bear protection

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:36 am

Gun Smith wrote:
In Kalifornia they would arrest you, take your weapon, and first born, fine you, imprison you, and give you community service. Your picture would be on the front page of the local rag and you would be shunned for life. And your weapon would go to the sheriff or one of his friends.

Now being a lifelong California resident, I'm amazed just how many uninformed, or (getting pissy this morning) just plain ignorant folks live in the rest of this nation. If a bear, cougar, coyote, or two legged varmit endangers your life, especially on your property, you can take the appropriate action, up to and including killing the critter. There is no place in California where you can not own a gun, well outside of say a prison that is.

While there are quite a few liberal idiots, they haven't managed to imitate areas of the country where owning a handgun is very difficult. All it takes, is being a good citizen, sufficient capital, and 14 days (yea I know it shouldn't).

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:37 am

kimwcook,
How well said!
Thanks!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:55 am

I agree that the .454's and .475's should be able to do 'anything the .44 does only better' but I'll bet those 405 gr. .44 Mag loads WOULD do the job. I'm not at all sure my 240 gr. factory loads would do anything but make a bear angry.

It would be interesting to see some comprehensive penetration tests of various loads from .357 Mag on up to .460 S&W. Of COURSE the heavier guns would be able to do anything the lighter ones would do, but it would be interesting to see how close the 'puny' ones could get to ordinary factory loads in the big boys.

It seems like if it is at least a "0.4xx" caliber, and at least 400 grains, and close to 1,000 fps, it will do a pretty good job, whatever "it" is. Hopefully "it" can be fired one-hand, accurately, and repeatedly (in case the bear didn't read our 'tests'

).

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:31 pm

Here's some penetration data from a Linebaugh seminar that I attended. The 475 tested was mine and the only one there. Just a for what it's worth. I had lost my data but found it posted else where.

Inches Caliber Bullet Velocity F.P.S.

Exit 470 Nitro Express 500gr Trophy Bonded Solid 2042 Rifle 74”+

Exit 458 Lott 500gr Barnes Solid 2250 Rifle 69”+

Exit 375 H&H 300gr Barnes Solid 2550 Rifle 69”+

56” 50 Alaskan 460gr Belt Mountain Punch 2031 Rifle

55” 44 Mag 300gr Belt Mountain Punch 1964 Rifle

54” 454 Casull 316gr Belt Mountain Punch 1600 Pistol

53” 45-70 Government 400gr Belt Mountain Punch 2088 Pistol

51” 500 Linebaugh Max 465gr Belt Mountain Punch 1326 Pistol exit side

49” 500 Linebaugh 430gr Belt Mountain Punch 1270 Pistol

49” 500 Linebaugh 468gr Montana Bullet Works LFN 1303 Pistol

48” 500 Linebaugh Max 465gr Belt Mountain Punch 1326 Pistol

44” 500 Linebaugh 500gr Grizzly LFN 1100 Pistol

44” 500 Linebaugh Max 525gr Cast Performance WFN 1237 Pistol

42” 45 Colt 335gr Cast ? ? 1270 Pistol

40” 500 Linebaugh 414gr Montana Bullet Works LFN 1085 Pistol

39” 475 Linebaugh 420gr Montana Bullet Works LFN 948 Pistol

39” 45 Colt 300gr Cast ? ? 1286 Pistol

36” 45 Colt 335gr Cast ? LWFN 1045 Pistol

32” 50 Alaskan 525gr Cast Performance WFN 2019 Rifle deformed

29” 414 Super Mag 255gr LBT LFN 1439 Pistol

28” 44 Mag 310gr Garret Defender HH 1083 Pistol

27” 45 Auto Rim 260gr BRP Keith 916 Pistol

24” 500 Linebaugh 400gr Buffalo Bore JHP 1417 Pistol

24” 475 Linebaugh 420gr Montana Bullet Works WFN 892 Pistol

24” 45 Auto Rim 250gr (cowboy load) RNFP 870 Pistol

23” 470 Nitro Express 500gr Woodleigh JSP 2264 Rifle

14” 375 H&H 260gr Nosler Accubond JPP 2781 Rifle

13” 44 Mag 250gr Winchester Black Tallon JHP 1194 Pistol

13” 445 Super Mag 270gr Speer Gold Dot JSP 1343 Pistol

12” 445 Super Mag 300gr Hornady XTP JHP 1376 Pistol

10” 45 Colt 200gr Speer (ashtray) JHP 1142 Pistol

5” 22 Long Rifle 39gr Remington Golde “Paco” FP 965 Pistol

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:33 pm

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:34 pm

kimwcook wrote:I'd like to see the tests, but believe Linebaugh's already done a bazillion of them and the data's pretty much available.

I concede that a double action revolver is a good choice. Especially if your rolling on the ground with a bear on you. But, with a modicum of practice and we all agree no one should be walking around in a bear situation without familiarizing themselves with their weapon of choice, right? I believe a single action revolver is as fast as a double action as long as you've got two hands to operate it. The other advantage with a DA is the reload, but that isn't a part of this equation.

Bottom line to me is be aware of your surroundings, have enough gun for your situation, know how to use it and have it with you when you need it. And, to me that's a revolver, unless I'm hunting and have a rifle in my hands.

Must cordially disagree with that statement. You do not need two hands to operate a single action revolver. If you do, you're doing something really wrong.

Been shooting them things for seven lustrums now, I think I got a handle on 'em.

Joe

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:31 pm

I seem to remember the guy who killed the big bear with the 30-30 did it by hitting him in the nose. The bullet went in the nasal passages and made it to the brain.

Might be the place to aim, if it's more porous than the main skull.

Also, a question. Will a skull hit knock the bear unconscious? I seem to remember someone shooting a cow in the skull, the bullet bounced off but the cow was knocked out. If so, a nice hit from a shotgun slug might at least give you time to run or put a couple in the boiler room, if the bear is unconcious or disoriented.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:47 pm

I shot a larger (700#) black bear, intent on having me on his breakfast table, in the head at 30 yeards with a 12 gauge rifled slug. It went around the skull, under the skin and went into its neck. He did not get knocked out but boy was he ever upset!

It did turn him and one shot behind the shoulder and later, two shots of OOO buck point blank into its chest, it expired. Can't imagine what a bigger bear would do. The 400 grain bullet at 950fps is a light load in the 475. The .44 does well to match that. The 475 on the bear above in theory would have gone through skull, well down into the spine and perhaps out the other end. I don't ever want to shoot another bear, but if I do, I think the 475 will do well no matter what bear I pull down on.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:01 pm

Thanks for the linebaugh data, love to see that.

For another perspective, my 45/70/525 load at 1470 fps from a guide gun penetrates 12+ jugs of water; don't know how that equates to Linebaugh's testing media. I do know that so far I haven't seen any load go thru more than 13 one gallon jugs of water.

That same 525 load exits a 10" BFR at 1315 fps, so it's right up there with the heavy penetrators in the chart above.

My point about the redhawk 405g round is that I get plenty of penetration to take out the CNS, have six rounds to start with, and have less recoil than a stock .44 load, all benefits in the bear stopper scenario in my mind.

I hunted with single action .44s for years, took a lot of deer with it, and quit carrying it because for me, I consider it less advantageous under adverse circumstances than the DA redhawk. I don't think using it with my weak hand with a lighter bullet while a bear is sitting on me would be as intelligent as shooting the bear with 405g bullets from a double action gun that just needs a grip and squeeze to operate. That's just me talking. I'm not recommending anything. I just want to outlive the bears and not succumb to one.

I'm not saying anything about all you guys who can do that with a single action revolver that recoils like a .416 Rigby, I just am admitting I'm not good enough with SA revolvers to trust myself to be better with one than I would be with the DA revolver. I'm just saying. Just relating where I'm at after thirty some years in Alaskan wilderness.

Regards,

Grizz

PS: I agree that the .475 looks really good. I've thought about getting a 4" ruger .480, but it's 5 shots and for my needs I don't think I'm gaining anything. It would be fun to check it out though.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:15 pm

Grizz,
Absolutely understand you have to shoot what you feel good with and can shoot well.Dont get me wrong those Redhawks are fantastic guns and the 44 mag is one of the greatest calibers even produced.
I have a couple myself and love them.

I say,you have confidence in it,you shoot it well and shoot it fast
if need be and with either hand if you had to. So I think you have a winner there pal. lets hope no one on this blog ever has to shoot a big/mad/hungry/brownie under those circumstances.

Bexause if so at that moment,probably nothing is big enough!!!
see ya,

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:54 pm

madman4570 wrote:Grizz makes some good points!!!
But please do not tell me your 44 is going to out do a .454 or .475
linebaugh???????????I am not talking just 240gr factory loads either.
what factory load is your 405 grainer??
Lets compare apples to apples!
I own a 8.375" SS Raging Bull Double Action .454 revolver.
Sure,I will take take that challenge if you are so inclined

I have one box I loaded last week of 50, but only a couple of shots will do.
Mine will be 316gr Belt Mountain Punch bullets @ 1600fps
Also I have a box of "factory Loads" 360gr WLNGC loads @ 1450fps
that I also think would do!

Most people can't deal with the recoil from shooting the .454, .460, .475 or 500 handguns. Why do you think you see the all but new monster guns for sale all the time? The shooter develops a flinch that means hitting even a close target is next to impossible, much less a precision snap shot at a charging bear's head.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 6:41 pm

Bear, no I hear what your saying.That could be true with a lot of people.For myself it feels like I get more felt recoil from my S&W 629 with fairly stout Cor-Bon 44 mag loads(I have the factory grips on it)though I do have a set of Pachmayrs I dont care for their looks. Maybe its because that Raging Bull has a special anti recoil insert in the grip and it weighs 63oz
I dont get that sharp snap/roll like my lighter 6" smith gives?
It just kinda shoves you.

Maybe its just me?

Now I will say,my brother in law has a S&W 500 and we sat down at my kitchen table and closely compared my Raging Bull with his 500 Smith and he even said the Raging Bull looks/feels rugeder built.I have shot his 500 and it seemed about like my raging bull.Not too bad.Now my Ruger SS super blackhawk shoots nice,it just has a little roll to it(got herrett target grips on it)

rjohns94, I conceed none of mine or my brother in laws is as rugged as that Freedom Arms "sweetie" you have,you lucky devil

I want it!!!!!!!!!

I kind of have it,its my screensaver

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Sun May 31, 2009 7:14 pm

I'd use my Browning 1886 SRC in .45-70 Govt. Stoked with either Garrett hammerheads or Bear Tooth Pile drivers. I'll keep the .44mag on my hip to shoot myself it the .45-70 doesn't diswade the charge.

Just my $.02

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 7:23 pm

Amen to that!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:23 pm

madman4570 wrote:Bear, no I hear what your saying.That could be true with a lot of people.For myself it feels like I get more felt recoil from my S&W 629 with fairly stout Cor-Bon 44 mag loads(I have the factory grips on it)though I do have a set of Pachmayrs I dont care for their looks. Maybe its because that Raging Bull has a special anti recoil insert in the grip and it weighs 63oz
I dont get that sharp snap/roll like my lighter 6" smith gives?
It just kinda shoves you.

Maybe its just me?

Now I will say,my brother in law has a S&W 500 and we sat down at my kitchen table and closely compared my Raging Bull with his 500 Smith and he even said the Raging Bull looks/feels rugeder built.I have shot his 500 and it seemed about like my raging bull.Not too bad.Now my Ruger SS super blackhawk shoots nice,it just has a little roll to it(got herrett target grips on it)

rjohns94, I conceed none of mine or my brother in laws is as rugged as that Freedom Arms "sweetie" you have,you lucky devil
I want it!!!!!!!!! I kind of have it,its my screensaver

Maybe you can but I said "Most people can't deal with the recoil from shooting the .454, .460, .475 or 500 handguns." The operative word is "MOST".

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:52 pm

I remember alot of .44 mags being traded in with partial boxes of ammo right after Dirty Harry made them so desirable

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:22 pm

That is how I got my first one.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:28 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:...Most people can't deal with the recoil from shooting the .454, .460, .475 or 500 handguns. Why do you think you see the all but new monster guns for sale all the time? The shooter develops a flinch that means hitting even a close target is next to impossible, much less a precision snap shot at a charging bear's head.

Which is why you aren't shooting for the head, just the collar-bones.

Break the motive structural system and you can dispatch it with a better placed shot.

That said, I do agree about "most people". I spent a lot of time doing adrenaline-drills with my Casull before I felt really comfortable with a 20ft 8" snap shot...

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:11 pm

Different people are different. I find anything beyond a standard .44 Mag out of a handgun to be nasty, but I can tolerate a great deal of recoil from a rifle or shotgun. Small wrists, big shoulders. Still, the folks who can actually bullseye something as small and difficult to hit as a bear's key bone structure or CNS are few and far between. And I'm not one of them

I've missed a squirrel repeatedly with a short gun while he sat there chittering insults at me five feet away!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:19 pm

Oh Boy!
Someone here had a series of pictures of a lab that assumed he had a baby squirrel cornered, then came Mom,baby & Mom were back up in the tree; and the lab was looking up wondering what just happened.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:34 pm

But please do not tell me your 44 is going to out do a .454 or .475
linebaugh???????????I am not talking just 240gr factory loads either.

Not saying it out-does those Linebaughs. I'm saying that with the results I've gotten so far I don't think there is a skull in NA that can stop that bullet from reaching the brain, regardless of what animal we're talking about. The topic is bear protection. That means a CNS shot that literally stops the bear. Or moose, or bison, or steer, or horse. Any big out-of-control animal that needs stopping. I am also saying that since I can achieve that with a six shooter with low pressures and low recoil, I don't need anything "more powerful".

As far as crippling the animal, one Alaska guide used a 45/70 to take out both pelvis joints of a bear that a client wounded when the bear was coming back to take out the client. That immobilized it. It would be tough to do that to a bear that was coming front on. It took three or four shots to kill that one dead.

Right now I think the 405g load is more than adequate. I didn't think that about my hunting load, a 325g pb cast bullet that wasn't as hard as the ones I'm shooting now. I used to dread bear encounters, and I've been at fresh bear kills armed only with the superblackhawk and those bullets. I was very uncomfortable even though I was in my physical prime and my shooting prime. Those bears scare the spit out of me and I don't trust them to play nice. A medium size brownie was rummaging around under my house and it felt like a small earthquake. They are far more powerful than our nightmares can imagine.

My only field advice is to remember to hold LOW. A gun sighted for 70 yards will put the bullet OVER the head of an animal at 10 feet. I have a witness to this tidbit of information.

It's been fun, I'm done,

Grizz

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:48 pm

First shot on a bear is always a shoulder shot!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:23 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:...Most people can't deal with the recoil from shooting the .454, .460, .475 or 500 handguns. Why do you think you see the all but new monster guns for sale all the time? The shooter develops a flinch that means hitting even a close target is next to impossible, much less a precision snap shot at a charging bear's head.
Which is why you aren't shooting for the head, just the collar-bones.

Break the motive structural system and you can dispatch it with a better placed shot.

That said, I do agree about "most people". I spent a lot of time doing adrenaline-drills with my Casull before I felt really comfortable with a 20ft 8" snap shot...

Never seen a bear move on two legs have you? Breaking a bears collar bone, not much chance of getting both, you will still be dead. You need to bone up on bears. You can blow a bear's heart out when he is upset off and when he dies 4 or 5 minutes later it will be on your corpse.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:27 am

Grizz,
Would you share that 405gr load you use?
Powder charge/bullet mfg/type etc.
I would love to make some of those babies up myself for my 629?
See ya,

Bear,
Is that really true about blowing a bears heart totally out, and that sucker can still get you 5 mins later???????? OMG
Hope not Black Bears,we have some 700lb plus ones.Right now in my woods. Last fall there was one estimated about 725lb on my porch.I opened up the curtains on my sliding door and there he was.Huge nose fogging up the glass door,His butt was so big he tried turning around on my porch which is about 6-7 ft wide and he got hung up.He had to BACK off the porch(too big to turn)I am 6ft 4" and that sucker was just about looking my right in the eyes.several years back we had one pretty close to us killed and it was close to 810- 840lbs.I used to go out in the woods with only my stihl 260pro.no gun,not anty more?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:45 am

Grizz, Found your load on the other blog. thanks!!!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:50 am

here is my blacky. I am 6'3" and 225, standing beside the bear, not behind. his nose is on the ground. 710# estimated live weight. I ate good for a year.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:52 am

Bear 45/70 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:...Most people can't deal with the recoil from shooting the .454, .460, .475 or 500 handguns. Why do you think you see the all but new monster guns for sale all the time? The shooter develops a flinch that means hitting even a close target is next to impossible, much less a precision snap shot at a charging bear's head.
Which is why you aren't shooting for the head, just the collar-bones.

Break the motive structural system and you can dispatch it with a better placed shot.

That said, I do agree about "most people". I spent a lot of time doing adrenaline-drills with my Casull before I felt really comfortable with a 20ft 8" snap shot...

Never seen a bear move on two legs have you? Breaking a bears collar bone, not much chance of getting both, you will still be dead. You need to bone up on bears. You can blow a bear's heart out when he is upset off and when he dies 4 or 5 minutes later it will be on your corpse.

Actually, I have. Spent a lot of time in close proximity to Bears (Russian River, Deshka, Kenai) while acting as "Bear Guard" during the Salmon Runs in Alaska.

I'm less concerned about a standing bear (unless I'm right under it) than one charging on all fours.

A Standing, bellowing (brown/grizz) bear is POd, but is mostly telling you to "go away". I listen.

OTOH, a charging bear provides a nice shoulder-on shot (but lousy frontal-slope head shot)... and is about the only legal way to shoot a bear out of season unless you are under it.

At any rate, those were the instructions and training I had in AK.

As far as Blackies go? I've only ever had to deal with one, and kept the campfire between him & me while the squirrels pelted him with pinecones until he left, so shooting him really wan't necessary.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:14 am

I would love to make some of those babies up myself for my 629?

sorry, it doesn't fit in a 629, I'm fairly sure the cylinder is too short to contain that round. someone pls tell me if I'm wrong about this. I think there may be some other wheel guns with the same cylinder length as the redhawk, but I don't know which ones.......

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:24 am

rlohns,

That is a Big Bear there.When they get that big they seem to definitely get an attitude.A lot of these blackies in Pa are actually bigger than most of the western grizzlies.(of course not the coastal guys)
The one my buddy killed last season at his place (656lb) he is getting a full mount done and the taxidermist has to use a grizzly blank and taking off some of the shoulder hump.Three years ago at the NY Sate Fair, they had a big trailor setup where they charged to go in a see a Huge Grizzly($3)???
Well my daughter and I went in to see it.they had a inch thick lexan clear veiwing area and the bear was a 625lb grizzly.With that bear they had a 610lb Blackie.They were playing/fighting?? with each other and somtimes the Blackie would get the upper hand etc.
Anyway that gave me an appreciation that it dont matter what type of bear,Size matters! and a 600lb blackie will wreck you as quick as a 600lb grizzly if it wants to.(heck a 200lb one can wreck you)
In Muncy Pa at Gander Mountain in the trophy room they have a 636lb full mount blackie.Anyone that has never seen one that size will be amazed.They are huge.The paws/claws on that backie are unreal.Like the live one that was on my porch.I wonder how big that blackie at my place is now???My neighbor says that big one hardly even runs away any more when he bangs the pans,it just walks slowly up my driveway and somtimes turns looking at him and woofing.
Everytime I go out in the dark I now think about it.My house is right in the woods and secluded????The neighbors down the road are really old and put out at least 50lbs of birdfood a week that the bears run down my driveway to get it??I cant complain much because they watch my place like its their own.(remember its my summer home)its only 6 miles away from my residence home.Also NYS I cant have my handguns

So a lot of time I am not armed??
They dont honor Pa CCW ????????????

The wife says dont worry your as big as that big one,just grab a big stick. (Ok,ya right)I dont think so!!! See ya

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:09 pm

Best thing to do if a bear charges you is wound your huntin buddy and then run!
Same with sharks, just nick the swimmer next to ya!

You guys need to web search " Montana DNR bear / ranger encounter" or some sorts [ South fork of the Flathead River at Hungry Horse reservoir ] . and the pics should come up.
Have em here but would not know how to post them here.Could email to someone if they knew how to post.

When I lived in Montana the DNR was filming a bear relocation. The griz was in a 8 or 9 foot cage in a pickup. The ranger climbs on top of the cage and begins to pull the cage door open straight up. The griz begins to go out but the cage was hanging over the tailgate just enough that the weight of the bear and warden caused the cage to topple out, throwing the warden onto the ground directly in front of the exiting bear UH OH . Anyway, the warden draws his .357 magnum [ duty gun,probably hollowpoints] and starts shooting as the bear is eating his legs. On the SIXTH ! shot Mr. bear drops dead on top of the warden,brain shot . Bet he was in church that Sunday ! I have it on video tape cuz the TV station aired it and also have it on stills that someone made from the tape .

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:50 pm

this is not the video but is a series of stills that depicts the above story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcn0Qqm- ... re=related

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:51 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:...kept the campfire between him & me while the squirrels pelted him with pinecones until he left...

Nice squirrels. I'd keep some of those around for bear protection.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:21 am

I could frame a house with a tack hammer, but I think I'll just keep using the big ones; it takes a hell of a lot less whacks.

A charging grizzly isn't gonna warn you, and start 100 yards away. Generally, it's gonna be either an ambush from heavy cover, or the both of you bumping into each other, and getting surprised. How good are you on quick draws and headshots when you're busy crapping yourself?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:12 pm

an ambush from heavy cover, or the both of you bumping into each other, and getting surprised. How good are you on quick draws and headshots when you're busy crapping yourself?

let's see, you're in heavy cover in bear territory, and you don't have a big bore cocked with the safety off?

anyone who thinks they'll have time to draw a weapon, or even cock a rifle, or even bump off a safety when the bear jumps you has never seen bears operate. the bear's gonna win that one every time.

a few years ago in sitka a tourist on a bicycle stopped to "let" a sow with two cubs cross halibut point road in front of him. he was so rapt at being close to 'mother nature' that he completely missed the boar that walked up behind and decapitated him. one whack.

anyone walking in heavy cover with a holstered gun is likely to get the same treatment. one whack. won't have a chance to stuff your drawers.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:24 pm

That's why you need to use your ears and other senses as well as your eyes. They seem to pop out of the underbrush. I've always been able to hear them rustle around before I see them. They have these sort of tunnels in the dense undergrowth they barrel along. It's a different noise than a moose makes.

But the danger isn't that enormous. These aren't man-eating tigers or the lions of Tsavo. They're mostly pretty amiable critters and as long as no idiot is feeding them they just like to be left to themselves. Brown and black alike. Common sense plays a big role in these encounters, as does a little luck. You can't always be 100% ready and you certainly can't blow away every bear you see. But move carefully and use your senses. If you see tons of bear sign and hear bones crunching somewhere ahead of you on the trail, it's time to turn around and leave or take another route.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:04 pm

This all reminds me of a story told to me by my local gundealer buddy. He has a friend who some time ago was in NM visiting friends on a reservation (don't remember which tribe but I think Comanche?) anyway there was a bear causing them problems and they asked him if he would go shoot the bear. He agreed and took the only rifle he had with him, a 94 Win in 30-30 to do the job. The indians instructed him to charge the bear (becuase this would make the bear stand up on its hind legs) and then shoot it in the pelvis first and then finish it off. Thats what he did and it expired after all six rounds were dumped into it. Apparently the idea is to break the bear's ability to run at you....

Good story huh? I enjoyed it when he told it.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:06 pm

All of my problems with bears have been when the bear was forted up on carcass either their own kill or a carcass/gut pile from a hunter. Chances are you might get hurt a little but a pistol can save your life. You cant always walk around with a rifle in your hands and if the rifle isnt in your hand your SOL. Even if its in your hand its hard to use when their chewing on you.
If I remember right there was a special on Discovery channel (Bear Island, I think) about a guy that works in Alaska as a part time F&G bear trapper that was attacked and had his leg chewed on he was armed with a long gun and was fighting off the bear and another F&G guy had to shoot the bear with a shotgun, his rifle didnt work for him.danny

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:39 pm

OCOK,

I think the inidans just wanted set up the white man!

The bear would eat the white guy and the native people would eat the bear.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:51 pm

But the danger isn't that enormous..........They're mostly pretty amiable critters and as long as no idiot is feeding them they just like to be left to themselves. Brown and black alike.

pretty amiable critters eh?

BWAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAA

ROFLMAO

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:04 pm

Well they are. Even funny at times. If they were out for human blood there would be a lot more maulings around here. I've had many trail and fishing encounters with them, brown and black, and none have involved injuries to me or the bears. They know what we are, and so long as they don't get fed or tamed they don't want anything to do with us. I've had MUCH more worrying encounters with moose over the years, including getting charged into the devil's club and even getting stalked for five miles by a cow who was out of her mind and kept raising her hackles at me. Can't shoot the moose, though.

As far as the bears, just use due care and common sense. We can argue forever about what gun to carry, but in the end the best defense is between your ears. If it feels dicey, it probably is. Most of the local maulings over the years have been attacks on fast-moving people who inadvertently run or ride past a bear. That includes the spate last summer in the park, and the horrible killings on McHugh in 95.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:09 pm

We used to treat/think of Brown/Griz like they were Drunk Rednecks - especially when fishing.

Mostly Bluster, but mean and dangerous when provoked.

Just let them have their way/don't get between them & the fish and they would be relatively reasonable - even allowing you to fish just upstream of them.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:11 pm

Drunk rednecks--that's exactly right! Like some big cousin who's usually fine left to himself but will sometimes haul off and start punching people for no apparent reason when he's in his cups. You just leave him be and give him his space.

It's odd I suppose, but I don't know many locals who actually *hate* the bears or view them as bloodthirsty menaces. It's hard to hate them. Wolves are another matter--lots of people here really despise them. Though bears actually hurt and kill humans far more often than wolves. We're inclined to forgive the bears because, like you say, they're like a drunk redneck. There's no malice in them, they're just fricking huge and hungry. Wolves seem to know what they're doing. They're sober. If they come in at night and eat your dogs, you know they planned it all. You wake up and there's just an empty leash and a tiny bit of blood and fur. No barking, no nothing. That's enough to inspire plenty of fear and hate.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:15 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:I could frame a house with a tack hammer, but I think I'll just keep using the big ones; it takes a hell of a lot less whacks.

A charging grizzly isn't gonna warn you, and start 100 yards away. Generally, it's gonna be either an ambush from heavy cover, or the both of you bumping into each other, and getting surprised. How good are you on quick draws and headshots when you're busy crapping yourself?

All the time I spent in Grizz country and all the bears I've seen that's never been an issue. Bears are generally noisy and are not inclined to ambush peeps - at least not in my experience or the experience of the guys I hung with in the Bush...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:19 pm

Pathfinder09 wrote:OCOK,

I think the inidans just wanted set up the white man!

The bear would eat the white guy and the native people would eat the bear.

What'd you call me?

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:24 pm

a few years ago in sitka a tourist on a bicycle stopped to "let" a sow with two cubs cross halibut point road in front of him. he was so rapt at being close to 'mother nature' that he completely missed the boar that walked up behind and decapitated him. one whack.

I don't remember this. When was this?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:26 pm

Cosmoline wrote:
a few years ago in sitka a tourist on a bicycle stopped to "let" a sow with two cubs cross halibut point road in front of him. he was so rapt at being close to 'mother nature' that he completely missed the boar that walked up behind and decapitated him. one whack.
I don't remember this. When was this?

Don't remember exactly, I'm pretty sure it was before the mill shut down, or when the transition was taking place. My brother knew the guys who did the clean-up. It was out the road around sawmill bay. It was hushed up and didn't make the news, they didn't want to frighten the mre's.... er, tourists.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:54 pm

The very best bear protection is the ability to run faster that any of your companions.

Failing that ability, silver buzzard's advice (to wound one of them) is next best.

.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:29 pm

Pathfinder09 wrote:I'd use my Browning 1886 SRC in .45-70 Govt. Stoked with either Garrett hammerheads or Bear Tooth Pile drivers. I'll keep the .44mag on my hip to shoot myself it the .45-70 doesn't diswade the charge.

Just my $.02

Is that a Fred Hook saddle?

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:32 pm

I love bear threads. The entertainment can go on for days.

Page 5, shall we try for six?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:42 pm

jeepnik wrote:I love bear threads. The entertainment can go on for days. Page 5, shall we try for six?

by all means. got any good bear stories to entertain us?