bear protection

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:34 pm

About 3-4 years ago I was elk hunting outside Jackson, WY. I read where a hunter was attacked by a sow grizz. He and his fellow hunters were watching a group of cows waiting for legal light when a cub came up to him. He tried to shoo it away and attracked mom. She charged. He threw his rifle at her in an attempt to distract her while he deployed his pepper spray which stopped it in its tracks. Problem was, the cub stuck around. He sprayed her everytime she attacked and it worked until it ran empty after 3-4 times. Then he started getting scalped. His partner who saw what was unfolding, had climbed up a tree. He came down and shot the grizz saving his buddy. In the hospital interview the victim said he was afraid if he had shot the bear he would be in trouble.

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:15 am

I've hunted in grizzly country quite a bit. The grizzly's we have are smaller than the browns by quite a little and I have seen a black bear that was as big as or bigger than some grizzly bears. Having said that, these 'little' grizzly bears in the Yellowstone are nasty, scary looking animals. I've never had to shoot one although we run into them yearly. We've had them in camp, on carcasses, circling the meatpoles, etc. I've had them bluff charge me too. Thankfully they stopped before I had to pull the trigger (I watched them over the sights on my 45-70 Marlin once and my 44 Redhawk the other time. The impression they give me is that I'd better pack something besides just pepper spray.
That brings me to my thoughts on the guns. I have a 45-70 or 35 Whelen with me every trip into the grizzly country. They are loaded with heavy bullets (460 hardcast and 250 Hornadys respectively). The pistol I pack is the same as 'grizz'. I just shoot measly little 325 hardcasts out of mine though. One comment on the Ruger Redhawk, it does have a longer chamber than the Super Blackhawk I had and the S&W my friend has. I can seat bullets out quite a lot farther which translates to either bigger bullets or more powder space. The 5.5" model doesn't quite want to drag your pants off your hips like some of those big pistols either, and you're more likely to pack it daily.
I will go against some of opinions and say that 00 buckshot isn't what I want against a bigger bear. I don't think it's going to work. I'd surely stick with the slugs.
For my situation with respect to the size of a Yellowstone grizzly, you only need so much penetration. I think the loads I use will get into one far enough to work.
Lot's of good stuff on this subject.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:20 am

I could post a pic of my mother in law in a swimsuit...... lots o' backhair!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:51 am

Gosh you guys, I kind of have to disagree a little bit about the 00 Buck not being good for Bear attacks close up.Look what the guides use for big cats wounded in dense african bush?(00 or 000 Buck)
Reason I say this and I might be way off base and will eat my words if proved wrong, is have any of you actually shot a bear in the face at 25feet or so with a 12ga 00 or 000 Buck shell?I have not,"BUT" I have shot a 615lb boar hog that was crazy mad at about 20 feet about 15 years ago.

It got a hold of my uncles Rottweiler which "somehow"got in the large fenced area?The dog was a 145lb big male and that boar was in the process of killing it.I ran to my truck grabbed my Ithaca 18" Deerslayer on the gun rack reached in the glove compartment pulled out a 5pk of Winchester 2.75" 00 Buck and was running back to the area while stuffing those shells in the tube.

Anyway that crazy Boar had the Rotty pinned down against the wall on the backside of an old barn goaring the stuff out of it and the dog was yelping to beat the band.So before I even knew I ran up to the opposite end of the pen"jumped in" ya "jumped in" the pen was about a 25x40 area.I started hollering/fake charging/stomping my feet then the stupid boar turned to come to me and when he was about 20feet from me I shot him in the face with that 12ga.
That Boar actually when backwards about 2 yards,it looked like smoke came out his ears.It blew half his face/snout off.No eyes left/busted off both tusks etc.My uncle still to this day always brings this up at gatherings.(that crazy kid actually went in that pen)
I have got to believe that medicine would work as well on a bear.
If any of you have or know of someone who shot a bear close up with 00 or 000 in the face and not turned them I would be interested.
Missing shots or partial bad hits dont count!I am talking about a direct face hit.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:09 am

good one madman. how did the rottie do?

I know someone who related this: he was bird hunting near Hoonah when he came face to face with a brown bear. the kind that can bite your head off. he unloaded his No. 6 shot point blank in the bear's face and killed it.

Any more tales around?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:51 am

Grizz,
After $2700 worth of Vet Bills at Cornell,they finally ended up putting the dog down 14 weeks later.The surgery couldnt fix the back/hip problems enough not which the dog was not in constant pain.(also could not completely heal infection problems)
The Vet that did the surgery told my uncle if that hog hadnt of gotten the dog up against the wall of the building (dog was on his back and couldnt get back up) it would have been a different out come.
Belive me , that 12ga did so much damage it was unreal.
I dont know what the bear would see/bite you with???
Though they still have claws but my god,seems like after your face
gets blown away you wouldnt want more?
Those .33 balls went deep into the huge boars head.unreal.
I can only imagine what a 12ga 3.5" 000 would do?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:20 pm

jkbrea wrote:About 3-4 years ago I was elk hunting outside Jackson, WY. I read where a hunter was attacked by a sow grizz. He and his fellow hunters were watching a group of cows waiting for legal light when a cub came up to him. He tried to shoo it away and attracked mom. She charged. He threw his rifle at her in an attempt to distract her while he deployed his pepper spray which stopped it in its tracks. Problem was, the cub stuck around. He sprayed her everytime she attacked and it worked until it ran empty after 3-4 times. Then he started getting scalped. His partner who saw what was unfolding, had climbed up a tree. He came down and shot the grizz saving his buddy. In the hospital interview the victim said he was afraid if he had shot the bear he would be in trouble.

I used to work in that country. If you shoot a bear, a gov't employee has to be able to determine from the tracks that you were about to go hand to hand with it. B.S., I know.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:48 pm

hey mad, thanks for the update. stinks about the dog. glad you got the bad guy.

I'll have to re-evaluate the shotgun deal. I wasn't impressed with the slugs I tried, they didn't penetrate fir as well as my revolver round does, they were too soft. I think I assumed the buck shot would be similar. I wonder if there is such a thing as a hard cast round ball??? I'll add it to the list of things to check into more thoroughly. Maybe Gate's triball is the real deal. So many experiments, so little time.

thanks,

Grizz

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:59 pm

the one I shot, the slug bounced off its head and went around the skull under the skin. knocked him loco though. he was finished off with 000 at point blank range,

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:09 pm

madman4570 wrote:Gosh you guys, I kind of have to disagree a little bit about the 00 Buck not being good for Bear attacks close up.Look what the guides use for big cats wounded in dense african bush?(00 or 000 Buck)
Reason I say this and I might be way off base and will eat my words if proved wrong, is have any of you actually shot a bear in the face at 25feet or so with a 12ga 00 or 000 Buck shell?I have not,"BUT" I have shot a 615lb boar hog that was crazy mad at about 20 feet about 15 years ago.

It got a hold of my uncles Rottweiler which "somehow"got in the large fenced area?The dog was a 145lb big male and that boar was in the process of killing it.I ran to my truck grabbed my Ithaca 18" Deerslayer on the gun rack reached in the glove compartment pulled out a 5pk of Winchester 2.75" 00 Buck and was running back to the area while stuffing those shells in the tube.

Anyway that crazy Boar had the Rotty pinned down against the wall on the backside of an old barn goaring the stuff out of it and the dog was yelping to beat the band.So before I even knew I ran up to the opposite end of the pen"jumped in" ya "jumped in" the pen was about a 25x40 area.I started hollering/fake charging/stomping my feet then the stupid boar turned to come to me and when he was about 20feet from me I shot him in the face with that 12ga.
That Boar actually when backwards about 2 yards,it looked like smoke came out his ears.It blew half his face/snout off.No eyes left/busted off both tusks etc.My uncle still to this day always brings this up at gatherings.(that crazy kid actually went in that pen)
I have got to believe that medicine would work as well on a bear.
If any of you have or know of someone who shot a bear close up with 00 or 000 in the face and not turned them I would be interested.
Missing shots or partial bad hits dont count!I am talking about a direct face hit.

Cats are not bears. A upset off bear makes a upset off cat seem like a stuffed toy when it comes to mean and not stopping. Besides those morons in Africa insisted and some still do that a 45/70 at Marlin levergun levels is not enough gun for African big game.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:32 pm

ya, I hear you on that one. a 45-70 should do the trick!

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:02 pm

Alaska F&G published what may be the only systematic study of this issue a few years back. After examining hundreds of shootings and tests, they concluded the minimum safe for brown was .30'06 level in the 220 grain range or a slug. Buckshot did not do very well at all.

Ah, here it is, or at least a summary of it:

http://www.bluemountainlodge.com/docs/h ... r_guns.pdf

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:27 pm

That makes sense you would have to be very close,being that it could be too close.I know a great big pig isnt a mad bear its just if you seen that boars head after I shot em.Man I dont know?
Anyhow would rather have my 45-70 for bear.I am just thinking now every time I go out in my NY/PA borderline woods am I going to need a 45-70.heck I used to take a .22 or just a big stick????

Only problem people now feed em(though most say they dont)except my neighbors theyadmit it

around me and we have some over 600+ lbs. man should I treat it like being in alaska????????? Right now only lever I got is a Marlin .35 rem.
Got 2 45-70s but single shots,got some big mag bolt actions.
How about an SKS or AR15 w/20or 30 round mag.Good God,
now I will be nervous about the wife and kid outside in the woods.
Last fall after that big bear had to back off my porch because of being to big to just turn around.When hunting let me tell you when I go out there in the dark with just a tiny mini mag flashlight walking up that big hemlock gorge right out my back door and the wind is howling so all you hear is the leaves swishing its kinda nervey.Course it didnt help watching Cujo that first night before going out there.I dont use my atv because the deer are really smart and they spook.So I quietly carefuly walk it in the dark???????

I kept thinking I am going to come up on this hey what is this black???wham there goes my face?Even in the daylight its kind of spooky(but beautiful)those huge
hemlocks make it really dark.I keep looking for some indian riding across the woods on a painted pony??????? or Bart the bear from the movie the Edge(I know he died but?)

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:26 pm

just so you know, black bears are far more prone to attacking 'just because they can', and far more people are mauled/killed by black bears. but whether that's just because of the population densitys and mixing I don't know.

yeah, if a black bear wants you, tag, you're IT !

just take a bigger flashlight

Grizz

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:32 pm

madman4570 wrote:That makes sense you would have to be very close,being that it could be too close.I know a great big pig isnt a mad bear its just if you seen that boars head after I shot em.Man I dont know?
Anyhow would rather have my 45-70 for bear.I am just thinking now every time I go out in my NY/PA borderline woods am I going to need a 45-70.heck I used to take a .22 or just a big stick????

Only problem people now feed em(though most say they dont)except my neighbors theyadmit it around me and we have some over 600+ lbs. man should I treat it like being in alaska????????? Right now only lever I got is a Marlin .35 rem.
Got 2 45-70s but single shots,got some big mag bolt actions.
How about an SKS or AR15 w/20or 30 round mag.Good God,
now I will be nervous about the wife and kid outside in the woods.
Last fall after that big bear had to back off my porch because of being to big to just turn around.When hunting let me tell you when I go out there in the dark with just a tiny mini mag flashlight walking up that big hemlock gorge right out my back door and the wind is howling so all you hear is the leaves swishing its kinda nervey.Course it didnt help watching Cujo that first night before going out there.I dont use my atv because the deer are really smart and they spook.So I quietly carefuly walk it in the dark??????? I kept thinking I am going to come up on this hey what is this black???wham there goes my face?Even in the daylight its kind of spooky(but beautiful)those huge
hemlocks make it really dark.I keep looking for some indian riding across the woods on a painted pony??????? or Bart the bear from the movie the Edge(I know he died but?)

Get a better light! I suggest the Surefire G2L. The plain G2 is plenty bright, and only $40, but eats batteries a lot faster. The G2L has an LED bulb, so it's brighter, and the batteries last longer. I hate to give that much for a light, but it's well worth it, and a lot more valuable to me than the pile of maglights I have that don't work, or the batteries are swollen up in them, or.......

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Forgot to add: Just get a .458 SOCOM upper for the AR; you know you want one!

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:05 pm

some of the biggest brown bear have been flattened with a .22. some have ran away after a couple of hits with a .458. a 180 grain hardcast in the brain from a .357wcf , up close, should stop the biggest, meanest bear, maybe, so should a 460 weatherby, maybe. MAYBE, thats where the old saying comes from. some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you. good thread

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:28 pm

Very entertainin' thread!

Jeepnik, I do believe we are goin' for 7 pages now.......

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:37 pm

stretch wrote:Very entertainin' thread!

Jeepnik, I do believe we are goin' for 7 pages now.......

Okay, let's see if this one will push it over.

But back on topic. I'll state my position. For bear, cougar, coyote (I'd say wolf, but we don't have them here yet), or even an irate coon, I'll take a heavily loaded Blackhawk in .45 Colt for a handgun, and a 45-70 GS for a long gun. If they don't suffice, well, it's just my time.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:44 pm

Jeep, I think you're in WA state. I believe we have some in the northeast corner if memory serves me right. I don't think they'll make it very far on the wet side. But, they're coming.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:48 pm

Thanks you guys for all the great ideas.
ya know, I have a 2 pack of Element brand Luxeon flashlights
that are really super bright and pretty small.from sams club.
The year before last I used one but I swear it alerted the deer I was coming.I know its not supposed to but???Anyway what the heck it is better than getting chewed.see its weird my house sits just in the woods at the base of a mountain with this huge hemlock gorge with a creek.so when I come out my back back door I am right on a log road.The problem is the deer hang about 100yards in and all along the benches on the mountain.I have about 6 different logroads that run 3/4s of a mile running lengthwise.Most of my woods about 200 acres of red/white oaks and also the big hemlock gorge is about 600ft wide and 1450 ft long.then it goes to oaks.See them darn deer hang in the mountain laurel,if anyone approaches from the bottom they just go up top or sideways along the log roads.So you have to watch the wind,either wait until it comes from the east or go way around the bottom and circle around.(about a 2 mile hike)I like hunting in the big hemlocks.Always big bucks there.I dont even hunt turkey now because they hang out in the Hemlocks and honest to God its no challenge.They are everywhere.
Even walking up the log roads it stirs the turkeys all up in deer season. Later Dudes!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:02 pm

kimwcook wrote:Jeep, I think you're in WA state. I believe we have some in the northeast corner if memory serves me right. I don't think they'll make it very far on the wet side. But, they're coming.

Supposedly there are some Brown Bears slinking across the border from Canada (I'm sure they have no passports and Homeland Security disapproves) over on the dry side as far west as Curlew and Chesaw. The main reason none have shown up on the wet side is that there is to much civilization. The wet side would not faze Brown Bears, the really big ones live off the coast of Alaska for crying out loud. Western Washington is being over run by Liberals and Greeners at an alarming rate. There are wolves in Washington now, escapees from Idehoo.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:02 pm

kimwcook wrote:Jeep, I think you're in WA state. I believe we have some in the northeast corner if memory serves me right. I don't think they'll make it very far on the wet side. But, they're coming.

Nope, California. But heck, we made seven pages.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:16 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:
kimwcook wrote:Jeep, I think you're in WA state. I believe we have some in the northeast corner if memory serves me right. I don't think they'll make it very far on the wet side. But, they're coming.

Supposedly there are some Brown Bears slinking across the border from Canada (I'm sure they have no passports and Homeland Security disapproves) over on the dry side as far west as Curlew and Chesaw. The main reason none have shown up on the wet side is that there is to much civilization. The wet side would not faze Brown Bears, the really big ones live off the coast of Alaska for crying out loud. Western Washington is being over run by Liberals and Greeners at an alarming rate. There are wolves in Washington now, escapees from Idehoo.

I thought I'd read something about them coming across the panhandle from Montana.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:25 pm

boy wouldnt it be nice if I could carry a big handgun at my NY place.(.475 Linebaugh)heck I would buy one if they let me carry it in NYS.
Oh thats right//NOPE I cant, because it over in NY State-6 miles from my other Pa residence place

Boy, but they love to get their taxes though but tell me I cant have a pistol in my other house and all that land???NYS??????????

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:07 pm

Been away from the board for a while, glad I came back and caught this thread! Been thinking about making the trip to AK before I deploy to Iraq again. Lots of good info here, guess I'll leave the .357 Blackhawk at home and bring the .44!!

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:18 pm

If anyone is planning on coming up here in the near future, remember to bring plenty of spare ammo. Everyone is short right now, shorter than I've ever seen. The shelves are empty and the supply lines are very slow. Don't count on finding what you need when you get here.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:04 am

Is there a bear on page 8............Anyone ?..........

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:12 am

Maybe a 45/70 Bear.

Steve,
Yes, take the .44 mag with ya Pal.
I hope you have some Great R&R while back in the States.
Have fun and prayers up for ya when you go back over there!
All the Best! (Keep your head down!)

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:27 pm

A number of years ago, I read an article by P.J. O'Rourke about a trip he took to Alaska. He rode in a car somewhere with some young kid who brought along a 1911 for bears. When they returned to the kid's home, his mother ripped him a new one for not bringing the .44 Mag. He probably didn't do that again.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:20 pm

JustaJeepGuy wrote:A number of years ago, I read an article by P.J. O'Rourke about a trip he took to Alaska. He rode in a car somewhere with some young kid who brought along a 1911 for bears. When they returned to the kid's home, his mother ripped him a new one for not bringing the .44 Mag. He probably didn't do that again.

guess the kid did allright to make it back. up close, the difference between the 2 isn't enough to worry about.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:26 pm

I beg to differ. The ACP uses short, round bullets with a very low sectional density. It's actually designed NOT to penetrate very much, because it's for shooting two legged varmints. The .44 Mag with bear loads has heavier, much longer bullets with a SD many times greater than an ACP's standard load. They are also moving a lot faster and have more momentum, all of which gives them superior penetration power.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:35 pm

i can't argue the paper ballistics between the 2. the .44 always comes out the winner. before the .44s&w, and even before the .357 s&w; the 45 auto provided adequate , peeking in your tent, type protection. besides, i'm trying to keep this post going

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:01 pm

The caliber of the gun is less important than the caliber of the man holding the gun.

No handguns has 'stopping power' against large animals. Forget about 'shock'. Unless the CNS is damaged they will eventually expire from blood loss if at all. What is wanted is a sturdy bullet that will give deep penetration to penetrate the skull or spine or reach vital internal organs. Unless the CNS is destroyed it will typically take 5-7 seconds at least no matter what gun is being used.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:51 am

We can argue this 'round and 'round, and it's just so much smoke; the BTDT guys won't use a .45 auto or a .357, and don't recommend it. These guys are aware of these guns and calibers, and don't recommend them. Who the hell are we to argue? All the data in the world makes no difference, if they don't work! For that matter, communism, socialism, and Obamaism all work!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:00 am

It's not only about caliber, it's about using the best ammo for the caliber you have on you. Cosmo pointed out that the ACP is designed for controlled expansion and no over-penetration. But if you put a hard cast wide meplat bullet in the 45 ACP it will penetrate better than many suspect.

The standard .44 mag 240g jsp is a real deer killer out past 100 yards, AND has been used to stop charging bears.

A 230g flat point 45 ACP can be propelled pretty close to 1000 fps without too high pressure. That bullet is more than likely going to make it thru skull bones to the brain of a bear. If the bear's on you you get the up angle thru the soft throat, neck area into the brain pan, or in the mouth, or eye or nose, with a bullet that isn't likely to be deflected by bone enounters, as long as it isn't a glancing blow as Mike describes.

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.

Another page of discension/discussion please..... :)

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:33 am

Heres a boar that visits me every year these pics are from april 07 he had just come out of his den. 60 yds from the house (neighbors ranch). I saw him last year while haying but didnt have camera, his front pad measured 7" which makes him a 8 foot bear. danny

For comparison thats a 50lb salt block

Below my hayfield in crick bottom in may

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:38 pm

I remember when you posted those the first time. Nice sized bear. Wouldn't want to walk around a corner and meet him face to face. Not that I wouldn't mind taking a nice brownie. But, distance is my friend when hunting things that can kill me in a heartbeat.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:25 pm

Just to take part in a long thread, I should mention a canoe trip that my brother and I took some 20 years ago when we were working on Afognak Island. We were out in the bay fishing and there was a big ol' brownie grazing on the beach. We were able to paddle within about 50' of him and it became evident that my brothers words were absolutely true.

He turned and looked at me with his eyes probably as wide as mine since neither of us figured we could see over his back if we were standing next to him and said "bro, people can theorize about what gun they want for bear defense, but if it doesn't cause me to need to pull it with my truck, it ain't a big enough gun for me...:

I love .44's but there is no doubt if I have a brownie looking me in the eye ever again, I want to have something shoulder fired with a depleted uranium core

22

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:27 pm

When my kids were little we were skiffing among the little islets around Squid Bay on the outer coast of Yacobi Island. I had my .44 superblackhawk in case we saw a deer. I was looking for firewood drifting around.

A noisy herd of crows caught our attention raising a rucus over a little rockpile with a few trees on it. I put-putted that way and came thru a narrow channel looking at the wheeling birds. Told my wife there was something dead up there that needed investigating.

Then something in the channel caught my eye. Looked like a big black hefty bag of garbage and I was grumbling about the people who still tossed their garbage overboard in plastic bags when the plastic bag turned towards us and opened its mouth. One of the biggest brown bears I've seen was in the water about thirty yards away. I cut the engine and drifted so the kids could get a good look.

That bear was pretty ticked off because, as I'll describe later, we were between it and its dinner. It started toward the boat with its mouth wide open making sci-fi noises. I quickly restarted the engine and backed out of there. The bear swam to the beach of another small islet that had a log I wanted for firewood. It ran up the beach, turned around in the leafless alders and DISAPPEARED. When it wasn't moving it was almost impossible to see it, even with 7x binoculars. I could have been on that beach hooking up that log with a bear 15 yards away licking its chops at my little mre's running around.

We gave up the log, discretion being the better part of valor that time, and motored back to the bird rucus. I climbed quietly and nervously to find a brownie cub almost completely eaten. The pads were still intact, most of the skin was still there, and almost all of the innards were eaten. Brer Bear's dinner.

Did I mention that the swimming bear was BIG ? It could have easily bitten off a man's head with one chomp. We were all grateful to get back to the safety of our fishing boat, knowing we got to see something very awsome, and very dangerous. And no other people for miles around.

It's truly great land.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:20 pm

Grizz,
I just put up a wind generator for my uncle, the rural electric pays twice a year, he is due to get his check next month, I will do the calcs and get back to you.
Twelve thousand total cost, five thousand in rebates should come in cheaper than the numbers you posted.

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:02 am

OK two more stories from when I lived in Montana .
In the 80s the Burlington Northern had a derailment along the southern end [outside] of Glacier National Park.The train dumped several grain cars of corn and BN just left it when they retrieved the cars. The state made them go back and get it after several reports came in later of drunken griz and moose running into vehicles and generally acting as if it was nickel night at the cat house ! True story [along the route near US 2]

I lived in little town called Bigfork at top of Flathead Lake.Beautiful place,30 miles from Glacier, where Swan river came into Flathead. The smart ones among us carried 44s with 250 cast everywhere ,spec' at night , but many Granola heads sneered at it and still do there.
The DNR had a radio collar on a huge griz that decided to take up residence 100 yards from the local Dairy Queen one summer in a thick draw. The DNR decided the public need not know and left the bear there all summer while the good townfolk sent their kids and women for a treat. We all found out ol' griz was there when he walked up to the counter and ordered a Snickers Blizzard. True story, well.... up till the end there.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:10 am

Grizz wrote:It's not only about caliber, it's about using the best ammo for the caliber you have on you. Cosmo pointed out that the ACP is designed for controlled expansion and no over-penetration. But if you put a hard cast wide meplat bullet in the 45 ACP it will penetrate better than many suspect.

The standard .44 mag 240g jsp is a real deer killer out past 100 yards, AND has been used to stop charging bears.

A 230g flat point 45 ACP can be propelled pretty close to 1000 fps without too high pressure. That bullet is more than likely going to make it thru skull bones to the brain of a bear. If the bear's on you you get the up angle thru the soft throat, neck area into the brain pan, or in the mouth, or eye or nose, with a bullet that isn't likely to be deflected by bone enounters, as long as it isn't a glancing blow as Mike describes.

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.

Another page of discension/discussion please.....

Yeah, next time a bear has you down, chewing on your head, get out your compass and slide rule, use the diagram you're carrying of the bear's anatomy, note his weight and body fat content, factor in his body mass index, then shoot him with the same ball ammo that people were using back when it was decided that this gun was proven to be undesirable for this app. about 100 years ago!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:20 am

Travis Morgan wrote:
Grizz wrote:It's not only about caliber, it's about using the best ammo for the caliber you have on you. Cosmo pointed out that the ACP is designed for controlled expansion and no over-penetration. But if you put a hard cast wide meplat bullet in the 45 ACP it will penetrate better than many suspect.

The standard .44 mag 240g jsp is a real deer killer out past 100 yards, AND has been used to stop charging bears.

A 230g flat point 45 ACP can be propelled pretty close to 1000 fps without too high pressure. That bullet is more than likely going to make it thru skull bones to the brain of a bear. If the bear's on you you get the up angle thru the soft throat, neck area into the brain pan, or in the mouth, or eye or nose, with a bullet that isn't likely to be deflected by bone enounters, as long as it isn't a glancing blow as Mike describes.

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.

Another page of discension/discussion please.....
Yeah, next time a bear has you down, chewing on your head, get out your compass and slide rule, use the diagram you're carrying of the bear's anatomy, note his weight and body fat content, factor in his body mass index, then shoot him with the same ball ammo that people were using back when it was decided that this gun was proven to be undesirable for this app. about 100 years ago!

sounds like sour grapes from someone who hasn't done much penetration testing with subsonic loads. and I stand by my statement:

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.

naturally if you're shaking too much you might not be able to deliver the round where it needs to go. others have done it, with both results, supporting the fact cited above.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:32 am

mescalero1 wrote: I just put up a wind generator for my uncle, the rural electric pays twice a year, he is due to get his check next month, I will do the calcs and get back to you. Twelve thousand total cost, five thousand in rebates should come in cheaper than the numbers you posted.

I would like to see those numbers. The figure in my sig is the cost of the big subsidized windmill farms with the ginormous windmills. The point is that those things don't create enough electricity to MAKE THEMSELVES and provide a surplus to sell to the grid.

Anyway, small scale will almost always suffice for low power consumers. The cost of making a wind setup that will run a 350 amp arc welder 8 or 10 hours a day, plus all the other motors that need running, is the true test of the value and cost benefits of wind power. By the time you have a battery bank that will power a small shop during every lull in wind generated electricity you've only proven how cheap, efficient, and cost effective carbon based energy really is. And the costs of that battery bank, I believe, will never repay any possible savings in cents/kwh. If the actual un-subsidized lifespan cost numbers are different I'd be very interested in seeing them.

Regards,

Grizz

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:43 am

Grizz wrote:
Travis Morgan wrote:
Grizz wrote:It's not only about caliber, it's about using the best ammo for the caliber you have on you. Cosmo pointed out that the ACP is designed for controlled expansion and no over-penetration. But if you put a hard cast wide meplat bullet in the 45 ACP it will penetrate better than many suspect.

The standard .44 mag 240g jsp is a real deer killer out past 100 yards, AND has been used to stop charging bears.

A 230g flat point 45 ACP can be propelled pretty close to 1000 fps without too high pressure. That bullet is more than likely going to make it thru skull bones to the brain of a bear. If the bear's on you you get the up angle thru the soft throat, neck area into the brain pan, or in the mouth, or eye or nose, with a bullet that isn't likely to be deflected by bone enounters, as long as it isn't a glancing blow as Mike describes.

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.

Another page of discension/discussion please.....
Yeah, next time a bear has you down, chewing on your head, get out your compass and slide rule, use the diagram you're carrying of the bear's anatomy, note his weight and body fat content, factor in his body mass index, then shoot him with the same ball ammo that people were using back when it was decided that this gun was proven to be undesirable for this app. about 100 years ago!

sounds like sour grapes from someone who hasn't done much penetration testing with subsonic loads. and I stand by my statement:

Anyway, with the right loads you can get better CNS performance than with the wrong loads.
naturally if you're shaking too much you might not be able to deliver the round where it needs to go. others have done it, with both results, supporting the fact cited above.

Actually, it was meant as a joke, with some facts woven in. Personally, I don't care if you jump on a grizzly's back, point your finger at his head, and yell, "BANG! You're dead!". This is a discussion. If you wanted to lecture, go find a mirror or a herd of bored dairy cows.

They'll probably at least look at you like they're interested, for a while.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:26 pm

If you wanted to lecture, go find a mirror or a herd of bored dairy cows. They'll probably at least look at you like they're interested, for a while.

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalm 1

which is it gonna be? I'm not lecturing, I'm relating facts. you're the one making jokes in this thread.....

Regards,

Grizz

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:58 pm

Grizz, where does Coal fall in. Your numbers are surprising to me. Who knew? how about Solar?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:28 pm

rjohns94 wrote:Grizz, where does Coal fall in. Your numbers are surprising to me. Who knew? how about Solar?

I think that's from this website:

http://icecap.us/

It's probably pretty far down the archive list now. That's the best website for real facts that I know of pertaining to climate warming and the political machinations going on.

Solar is the same deal, at least for solar panels, because the cost of making them in terms of the energy used doesn't get recouped compared to just using the carbon energy in the first place.

There are two main ways of making electricity for the grid, steam and fuel oil. Coal, nukes, some fuel oil plants, and geothermal plants use steam to spin turbines to crank generators.
And fuel oil powered internal combustion engines cranking generators.

These sources constantly put electricity onto the distribution grid. The grid can absorb some electricity from windmills and other sources for concurrent distribution. But wind and solar has cycles, like daylight and, well, wind. So there has to be an infrastructure that provides the needs when those supplimentals are off line. If the bamacrats manage to shut off carbon electrical generation and try to rely on windmills and solar panels America will revert to the dark ages, literally, faster than al-bama can say "boy-howdy"..... but you already knew that...

Grizz

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:58 pm

Cosmoline wrote: and the horrible killings on McHugh in 95.

Is this what you are referring to (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... cade#1990s)?

Marcie Trent, 77, female; and her son, Larry Waldron, 45 July 1, 1995 Brown Killed by a bear defending a moose carcass on the McHugh Creek Trail near Anchorage,