Curious about CCW Stance

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:13 pm

I'm just curious to where you guys and gals (do we have any gals here?) stand on the CCW issue. I know some of you hold a permit for reasons of expediency... but wonder if you can look yourself in the mirror and feel it was the right thing to do.

I don't hold a permit. I view the 2A as the only legitimate principle that addresses the god given right of self protection and self preservation. My state of Oklahoma is a shall issue state. And though I understand the premise of our SDA (Self Defense Act) I reject having to go to any government entity to seek permission to protect myself, my family or my property whether I am at the homestead or away from it.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Sam Adams... none of them would have begged their state for a conceal carry permit.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:18 pm

I have held a CCW for a good many years, but seldom feel the need to exercise it.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Same here when I am in Phoenix, when I go home to New Mexico the route takes me precariously close to Old Mexico, and then I am ALWAYS well heeled.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:24 pm

DO NOT CONFUSE WHAT IS "RIGHT" AND WHAT IT LEGAL. I DAMNSURE HAVE A CCW AS DOES MY WIFE. YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME ANYWHERE WITHOUT A SIDEARM SOME WHERE. IF YOU'RE WILLING TO RISK THE TERM IN JAIL FOR CARRYING ILLEGALLY BE MY GUEST. IN SOME PLACES YOU'LL BE A CONVICTED FELON THEN AND GUESS WHAT YOUR "GUNRIGHTS" WILL BE THEN !!! PLEASE NOTE I WILL NOT BE VISITING YOU IN THE HOOSECOW BECAUSE I CANNOT CARRY THERE. THE COURTS HAVE SAID WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO OWN FIREARMS BUT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHERE WE MAY CARRY THEM. SORRY, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS AND YOU ARE NOT GONNA CHANGE IT, I AM NOT GONNA CHANGE IT, AND NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER CHANGE IT IN OUR LIFETIMES. DO I LIKE THAT, HELL NO !!!!!!!!

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:26 pm

Guys, thanks for replying. My question though... do you feel right about it?

Maybe it's that I'm a rebel or something. But when I became an American I viewed the 2A as the supreme concealed carry permit. Was I wrong?

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:28 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:DO NOT CONFUSE WHAT IS "RIGHT" AND WHAT IT LEGAL. I DAMNSURE HAVE A CCW AS DOES MY WIFE. YOU'LL NEVER SEE ME ANYWHERE WITHOUT A SIDEARM SOME WHERE. IF YOU'RE WILLING TO RISK THE TERM IN JAIL FOR CARRYING ILLEGALLY BE MY GUEST. IN SOME PLACES YOU'LL BE A CONVICTED FELON THEN AND GUESS WHAT YOUR "GUNRIGHTS" WILL BE THEN !!! PLEASE NOTE I WILL NOT BE VISITING YOU IN THE HOOSECOW BECAUSE I CANNOT CARRY THERE. THE COURTS HAVE SAID WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO OWN FIREARMS BUT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHERE WE MAY CARRY THEM. SORRY, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS AND YOU ARE NOT GONNA CHANGE IT, I AM NOT GONNA CHANGE IT, AND NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER CHANGE IT IN OUR LIFETIMES. DO I LIKE THAT, HELL NO !!!!!!!!

Hmmm. Abortion is legal... but definitely not right. Do you have a permit to type what you typed? Go to the church of your choosing if at all?

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:30 pm

I don't have a CCW permit and have never felt the need to have one. I could get one in a matter of hours. They are easy to get here. There are more CCW permits in my county (percentage of permits to population) that any other county in CA. I carry a shotgun in each of our vehicles 24/7/365 with various shells (#4 Buck and #4 Field Loads) with the shotgun and if I feel for some reason I need a handgun, I tuck one in my belt and carry it even though I don't have a CCW permit. That's only once in a Blue Moon. Make that a Blue Blue Moon. Like once in the last three years.

I frequently go to NV and OR and in order to cover myself carrying the shotguns across state lines into another state, I have a non-resident hunting license from NV and OR which gives me the right to have a firearm in my vehicle in those states.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:31 pm

DBW,

I have said what you just posted several times. I lived in AZ for many years and never did get a CCW. But then AZ is an open carry state so when I felt the need I just carried. No problems.

Unfortunately Terry is absolutely right. What our Constitution says, and what the laws and courts say does not agree. So as much as I despise CCW laws if I had the choice of getting one here or not carrying, I'd get one.
But that won't happen. IL will never get a CCW law until Daley and his corrupt mob run govt is gone. There will be ice skating in August on the Colorado river before that happens.

Joe

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:33 pm

Yes,
I passed the backround test, attended class, and have abided by the rules, like Terry, I never go anywhere without it. I just do not wear it on my forehead.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:36 pm

DBW -

You're pretty close to turning this into a Political Thread. Please don't as this could make for a good thread.

Listen to Terry. If you carry without a permit, yer possibly on the way to jail and losing your gun rights.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:44 pm

Carrying a handgun is a heck of a lot of reponsibility and not to be taken lightly. With all the gang bangers running around armed to the teeth, you had better be prepared for a confrontation, but darned sure don't go lookin' for one. Shoot, my puny little .38 Super Combat Commander is no match for what half of the bad boys are packin', anyway.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:47 pm

J Miller wrote:IL will never get a CCW law until Daley and his corrupt mob run govt is gone. There will be ice skating in August on the Colorado river before that happens.

Joe

Well, global warming is a hoax and it appears we're headed for another ice age so you may get your wish.

Maybe I'm too philisophical about this. Being that I'm nothing more than an ignorant mushroom I tend to read the Constitution with a KISS bias. It says what it says and I believe it says what it says. As far as I can tell the 2A reaffirms that no government entity may infringe upon that right. A CCW in my opinion is an infringement as it demands that I seek permission to exercise a human right. I've debated this with others who are adamant that the State has the right to regulate how we carry as is the case in Oklahoma's constitution. However, when a state constitution contradicts the Bill of Rights, how then can the state then insist that they're constitution trumps the Bill of Rights?

For the record, I don't carry at all simply because I run up to Canada and must obey their sovereign laws and having a gun in the truck would get me into trouble with Canadian customs. It's a choice I make and as such accept that someday I could wake up dead in my truck wherever I travel. Before Oklahoma passed it's CCW law I carried. I simply am unable to bring myself to yield on a principle that the Founders would never yield to either.

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:48 pm

To answer your question, I do not feel right about it. I really dont feel right about many rules, regulations and all sorts of things. I have no desire to be arrested, when I could have applied for a simple permit.
I make a living mowing lawns, pressure washing patios and driveways, and cleaning pools. I need a total of 3 state permits and 2 county permits to legally do my job. I could do as many do, and go with what I feel is right and not get the proper permits.

The most important thing for me is that at the end of the day I come home. If I need permits to insure that, no problem.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:49 pm

Modoc ED wrote:DBW -

You're pretty close to turning this into a Political Thread. Please don't as this could make for a good thread.

Listen to Terry. If you carry without a permit, yer possibly on the way to jail and losing your gun rights.

I definitely don't want it to be a political thread. Such is not my intent. It's philisophical and a topic that intrigues me as a naturalized citizen. I've taken the oath to defend the Constitution twice in my life... first when I became a citizen and second when I joined the Air Force. I'm simply curious to the mindset of other gun owners on the right or wrongness of a permit.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:52 pm

I'm a LEO so I can carry anywhere in Washington State concealed on or off duty minus a couple of areas. I also have a CPL just in case I find myself in a jam and my department backs out on their umbrella. I wouldn't hang myself out and potentially lose my right to carry or hunt by not following the law. And, that's not just because I'm a LEO.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:52 pm

What country are you a native of if you don't mind my asking?

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:57 pm

Modoc ED wrote:What country are you a native of if you don't mind my asking?

Canada. My mom is from the Netherlands and my father was born to Luxemburger parents in the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia). My mother was in the Royal Dutch Navy and met my father in Indonesia where he was working as a chemical engineer. They returned to the Netherlands and then immigrated to Canada in the late 1950's. I came to the US when I was five where I basically grew up "American". I didn't become a citizen though until I was fourteen. Joined the Air Force when I was eighteen and served four years as a way to repay a debt to America.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:24 pm

DBW,

I have a permit and I feel right about it. I'd like it better if I didn't think that NOT having the permit is just a setup to make me an instant felon with all the accompanying rights and priveleges.

It begs the question of what's going to happen when the illigitimate potus makes me a felon by fiat.

But the best reason I see for having the permit is to get on board that database. If 200 million Americans would get cc permits, it would constitute a huge anchor weight of sentiment. Unfortunately the state has succeeded in corrupting the school industry to make the current out class as stupid as the speaker. And it's axiomatic that we can't fix stupid.

Sometimes in other states where my permit is worthless I do risk the wrath of the idiotarians because, as I recently explained to my bride, I could live with myself easier if I had the means of defending her and wound up in jail for doing it than if I couldn't protect her and had to live with those consequences.

It makes me furious that a group of individuals as corrupt and pus-filled as the politicians can abuse their position to make my family fodder for the criminals they create, by stripping me of my civil rights. I'm angry, and I'm clinging to my God and my gun.

Grizz

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:29 pm

For many years, I carried without a permit. However, I do now own one. As Terry said, I don't like it, but if I had been caught carrying without one, I would have lost what little legal standing I had -- forever -- to carry and protect myself and my family. For that reason, I also do not carry where not legal...e,g, schools...although once upon a time I did not let such restrictions stop me.

I agree that we should not need permission to carry...but that is the world we live in. I also don't believe that we should be paying the IRS in the manner now currently in fashion -- it is against the intent and words of our founding fathers. However, try not paying taxes and see how far that will get you (although if it weren't for having to care for my family, which I can't do from within a jail cell, I might just be one of those protesters). It seems to me that we need to continue the fight to regain our rights by using the system as a first option. Only on the face of extraordinary circumstances are more drastic measures called for. I also don't think personal, hidden crusades gain us much on the public front, nor move the pendulum to our side any. I think it's better to legally get a permit and therefore increase the statistics of CCW holders, which we can use as evidence in the fight. It's tough to stand up and be counted when the world doesn't know you exist (or carry).

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:45 pm

I carry with a permit. I'd rather not ask permission, but since that is a choice I don't have, I'd rather carry than not. You have a duty to protect yourself and others, and if you choose not to use a permit and not carry, well, it's on you if you could have prevented a crime/killing and chose not to avail yourself of the opportunity.

As an aside, I think it's a hoot to chastize us for carrying with permission from the Gubment, when you are scared to cross into Canada with a gun and risk YOUR neck

ceb · Post by **ceb** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:46 pm

I too agree with Terry, while I don't like it, it is the law. As Joe said, here in Illinois, there is no provision for public concealed carry. Get caught means jail time with a felony conviction. I know it ain't right, but it is the way it is. I do hold a Florida non-resident permit which is worthless here at home, but is accepted in most of the states I travel in. Did it mainly because I could and to thumb my nose at Chicago politicians.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:50 pm

Grizz wrote:DBW,

I have a permit and I feel right about it. I'd like it better if I didn't think that NOT having the permit is just a setup to make me an instant felon with all the accompanying rights and priveleges.

It begs the question of what's going to happen when the illigitimate potus makes me a felon by fiat.

But the best reason I see for having the permit is to get on board that database. If 200 million Americans would get cc permits, it would constitute a huge anchor weight of sentiment. Unfortunately the state has succeeded in corrupting the school industry to make the current out class as stupid as the speaker. And it's axiomatic that we can't fix stupid.

Sometimes in other states where my permit is worthless I do risk the wrath of the idiotarians because, as I recently explained to my bride, I could live with myself easier if I had the means of defending her and wound up in jail for doing it than if I couldn't protect her and had to live with those consequences.

It makes me furious that a group of individuals as corrupt and pus-filled as the politicians can abuse their position to make my family fodder for the criminals they create, by stripping me of my civil rights. I'm angry, and I'm clinging to my God and my gun.

Grizz

Thanks Grizz. The highlighted portion of your reply triggered this thought:

Considering the premise that carrying concealed provides an element of uncertainty in the mind of the criminal who preys upon others, would it be wise of the collective gunowners to tip their hand to the government by allowing them to know who is armed or not armed? By advocating being on a database for the purpose of informing the government that gun owners are a segment of the population are we not giving away that level of uncertainty? The government, in my opinion, is no better than a criminal.

Also, if two states (Vermont and Alaska) recognize that the bearing of arms should not be regulated at all... what does this say about them or the others that do allow concealed carry (though seeking permission is required). I once read a quote that went something like this:

Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

I agree with this quote. Thus, in my mind, to go to the state and seek a permit contradicts the idea of freedom and Liberty. I keep asking gun owners if George Washington or Thomas Jefferson would ask their respective states for a concealed carry permit. I have yet to meet any gun owner who believes that these two men would. I ask then if they believe that if they lived today would they? Again, no gun owner I talk to has yet to state to me that they believe that GW and TJ would. So what does that say about us today?

I also don't believe in civil rights. I believe in individual rights. Civil rights lumps my rights in with the rights of others and diminishes the right of the solitary individual. The country as a whole as migrated away from individual rights and now concentrates on civil (group) rights which I think was the beginning of the devisivenss that is destroying the nation... but I digress.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:58 pm

I have one, don't feel right that I have to go through the process to get one, but glad I have one and can carry leagally.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:58 pm

BlaineG wrote:I carry with a permit. I'd rather not ask permission, but since that is a choice I don't have, I'd rather carry than not. You have a duty to protect yourself and others, and if you choose not to use a permit and not carry, well, it's on you if you could have prevented a crime/killing and chose not to avail yourself of the opportunity.

As an aside, I think it's a hoot to chastize us for carrying with permission from the Gubment, when you are scared to cross into Canada with a gun and risk YOUR neck

You do have a choice. You simply abide to choose what is legal over what is right. I personally no longer carry since Oklahoma passed the CCW law. I'm making a choice and taking my chances. That's not to say I'm not armed... just not with a firearm.

And I'm not chastizing. Simply asking and reiterating my questions with some thoughts to get a better understanding of yall's thoughts. As for crossing into Canada it is a matter of abiding by a sovereign nation's laws. I have a choice by not going there but I do for a couple of reasons... my wife lives there, most of my family lives there and work takes me there. Having read Canada's constitution and hiding out there when I'm not in my truck I have a decent understanding of how things work up there. Because of this I told my wife when we married 4+ years ago that I would never return to Canada to live and once her daughter graduated from high school (which she just did last week), I would drag my wife down to Oklahoma for the duration of our marriage.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:43 pm

DBW wrote:George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Sam Adams... none of them would have begged their state for a conceal carry permit.

I agree with your logic. I do have a permit, and am "semi" comfortable with the concept, as long as it is a SHALL issue and there are NO exceptions. Of course that isn't the case...

When I dispatched for Mayflower, most of the drivers did as you are doing, for a reason you didn't mention; they were driving all across the nation, and sometimes into Canada, and getting permits for all those areas would be impossible anyway. Some relied on the fact that they considered their truck their "home" and were ready to contest it if 'caught'.

Back then, most 'reasonable' LEO's understood why citizens might violate the law in such instances, and I don't think many of our drivers ever had any issues. BUT I do remember many of them refusing to take dispatches even from Oregon or Washington, if they would take them into New York, or New Jersey. They'd rather deadhead to Cheyenne and pick up a load to Georgia than take a full load from Seattle to Newark - ALL of them said it was the asinine NY and NJ laws at that time.

ONE reason "for" permits, sort of - if everyone who COULD get a permit DID get one, it would solidify the impression to the guvmint that a heck of alot of people value that right.

The problem is always that the laws intent gets twisted; back in the mid-20th Century, Ohio legislature decided not to issue "permits" because "permits" might be arbitrarily denied to certain races or religions, and decreed that CCW was OK if you weren't acting in an irresponsible or dangerous manner, committing a crime, under age, or a convict; i.e. that those facts constituted "an acceptable defense" to carrying a concealed weapon, so the officer would not arrest you. Of course "committing a crime" got twisted to mean anything from jaywalking to loosely-defined "disturbing the peace" - and detention in jail, confiscation of your firearm, paying bail, and hiring a lawyer became part of "an acceptable defense" vs. merely the officer observing that none of the ill behaviors accompanied the CCW.

So whatever we accept, the Hitler-wannabes will always twist, whether it is "Vermont" carry or "Indiana" carry...

I do agree with the other that we'd hate to see one of 'our own' get a damaging legal event happen, even if morally you are in the right. Depending on the circumstances, the issue could yield all sorts of jibberish resulting in inability to possess firearms of any kind forever. Stupid law aimed more at innocent citizens than criminals, but that's what we're stuck with until we throw the Democrats AND Republicans out of office who don't respect the Constitution.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:45 pm

You can stand on principle or you can stand in your home a free man after defending yourself from the scum who attacked you. Your choice.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:59 pm

I have a permit, and I am uncomfortable with it - especially after years of Alaska Carry.

The only generic reason to have the permit is to be able to engage in "legal" firearms commerce - a right restricted if you violate one of their "laws". Wouldn't keep me from owning another gun, but it would make aquisition & practice a lot more difficult.

The specific reason to have one in Indiana is that Indiana is a "Must" issue state. Yes, it's more than a Shall, it's a Must. Without a Permit you are not "allowed" (aack spit) to handle a handgun anywhere but your own property. This "law" is largely ignored by State LEO, but it HAS been enforced from time to time at State Run Ranges. So I have one. Lifetime. Never has to be renewed.

Onward:

The "with a permit, they know you have a gun" issue is really a non-starter unless you:

Never buy a gun OTC.
AND
Never hunt where you need a hunting license.

Both cases flag you as a "gun owner".

Me, I'm flagged six ways to sunday because of not only the above, but because I've been a vocal RKBA activist for years. They ASSUME I have a gun, so I may as well prove it to them.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:08 pm

Hobie wrote:You can stand on principle or you can stand in your home a free man after defending yourself from the scum who attacked you. Your choice.

CCW doesn't apply to one's home though. Oklahoma has the Castle Doctrine and as such I'm armed to the teeth. Around my property or while engagine in fishing, hunting the state of Oklahoma allows open carry though open carry but doesn't allow open carry as a means of self defense outside of fishing or hunting. Thus Oklahoma is fine with open carry when it comes to protecting myself against rattlers and wild hogs in the wild... but not another human being with malicious intent in town.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:22 pm

Have one, irks me every time I look at it, but I must carry to defend my family, and I need to stay out of jail to feed them...

pete-driver · Post by **pete-driver** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:37 pm

I have one. Don't carry to often. I never go afield hunting or woods bumming unarmed. Mostly for me here in Michigan it helps with the purchase process. An example would be I can go into any gun store, lay down cash and walk out with a pistol no waiting period. I don't often buy new guns so if I find that must have when I'm on the other side of the I don't need to make a second trip. John

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:48 pm

I also don't believe in civil rights. I believe in individual rights. Civil rights lumps my rights in with the rights of others and diminishes the right of the solitary individual. The country as a whole as migrated away from individual rights and now concentrates on civil (group) rights which I think was the beginning of the devisivenss that is destroying the nation... but I digress.

The Constitutional Amendments ARE civil rights. They apply to all American citizens, supposedly equally. Did you want a constitution that pertains only to you and excludes everyone else so you can have 'individual' rights?

The first amendment, the second amendment, are civil rights, the guaranteed rights of the civilians, as distinct from the government, and its rights. The rights of each individual add up to the collective rights of the whole citizenry, if that's a word...

Grizz

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:06 pm

Grizz wrote:
I also don't believe in civil rights. I believe in individual rights. Civil rights lumps my rights in with the rights of others and diminishes the right of the solitary individual. The country as a whole as migrated away from individual rights and now concentrates on civil (group) rights which I think was the beginning of the devisivenss that is destroying the nation... but I digress.
The Constitutional Amendments ARE civil rights. They apply to all American citizens, supposedly equally. Did you want a constitution that pertains only to you and excludes everyone else so you can have 'individual' rights?

The first amendment, the second amendment, are civil rights, the guaranteed rights of the civilians, as distinct from the government, and its rights. The rights of each individual add up to the collective rights of the whole citizenry, if that's a word...

Grizz

When I mention "civil rights" I'm referring to the group rights mentality that permeates the current culture these days. In other words, group rights matter (black, hispanic, gay, etc.) and individual rights don't. Instead of laws protecting the individual, laws being passed these days protect groups. This is one of the tenets of Marxism... devalue the individual and uplift the group.

Anyways, thanks to all that replied. it was interesting to get a few different takes on the issue.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:11 pm

I completely understand not feeling that you need to have a license to have the right to protect yourself. However, just wait until you are placed in a situation you feel you need to use your concealed firearm. It is definately not worth the risk to have the possibility criminal charges, lawsuits, and attorney fees just because you feel you shouldnt have to have a permit. You do realize that if you are found guilty of a concealed weapons charge it could result in loosing all of your gun rights once you have been labeled a felon. If your like me, that would result in me loosing my current job and I am sure it will hinder future employment as well. And to answer your question, yes I got the permit.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:18 pm

I have an Arkansas permit and carry every time I go out the door of my house.It's like insurance, hope I don't need it but I do have it and I am glad to have it.
NOW, do you bow yourself down to all the government trucking regulations, do you have a drivers license why should you have to pay for the privilege just to drive around?

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:30 pm

When I first got my first CCW there was none of this controversy going on. I was just 18 years old back then in the 60s. I've had one ever since. Is it right, no. Is it legal, IMHO No! But the State of Washington disagrees. At least we are a shall issue with no classes required. I open carry mostly now, but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW. Oh, most are probably unaware but Open Carry is legal in all but 6 States. For more info go to;

http://www.opencarry.org/

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:05 pm

I think what it boils down to is, How much money do you have?

Do you have the funds available to hire the team of lawyers you would need to start this case at your state courts and follow it all the way through to the U.S Supreme Court?

Until someone does, I guess we play the hand we're dealt.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:13 pm

Rusty wrote:I think what it boils down to is, How much money do you have?

Do you have the funds available to hire the team of lawyers you would need to start this case at your state courts and follow it all the way through to the U.S Supreme Court?

Until someone does, I guess we play the hand we're dealt.

Why hasn't the NRA taken this issue on, if they are really defending our gun rights.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:23 pm

alnitak wrote:For many years, I carried without a permit. However, I do now own one. As Terry said, I don't like it, but if I had been caught carrying without one, I would have lost what little legal standing I had -- forever -- to carry and protect myself and my family. For that reason, I also do not carry where not legal...e,g, schools...although once upon a time I did not let such restrictions stop me.

I agree that we should not need permission to carry...but that is the world we live in. I also don't believe that we should be paying the IRS in the manner now currently in fashion -- it is against the intent and words of our founding fathers. However, try not paying taxes and see how far that will get you (although if it weren't for having to care for my family, which I can't do from within a jail cell, I might just be one of those protesters). It seems to me that we need to continue the fight to regain our rights by using the system as a first option. Only on the face of extraordinary circumstances are more drastic measures called for. I also don't think personal, hidden crusades gain us much on the public front, nor move the pendulum to our side any. I think it's better to legally get a permit and therefore increase the statistics of CCW holders, which we can use as evidence in the fight. It's tough to stand up and be counted when the world doesn't know you exist (or carry).

this is very close to my thinking.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:35 pm

First, I will dispute that anyone loses a right because of a conviction, particularly a conviction of a patently unconstitutional law. Not so. It would be more correct to say that one's right gets trampled in that case, but one still has the right.

I used to have a CCW. I gradually decided I didn't want to ask permission for this. It lowers risk for me that open carry is allowed and not unusual in my state, but I carry in other states too.

I've made a philosophical decision about this and other things. Basically, I think the criminal justice system is not about justice at all. Most laws are unconstitutional, and we are absolved from obeying government since government does not obey its own charter, the state and federal constitutions. The only reason not to do what you want (not to disobey some bs law) is pure self-preservation; but then I simply have to weigh the chance of getting caught carrying vs needing a gun and not having it.

I have also decided I won't be disarmed for any reason. If anyone wants to try, it will go badly for him. I'm old enough not to worry about dying. I won't live what remains of my life on my knees.

"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience."

--John Locke, 1690

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:56 am

I believe that everyone has the right to own and carry a firearm as they wish.

That said, I have a CCW. I was among the first couple of hundred citizens of my state to seek training and be licensed when the legislature made it legal. It wasn't because I wanted to be legal, it was because I could. I'm not required to register a carry firearm, I can carry any dadgummed thing I want, as long as it's "legal". Incidentally, I don't believe that there is any such thing as an "illegal firearm," either.

I hold the license to avoid some of the hassles attached to doing what I did before I had the license, and what I'd do anyway if I didn't have it.

I also believe that the more citizens that have licenses and carry, the harder it will be for politicians to defy those constituents to try to make it against the law ever again.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:08 am

My stance? Modified weaver

I carry everywhere except the courthouse, no permit. Don't need one.

ole pizen slinger · Post by **ole pizen slinger** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:52 am

DBW,
I know where you're coming from and you are making it hard on yourself. Like me, you are an idealist. However, we do not live in an ideal world. The Bible tells us to "Obey the powers that be for they are not a terror to those who would do good but to those who would do evil." I often paraphrase so don't count on this being a direct quote. I think we are told this because someone greater than us all realized that some form of law and order is better than anarchy. So, this puts us in the perspective of having to live with "bad laws". What you have to realize is that sometimes we have to live with an unideal situation because an ideal situation doesn't exist. I understand how you read the Constitution--literally, it says what it means and means what it says. We do not have to have the Constitution to guarantee us our rights--our rights come from God, the giver of all rights. If there were no Constitution or Bill of Rights, I believe I would still have the right to carry a weapon because I believe the right of self defence and preservation is a God given right. If man were perfect, we would not have the need for government. However, since man is not "divine" but sinful, man must have some form of government. Sometimes government denies to man his God given rights. Does he still have those rights? Most definitely! In one of the Great Documents of our country it says, "We deem these truths to be self evident--that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights: among which are life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness." Does an aborted baby have the right to life? I believe it does. Presently we have a government that is denying that right to the unborn, but the unborn still has the right to life. What I'm trying to say is sometimes we have to live with the circumstances we have until we can make circumstances better. Do I like it this way? No! But it's just the way it is!

Do I have a CCW permit? Yes! Why? Because I'm a crime victim. I lost 6 pints of blood and spent 6 days in the hospital because of a foolish 19 year old. He is back on the streets. I don't know where he is so I carry. I will not let this happen again. So I carry. I will try to abide by the law as long as possible. Should the law change and deny me the right to carry, I will carry in spite of the law. I would rather be being tried for a felony than be the one who is the victim of a felon being buried. I'll take my chances with the law and hope I find a good jury and justice. Best wishes to you and good truckin' and stay off the railroad tracks.
Ole Pizen Slinger

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:39 am

Ole Pizzen, yeah, I'm an idealist. And as such I'll take the chances that by not carrying the Lord will watch over me. Again, I don't go around unarmed... just not with a firearm. I have no assurances that even if I did carry all would be well. And being that in any given day while driving around the nation I would violate an untold number of local and state laws with regards to firearms. If it were not for the fact that I choose to take loads into Canada I would carry a firearm with me in the truck since doing so is not a violation of the FMSCA which regulates truck drivers. I know another driver in my company that does carry a firearm in his truck, he himself once being shot in the past but he chooses not to go to Canada and a few select states. Of course, this reduces his potential to earn money but this is a choice he makes willingly.

The question was philisophical in nature. It all comes down to whether one is willing to make choices that uphold one's priniciples or if one is willing to make exceptions. The balance between what is legal and what is right is at times murky. Because I'm the idealist I don't think that in my lifetime the situation will ever be what the Founders wanted it to be. We no longer live in a free nation and are subject in one form or another to a government mandate. Every activity we engage in today has government influence upon it. The clothes we wear, the mattress we sleep on, the food we eat, the hours I can work... the air we breathe. All influenced or controlled by our government. We are not free and as Mark Levin stated in recent book, we live in a soft tyranny. Sucks to be us.

mklwhite · Post by **mklwhite** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 am

Here's the problem and it can be rather Zen(ish). It is the illusion of what rights you think you have versus what rights you actually have. "Rights are entitlements or permissions, usually of a legal or moral nature." (Wiki) Legal rights are spelled out. Those are the rights that you have with the state. Moral rights, well those depend on the morals of those you're talking about and may or may not be written down. The term inalienable rights or natural rights are those that are not contingent upon law or custom but should be self evident as taken from nature (philosophical/theological). Nature being the Creator's design not mans and is universal. What we are talking about here falls more under the social contract that exists between the governed and the government and is ultimately where the government receives its power. Without the content of the governed, the government losses its legitimacy.
Here we start down two roads both of which are lead by majority rule, either by simple majority (democracy) or proxy (republic). One road is the power of the State, the other of Federal power. The Constitution really resides in neither and that is the bigger problem. The Constitution grants powers to the Federal government. And about 5 seconds after that, the Fed said "thanks", put the Constitution under glass and set itself up as lord and master. After a while some of the states said "wait a second... you can't boss us around, it's not your job!" and after about 600k+ Americans died later those states were told to shut up and like it. All of which brings us to today.
Here we are, at a time when some States are trying to acknowledge the rights of the citizen and when the Fed is saying "tow the line". Some states allow open carry in many places without permit. If you feel you want to exercise that "right" then move there and show your support to that political environment. Other States use the social contract to say "get a piece of paper and you can carry concealed in many places". If you like that, move there and support those states. If however you wish to go wherever you want and carry and wave the Constitution around... I'm afraid you wont like the result. As the way the government is set up, both State and Fed, the individual who steps out of line is the straggler in the herd. And we all know what happens to those who fall behind.

And remember before you want to "lone wolf" it; that we hang together or we hang apart... that and the wolf has been hunted to extinction in many places so choose your place wisely.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri May 22, 2009 7:27 am

[I don't hold a permit.]
[I view the 2A as the only legitimate principle that addresses the god given right of self protection and self preservation.]
[I reject having to go to any government entity to seek permission to protect myself, my family or my property whether I am at the homestead or away from it.]

Exactly ! - 110%.

IMHO, the 2nd Ammendment IS my CCW permit !

.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:08 am

Bear 45/70 wrote:When I first got my first CCW there was none of this controversy going on. I was just 18 years old back then in the 60s. I've had one ever since. Is it right, no. Is it legal, IMHO No! But the State of Washington disagrees. At least we are a shall issue with no classes required. I open carry mostly now, but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW. Oh, most are probably unaware but Open Carry is legal in all but 6 States. For more info go to;

http://www.opencarry.org/

Now that's a curious law to me. You said, ".............but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW."

So, if you are at home and decide that you want to go to the range to shoot, you can't just put your handgun in the trunk of your car or in a locked container in your truck and transport the gun to the range without a CCW? Not being argumentitive here Bear -- just trying to clarify it in my mind. You also said once before that if you are open carrying on the street and then get in your car that you needed a CCW permit in the car. What if you were open carrying and took the gun off and put it in the trunk? Would you still need a CCW permit?

Or having said all that, are you talking about carrying the gun on your person in a vehicle even if the gun is in plain sight as in a holster on your hip.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:22 am

I don't think that in my lifetime the situation will ever be what the Founders wanted it to be. We no longer live in a free nation and are subject in one form or another to a government mandate. Every activity we engage in today has government influence upon it. The clothes we wear, the mattress we sleep on, the food we eat, the hours I can work... the air we breathe. All influenced or controlled by our government. We are not free and as Mark Levin stated in recent book, we live in a soft tyranny.

Here's one we are in 100% agreement on. We live in tyranny, and much deeper in it than the colonists who rejected it, and getting in deeper than any nation since hitler's. We see it, but other than talk talk talk there's almost nothing we can do about it.

I think about the horse soldiers in Afghanastan, but they won't get orders to make our corruptocrats straighten out and fly right... so the tyranny grows malignantly.

Such is life, almost Biblical in scope, like the Israelites taken in captivity; we live in interesting times.

Grizz

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:30 am

Have one,use it somtimes.
I really dont have a problem with the getting a proper permit.
Pa is fantastic on issue.Last time I renewed a couple months ago , they said it could take up to 6weeks to receive my new one the next day it was in my mail box.
Dont fight the permit battle,you will lose.We have bigger battles to fight.You have to give a little to get a little.Do you want a insane person/ convicted ex con drug dealer/child molester/rapist etc.carrying thats been paroled ????I dont.(though he probably has a stolen one)
Maybe this is just me but somtimes I feel you are actually better
not having a gun on you.(I said sometimes)those times you are better served having PROPER hand combat skills.I say this when you/family etc. are say on a sidewalk and a guy comes up to you shoves his gun in your side and says what he is going to/wants to do.What are you going to do?Remember this guy is a criminal he will not hesitate to right now off you.You have a conscious,that split secound anytime you could hesitate will get you killed.He wont wait.He will anytime right now at a blink kill you.They think different
than us.Now if that man is within 4 feet on myself which I would buy
my chance and wait for,theres a 95% chance I will take his gun and do what I need to do.(Better than him finding I have a weapon on me)then probably shooting all of us before I even clear the gun.
You have to realize a PROPERLY TRAINED person can and will take your gun.Now if the guy just walks up to you and BANG,then your dead.But if he is within a certain distance and says give me your money?I will give him my money.If he says get in this car/to me,my wife,or kid or tries somthing else I deem the threat is greater than just an item taken,I WILL GO FOR IT.His reaction time is impossible
and react before I have his gun.At the training courses I would pick
a young in shape male(quick reflexes)give him the paintball gun and even tell him in advance I will take your gun.EVERY time easily I would take it.(much better chance than a piece of metal in my pocket)But then again that only works for someone within distance
saying somthing like "dont move or else"(not just pulling up and shooting)
I am a half century old and I right now will take anyones guns first before they can pull the trigger.In fact sometimes I would purposely go in slow mo mode and as I was taking the gun letting him pull the trigger to shoot.My profile was already sideways so the paintball goes right past me into the wall missing me.Make sure a good person
isnt standing in that area or they will get it though.
Now walking up a wooded trail with 3 men looking up to no good ,coming down the secluded path.ya,I want my Millenium 9mm stuffed with BB 115JHP 1400FPS ready flicked off safe, pointed easily in their direction in the mini fanny pack.different situation /different deal.
also with all the rampant shootings now things are changing when to carry.Anyway to each their own.I dont have a problem with the permit as long as you can get one.I do have a problem with ALL states not being reciprical through out the US.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:11 am

Modoc ED wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:When I first got my first CCW there was none of this controversy going on. I was just 18 years old back then in the 60s. I've had one ever since. Is it right, no. Is it legal, IMHO No! But the State of Washington disagrees. At least we are a shall issue with no classes required. I open carry mostly now, but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW. Oh, most are probably unaware but Open Carry is legal in all but 6 States. For more info go to;

http://www.opencarry.org/
Now that's a curious law to me. You said, ".............but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW."

So, if you are at home and decide that you want to go to the range to shoot, you can't just put your handgun in the trunk of your car or in a locked container in your truck and transport the gun to the range without a CCW? Not being argumentitive here Bear -- just trying to clarify it in my mind. You also said once before that if you are open carrying on the street and then get in your car that you needed a CCW permit in the car. What if you were open carrying and took the gun off and put it in the trunk? Would you still need a CCW permit?

Or having said all that, are you talking about carrying the gun on your person in a vehicle even if the gun is in plain sight as in a holster on your hip.

It's messed up a bit. No openly visable firearms in the car/truck if they are loaded. Technically, if my concealed carry is NOT on my person, it is illegal. DumbAzz rule, Eh? Wash LEOs are getting hip to the legal open carry thing these days, which is kind of cool. If a property owner asks to you leave, though, you need to do that.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:46 am

DBW wrote:I'm just curious to where you guys and gals (do we have any gals here?) stand on the CCW issue. I know some of you hold a permit for reasons of expediency... but wonder if you can look yourself in the mirror and feel it was the right thing to do.

Yup & I look in the mirror & see a law abiding citizen. I'm not happy about it but its no big deal. We are a nation of laws & $30 or whatever every 5 years dont bug me much.

I don't hold a permit. I view the 2A as the only legitimate principle that addresses the god given right of self protection and self preservation. My state of Oklahoma is a shall issue state. And though I understand the premise of our SDA (Self Defense Act) I reject having to go to any government entity to seek permission to protect myself, my family or my property whether I am at the homestead or away from it.

Thats all well & good as long as you stay there. Can you carry concealed without a permit in OK? I dont think so but I'm not sure. I thought the only states that allowed it were Alaska & VT.
If OK is like most states carrying concealed with no permit is a felony. You might be able to plead it down but you might not. If your convicted of a felony your right to guns is gone.
Also if you consider you dont need a permit at all & gun laws dont count do you carry across state lines & on planes & such? There are all sorts of limitations that I think you likely abide by.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Sam Adams... none of them would have begged their state for a conceal carry permit.

They would have if it was a law.
Its real easy to find yourself in trouble with guns. JMHO but its smarter to be loud, make waves trying to get things rectified & obey the law while doing so. Would really stink to be pro gun & not able to own one legally.