suit your need of the moment, accurate, and strong enough for an all 357 diet for near forever but not as heavy to tote as the N frame Smiths. To top it off, they usually go for a good price used.

[Tycer]

Smith 4" Model 19
Ruger Speed/Security Six

To tease Buffboy:

[rjohns94]

Tycer, loved my model 19 but for shooting lots of rounds, I think they have problems. Your thoughts??

I also think that speed six was an awesome platform. I like the military versions, if I could find one in 4 inch and stainlesss, that might be the way go!

Buffboy - the Wessons are nice, I didn't mean to purposely leave them off the short list above.

Rusty - I was thinking of another double acting Smith, I hold them in high esteem

Alnitak - I hear you BRO.

Pete44 - I have never owned a .32 though I was sorely tempted many times. That would add ANOTHER caliber to the list - I just can't handle the stress. LOL

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Smith M52 in 38 Special? Crazy ... isn't it. And no, I don't own one. Still, it's an auto-loader.

[JerryB]

SMITH & WESSON MODEL 15 FOUR INCH, that is the most perfect .38 there is, factory smooth as silk.Any one you can find now would be worth the money.

[Andrew]

I hear a lot of good things about the Ruger DA wheelguns, though I do not own one. I do own a Ruger SA that is a lot of fun shooting even for extended time. Of course a lot of that is subjective too. Good luck with your search.

[lever-4-life]

If you were going to keep it with the calibers in witch you allready have, I would go with a D/A .357. Most likely a 4" or 6" stainless GP100. If you were willing to ad one more caliber I would think a nice 1911.

[rjohns94]

i had forgotten about the 52's hmmmm expensive but hmmmmm

[madman4570]

SS 6" Ruger GP100
For the bucks an awesome accurate shooter(built like a tank)other than that a Glock 17(when you want to take out your frustrations on that bad man shilouette) no not the .475 we want to have the shilouette not destoyed

Oh ya,got to have gun: a Kel-tec P3AT(7ozs) yes 7ozs,with 7 rounds 38Auto.use the Corbons too. Oh baby
Put in your shirt pocket.(this is the gun thats an ALWAYS gun)
Just go look at one and pick it up!!!!!!!!!! I dare ya
It also fits in that tiny little front pocket where you would put a pocket watch.Keltec makes a a belt clip also for it so it looks like you only are carrying a pocket knife!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

i had forgotten about the 52's hmmmm expensive but hmmmmm

Yeah, it might be viable. You'd have to be careful though. If I recall correctly, the 52-2 was tuned for wadcutters versus the 52 and 52-1. I haven't looked at them in a while though so I could be totally wrong. And worse, I have no practical experience with them. There was a point about a decade ago where I was interested in them and was doing some research.

Most were built as target pistols I believe ... so accurracy is probably reasonable at least.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

You know, if the 38 Special is ok, then there was a Colt 1911 made in 38 Special. I was sitting next to a guy at our last gun show and he had brought one to the show (NIB) to sell. He was asking $950. As we were talking, I was sure he meant 38 Super and not 38 Special. But when he showed it to me, it was really 38 Special. Due to my advancing age, I can't recall the model. Seems like it was a National Match or some such but not a Gold Cup. Someone here may know what it was, but I'm guessing it was a tad rare. Although, possibly no more so than a Coonan.

[O.S.O.K.]

For your 38/.357 need, I'd go with a Ruger flattop - one of the anniversary models if you can find it. And maybe a good ol Smith m66 too = hard to beat that one.

[Old Savage]

4" 19 S&W

[Tycer]

I've read several times that the problem with 19s was with the full house light bullets. My 19s are not cracked and I feed them only 158 grain or heavier bullets except for tons of 148 grain wadcutters at target velocities.

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums


by Butch Kent

Photography by Butch Kent

April 18th, 2006






To say the least, I am very fond of my Smith & Wesson Model 19 and am interested in prolonging its life a much as possible while still being able to use it as intended. So it was with some concern that I read reports that others had experienced a terrible disaster with their Model 19s: a cracked barrel throat. I had heard such stories in the past, but there were never any basis for them, just rumor. I needed to find out for myself from people who had the facts.

Over the past several months I have been in pursuit of hard facts that I hoped would put to an end, at least for me, the question of whether or not a full time diet of magnum loads would lead to premature failure of the K-Frame magnum revolvers. I have learned quite a lot and have had the good fortune to have had input from numerous sources including police officers, gunsmiths, shooting sports professionals, sportsmen, and hunters. The results of this review are discussed in the following paragraphs.

Was I convinced that the claims of failures were Old Wives Tales? No.

Was I convinced that one should sparingly use magnum loads in the K-Frame? No…and Yes.

Will I change the way I use my Model 19? … No.

But… you should read the rest of the article and judge for yourself.

When the K-Frame magnum was developed it was intended to provide a lighter weight revolver for the .357 magnum cartridge. As such, it is somewhat of a compromise between the N-Frame revolver, the Model 27 and earlier .38 Special revolvers. In the beginning, most ammunition was lead 158-grain high-velocity as offered by most manufacturers. There is a good deal of information that points to the almost indefinite life of the revolver with reasonable care and a diet of 158-grain lead bullet magnum ammunition.

As gun enthusiast know, well enough is never left alone, and the inevitable urge for more power, higher velocity, and explosive terminal ballistics resulted in development of a number of jacketed bullets from 110 to 160 grains. These jacketed bullets could be driven to higher and higher velocities. Based on the “numbers”, they far out-performed their swaged or cast counterparts. Thus, the first magnum cartridge evolved rapidly. When introduced, the K-frame revolvers, due to their many desirable characteristics, became one of the most popular handguns on the market and sales far exceeded Smith and Wesson’s expectations.

As a young handgunner, my own load development efforts pushed the limits of the K-Frame capabilities. Without sophisticated monitoring equipment, I carefully approached each load increasing powder charges in small (0.1 grain) increments. Cautiously changing primers and even cases to detect any indications of excessive pressure. Primers were my key pressure indicator. As pressure increased the primer would begin to flatten out around the primer pocket and then start to flow back into the firing pin hole. Minute changes in powder charge could be seen to significantly increase chamber pressure, sometimes almost exponentially. On a rare occasion, a minor load change would result in cases sticking in the chamber. THAT’S DANGEROUS! S&Ws have great chambers and are not prone to resisting case removal. When a cartridge case sticks, it is a sign of excessive pressure and significant backing away should begin immediately. There are those who do not heed the signs and end up with seriously damaged firearms and possibly injuries.

Back to the question at hand: what should you shoot in your model 19? From my discussions, review, and the first hand accounts of many experts in the firearms industry, it is clear that in the design of the K-Frame revolver some compromises were made. These changes were made to create an easy to carry, powerful, accurate, and absolutely most beautiful handgun ever made. The changes also may have introduced some generic weaknesses. Most firearms have some generic design weaknesses. One of the weaknesses in the K-Frame is in the cut on the bottom of the barrel throat, in the forcing cone area, to accommodate the cylinder swing. In the attached photo you can see the flat region on the bottom of the barrel throat.

I’ve been told that when the Model 19-5 was issued, the production process changed related to the barrel installation in the frame. Barrels were compression, “crush-fit”, into the frame. Compression force could introduce stress and potential latent flaws in the barrel throat.

Cylinders long enough to accommodate full charge 158 grain bullets provide a great deal of free space when shorter bullets are used. A very popular loading for the .357 magnum was for the 125 grain jacketed bullet. In the early days, this was a great combination with high velocities and excellent terminal performance. Today’s bullet designs offer equal or better performance from heavier weight bullets and over a broader range of velocities. The bearing surface length of the 125 grain bullet is shorter than the bearing surface of the 158 grain bullet. This difference means that as the 125 grain bullet leaves the case there is a gap between the leading edge of the bullet sealing surface and the cylinder throat. As the short bullet makes this jump, combustion gases and powder are permitted to blow past the bullet and prematurely escape into the barrel. The 158 grain bullet essentially seals off the cylinder as it leaves the case and enters the cylinder throat. More complete combustion of the powder is accomplished. Temperatures of the gas as it enters the barrel are lower and the combustion environment in the barrel is not oxygen rich as is the case for the prematurely escaping combustion gas. Checking the dimensions of my 19-3 confirms that for the 158 grain HP bullet, the leading edge of the bullet is engaging the lands as the base of the bullet has just left the case mouth and is flush with the cylinder throat. For the lighter HP bullets of 115 to 125 grains, there is a gap of approximately 0.15 to 0.12 inch, respectively.

The problem with the gap of the shorter bullet is that it permits excessive hot burning gases to escape past the bullet into barrel throat. This superheats the surface of the barrel throat with the hot gas plasma. Still unburned powder blasts away at the barrel throat surfaces and the repeated impact of the high velocity bullets on the lower surface of the throat region result in erosion of the throat in this area. One might question why the impact and erosion is predominantly at the six o’clock position. Recoil. Longer bullets are guided by the cylinder throat and thus are not impacting the lower barrel throat as with shorter bullets. The shorter bullets have a longer “jump” from the case mouth to the barrel lands and thus pick up more velocity prior to engaging the rifling. This causes a greater impact force on the rifling contact area. Another detrimental effect is the flame cutting of the frame as these super hot gases escape from the cylinder-barrel gap. This problem would be present for short bullets in all models of firearms.

Based upon reports of those who have seen examples of throat cracks, several characteristics appear common. First, erosion at the six o’clock position in the throat is almost always present. Most describe this as “peening”. Second, the weapons have generally not been thoroughly cleaned after use. Deposit of lead and bullet fouling are present in the throat erosion region. These deposits can create conditions for chemical stress corrosion and initiation of microscopic cracks in the steel. Third, most of the weapons have other signs of excessive use and wear, possibly from overly hot loads. Very small to large cracks can form at this particular point, the six o’clock position, in the barrel throat. The impact force of the bullet on the rifling would increase the probability of a problem in this region.

Actual reported data collected during this review is summarized in the table below.

Model Number of Guns Observed Crack Y/N 158 grain Rounds Fired 125 grain Rounds Fired
19-5 3 Y 100s 1000s
19-7 3 Y 1,500-2,500 100-500
19-4 2 Y 2,500-5,000 1000
19-4 1 Y 5,000-10,000 (lead only) 0
19-4 2 N 5,000+ <500-1,000
19-3 1 Y ? 2,500
19-? 2 Y <500 150
It should be noted that a lot of weapons never see very heavy use. Initially, I would put 50 to 100 rounds per week through mine. This was during the period of load and skill development. After that, I probably only shot 250 to 300 rounds per year for the next 3 to 4 years. Once I had acquired several additional firearms to occupy my mind and time, my 19 became more of a hunting tool. Currently, I probably fire about 50 to 100 rounds per year. I conservatively estimate that my Model 19 has seen a total of 3000 to 4000 rounds. Today it is as tight and bright as it was the day it was unwrapped.

There are some other interesting tidbits of information gathered during this review. This phenomena is not limited to Model 19 revolvers, although S&W stainless medium frame models may be more resistant to crack initiation. On rare occasion, cracks have been reported with fewer than 150 rounds of the 125 grain magnum loads fired. A few reports of cracks have been made with only 158 grain loads used. One report was received of a Colt Python that cracked with the first box of 158 grain magnum shells. Also, I have even heard of an example where a new unfired revolver was purchased with a crack in the barrel from manufacturing. Even the best quality control is not perfect.

Notwithstanding my own observations, anecdotal data indicates that this crack failure occurs only rarely. Most people will never see such cracks in a lifetime of shooting. That’s why there is talk about the cracking phenomena without much first hand information. Some shooters fire many thousands of rounds per year. While they may eventually wear their guns out to the point of requiring parts replacement, they may never see the cracking. This has been the case with many of the people contacted during this review. Others significantly reduce the life of their weapons by what the feed it and how they care for it. Occasionally a defect will show up and prematurely fail the weapon.

What’s the bottom line? Smith and Wesson stands behind their products and when a rare failure occurs, they make it right. That doesn’t mean that one should stretch the limits of their weapons and ask them to do what they were not intended to do.

My Model 19-3 has been a great weapon and hunting partner for over 30 years. Maybe the production processes of the earlier models like mine give them some added resistance to the cracking issue. I will continue to shoot reasonable magnum loads in it with the full belief and confidence that it will outlast me. I take care of my Model 19 as one should for any good weapon.

I hope this discussion will help put this issue in perspective. Also by providing some factual information, though limited in numbers of examples, we may provide some insight into the causes of such failures. Finally, understanding the strengths and limitations of the very best magnum revolver, the Smith and Wesson Model 19, will enhance all of our shooting enjoyment and help preserve examples of this fine firearm for generations to come.

Butch Kent

[RKrodle]

I have no picture but I like giving my opinon . S&W Mod 10. 38's or +p's. A hoot to shoot and you can do it all day long and then some. If you need a visual let me know and I'll dig out my camera and take a pic.

[bogus bill]

In all the above, I agree, and cant add much different. Anyway, here go,s. You definetly are weak in the belt gun area. Your first choice should be a good 4" (3" to 5") .357. I wouldnt screw with anything but a smith or colt. The K frames have rumors about the throats cracking, but I wouldnt let that stop me for a secound. First of all it is rare, and secound you should, or will be shooting mostly .38 and be carrying .357 when you arent just practicing or plinking. S&W in models 19, 66, 27 or 28. Colts in the old troopers and python if you get lucky. My personal top choice is the overlooked .44 special. In fact I belive if I had just one choice in belt guns, it would be (and I do have one) a S&W 24-3 in 4". It would even replace your 29. (Have one of them too).
I also see a gap in your rifles. You need a accuarte flat shooter. Something like a .243 win up to a .270 or maybe a 7mm. It really should be a scoped bolt. Others will tell you a .223 EBR but I aint into them either.
We all have our tastes.

[hocbj23]

x2 on the Model 10 Smith,with a 6 inch barrel and Pachmyer grips.Tack drivers.bj

[2ndovc]

My favorite fun gun is my Ruger Blackhawk convertible 45ACP/45Colt. With ultra light ACPs all the way up to the
heavy 45 Colt Bear killers it's a blast and i find myself paciking it more and more.

Another Sixgun that I think has been over looked is an L frame 586 or 686. I have K frames and love them. Have had a
half dozen N frame 27s and keep selling them. Super accurate but if I'm going to carry something that big it's
going to be a .44 or .45! But the L frame was made specificallly for Magnums!

jb

[Streetstar]

Well, since you mentioned the 357, and you also mentioned some other rather spendy manufacturers you wre considering ---- i will throw something like this in the fire as a suggestion (Python, 8" bbl, late 70's mfr.)
Its so big, its basically a range toy (or a darn good home defense "hand cannon" - even though i hate the term hand cannon)

Being a Colt -- it will not depreciate unless you leave it in the bottom of a saltwater fish tank for 3 months. .38 specials feel like .22 Magnums in it. --- a .357 is still a 357, no matter the barrel length though, so really hot loads will get some muzzle whip going, but thats not why i bought this -- i wanted something for a lot of milkd mannered, accurate shooting with mild loads.

[Grizz]

how about something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0s6YV0Di7M

that's a good time.... 45 ACP just because it's the one. perfect plinker.

[TedH]

I'd say a GP100 or a S&W 686.

[ceb]

Double action .357mag, do most anything a handgun needs to do for most folks and is super fun. I love the single action, but the only one I own is a original Ruger Flattop .44mag for huntin. I love my Smith model 19, its a early one and I expect no trouble from it, but I seldom shoot light bullet magnums through it. Another mid frame .357 a lot of folks overlook is the old Ruger Security-six revolvers, they are tanks, never heard of any real problems out of them, and they can be easily tuned for very good actions.

[gak]

You just have to have:

Aforementioned .357 K - 3" a great compromise, 4" the standard. 5"+ starting to get a bit heavy 'n unwieldy unless just range use.

Pain to re-load though they may be--compared to the DA wheelguns, got to have a single action: Ruger for reliability and full 6 shot capability, and/or a Colt (if on a budget, USFA) "just because." See my .44 comments far below.

.32 H&R Mag Single Six in either the recent (15) years' 4-3/4 "Vaquerito" or older 4+-6+" (general range) adj. sight model. Of all handguns mentioned in the thread, a hoot to shoot or just carry/handle. My favorite wheelgun is a 5.5" early production (1984--one of first out) I had that I let get away in a regrettable short-term cash situation many can relate to. Since then, the fixed sight "cowboy" types have taken over as new favorites worthy of their forebearer.

Meanwhile, companion the above with a SW Airweight snubbie .32M or the new Ruger SP101 .327.

A 1911: Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail (CBOB) a current "hottie" - for good reason. Semi-custom qualities for less than 1/2 the price of similar Ed Browns, Nighthawks, Wilsons, etc.

Echo another's post regarding .44 Special-anything, but the current limited production Lipseys-Ruger BH/flattop looks dandy.

You are in desperate need of a .30 M1 Carbine; like a good lever .30-30 (or .357 in your case), everyone should have one in their stable. Talk about hoot to shoot--reliable and good for SD too, esp with modern SPs.

[madman4570]

All comes down to how much you want to spend.

If you can spend a little extra(well maybe a lot more)
For .357 it would be in S/A----Freedom Arms 97 and in D/A it would be a Colt Python.Finish/Barrel Length your prefrence.
Wish I had either!

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