OT a little bit, need scope mounting assistance.... update

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:50 pm

Last August I received a Marlin MR-7 bolt gun for my birthday. I came with a scope but no iron sights.
I ordered the iron sights in and will eventually get the rifle D&T'd for them.

However, right now I need to move the scope back a bit.
It has Weaver rings and bases on it and I just ordered an extension front base so I can move the scope back a bit.

Now, I'm not sure what the model number or part number of the Weaver rings are but they are the kind that has the steel strap that hooks into the right side of the mount and has two screws holding it on the left side.

What I'm worried about is this. Once the extended base is put on the front, I'll need to loosen the rings to reposition the scope. I've been told that this type of ring will cause the scope to rotate as you tighten them.
Some one gave me some instructions on how to do this, but I think the thread was on the other forum.

So my question is really can some of you scope users give me some pointers on how to do this. This is the first scope I've owned so I'm not familiar with how to mount them at all.

TIA

Joe

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:03 pm

Yes, Those rings are very tough but they do tend to turn the scope a little as the screws are tightened. I leave the scope canted just a little tward the "hook " side and it straightens up when the screws are tightened.
I have owned several sets of those mounts. No big deal to loosen and turn the scope a little and tighten again until it looks right to you.
Have fun!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:13 pm

Chuck,

From the other thread I remember someone telling me to tighten the screws till they stop then one more turn. We were discussing over tightening at that point. Does that sound right to you?

Joe

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:26 pm

A full turn sounds a little much. I would see how it does with a 1/4 or 1/2 turn first. Really kind of hard to say without being the one with screwdriver in hand. Just keep a sensitive feel and try not to torque it too tight so that it doesnt dent the tube.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:35 pm

horsesoldier03,

I'll do that. But from what I've found out and been told it looks like whoever put the scope on before has overtightened it. It's a 3-9 powder and it's stuck on 3. I've been told that's because of over tightening.

I'm just hoping that if I loosen it up the power adjuster might free up. That would be nice. I sure can't afford a new scope right now.

Joe

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:51 pm

J Miller
I dont think the power adjusting ring would freeze from over tightening the rings.

As far as how much torque is enough, Like Horsesoldier said I go by feel and I generaly tighten em a lot more than most folks. If you tighten them until the `snap` and back them off 1/4 turn they are just tight!!!

Above is an old joke!! dont try this at home kiddies!

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:11 pm

Over tightening the screws won't cause the power adjustment to freeze up, but bending the scope will..caused by misaligned mounts..either from top to bottom or from side to side..To test for top to bottom alignment.. With the scope removed and the lower ring halfs still on the rifle, lay a straight edge from one ring to the other & see if it's in 100% contact with them..For sided to side lay the scope in one ring and check to see if it points along the axis of the barrel..then do the same with the other ring.. Good luck

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:18 pm

OK, good things to check. I'll grab my tools and do some checking.

Joe

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:49 pm

The little #6 screws that hold the rings tight on that type of Weaver ring will snap before you have to worry about too much tension. With that tiny screw and slot, you wont need to worry.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:26 pm

Well, I got out my tools and gently took the scope off the rifle. The big screws that hold the rings to the bases didn't seem overly tight. However when they were loosened up I noticed the front base was loose. The screws were not even cinched up all the way. No signs of of any Loc-Tite either.

The two screws holding the rings to the scope did not seem overly tight either. So I pulled the scope completely off. No visual signs of any damage. The rings hadn't even marred the scope tube. But the scope power ring is still jammed on #3. It will move a tiny bit towards power 4 but that's all.

I tightened up the front base and used a straight edge at directed and couldn't see any misalignment.

So when my extended base gets here I'll redo it all and go from there. I figure some blue Loc-Tite on the base screws would be in order.

Joe

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:10 pm

J Miller wrote:Well, I got out my tools and gently took the scope off the rifle. The big screws that hold the rings to the bases didn't seem overly tight. However when they were loosened up I noticed the front base was loose. The screws were not even cinched up all the way. No signs of of any Loc-Tite either.

The two screws holding the rings to the scope did not seem overly tight either. So I pulled the scope completely off. No visual signs of any damage. The rings hadn't even marred the scope tube. But the scope power ring is still jammed on #3. It will move a tiny bit towards power 4 but that's all.

I tightened up the front base and used a straight edge at directed and couldn't see any misalignment.

So when my extended base gets here I'll redo it all and go from there. I figure some blue Loc-Tite on the base screws would be in order.

Joe

What brand of scope is it ? What model ?

Wyr
God bless .

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:48 pm

Wyr,

It's a Simmons 3-9 X 40 8 POINT, they don't show it on their web site so I'm going to assume it's discontinued.

Purty please don't tell me to buy a Leupold. I know they are great scopes, but purchases like that are simply out of the question at this time.

Joe

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:50 am

Pre-cant the scope, as posted above, for the correct final alignment - but beware !

Don't glance through the scope with the rifle held in firing position on your shoulder to align/plumb the crosshairs.

If you do, your eye will naturally plumb the reticle (or you can sight against some straight line, like a chimney) - but your shoulder structure will slightly cant the rifle, leading to zeroing errors down the road.

You should check for an aligned/plumb reticle by sighting from the end of the buttstock, and making sure the reticle is square with the action.
That way, if you cant the rifle while firing, it will be obvious.

If you find it difficult to do there are inexpensive L-shaped plastic "reticle aligners" - that have one end that rests on an action flat or bolt rail and the other rises/superimposes in front of the reticle.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:13 am

Joe -

Some guys may come on and say your Simmons 3-9 X 40 8 POINT scope is a cheap scope and they are right as far as cost is concerned. That scope was an inexpensive scope but it is a good scope. I have two of those scopes -- one mounted on a Remington 7600 Pump Action .30-06 and the other on a Savage 110 Bolt Action .30-06. The one on the Remington has been on it for three years without a hitch and the one on the Savage has been on it for years without a hitch. I have other model Simmons scopes on three of my .22LR rifles (their 22 MAG) and they have performed flawlessly. Some people look down at Simmons, Bushnell, Weaver, and other scopes but I have never had one fail for me yet. Leupolds are great scopes but DANG -- I can buy a whole rifle for what some of them cost.

With the scope off the rifle, hold the scope tightly/firmly at the adjustment turrents and firmly try to turn the power adjusting ring. Really put some effort in it.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:25 am

[No visual signs of any damage. The rings hadn't even marred the scope tube. But the scope power ring is still jammed on #3. It will move a tiny bit towards power 4 but that's all. ]

I've found that you get what you pay for, in optics (as well as some other things).

Yes, Leupolds are expensive, but they are usually headache-free, and certainly under a lifetime warranty - the lifetime of the scope, not the owner.

I have several Leupolds, all bought used (either solo or mounted on a rifle) for less than $150., a few well under $100. Cheap at over twice the price.

Ditto, steel-tube American Weavers, Lymans, and Redfields.

You can buy "quality", without paying a lot, by careful shopping.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:35 am

Modoc ED,

With the scope off the rifle, hold the scope tightly/firmly at the adjustment turrents and firmly try to turn the power adjusting ring. Really put some effort in it.

I did that last night when I had the scope off the rifle. I could not budge it.

Pete,
Yep, you do get what you pay for. However in this case I didn't pay for it. It was on the rifle when I got it. It will be replaced somewhere in the future but for now finances prohibit the spending of that kind of money. So I'm trying to get this one to work.
It may end up going back to Simmons, but unless Santa forgot to put a new scope under my tree this one will have to do for now.

( If the rifle had irons on it I'd just pull the scope and toss it, but it doesn't ..... YET. )

Joe

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:43 am

Pete44ru wrote:
I've found that you get what you pay for, in optics (as well as some other things).

Ditto, steel-tube American Weavers, Lymans, and Redfields.

You can buy "quality", without paying a lot, by careful shopping.

I did by quality. 6 Simmons Scopes (2 8 Points and 4 22 MAGs) along with 4 Leupold (3 Vari X II and one Vari X III) and a couple of Weaver Classics (1 4x fixed power and one 6X fixed power. They are all good scopes. Leupolds go bad too. That's why they have a repair department.

As I understood Joe, the scope is used. It may have some dirt/gun oil, etc. around the power adjusting ring. If so, one way to free it up would be to take some penetrating oil and apply a very small amount with a tooth-pick all the way around the ring, let it set for a couple of hours and then turn it or use a pair of water-pump style pliers with wide enough jaws to enclose the ring and put a soft cloth on the ring and turn it with the pliers with of course gentle pressure.

You go Joe and let us know what happens.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:02 pm

As I understood Joe, the scope is used. It may have some dirt/gun oil, etc. around the power adjusting ring. If so, one way to free it up would be to take some penetrating oil and apply a very small amount with a tooth-pick all the way around the ring, let it set for a couple of hours and then turn it or use a pair of water-pump style pliers with wide enough jaws to enclose the ring and put a soft cloth on the ring and turn it with the pliers with of course gentle pressure.

Now, that idea scares the heck outa me. In my minds eye all I see is a big ca-runch as the insides break to pieces as the ring breaks free.

The adjuster ring is not solidly jammed, it will turn a wee bit, so I'll try the oil idea. But I'm not sure about the pliers.

Joe

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:06 pm

You could put it in a pot of salt water and keep it boiling .....
Untill your new Leupold gets here!!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:23 pm

Chuck 100 yd wrote:You could put it in a pot of salt water and keep it boiling .....
Untill your new Leupold gets here!!

Yeah, and if I added some vegetables and spices and seasoning it might come out as a soup too ............

J

e

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:09 pm

Joe -

The key words were, "of course with gentle pressure". I only brought that up because I did it on a used scope's focus adjusting ring once that had accumulated some oil and dirt in the threads and thus gummed up the works. It worked good and didn't mar the scope one bit.

Sometimes ya just gotta take a deep breath and dive in!!!!!!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:23 pm

Pete44ru wrote: If you find it difficult to do there are inexpensive L-shaped plastic "reticle aligners" - that have one end that rests on an action flat or bolt rail and the other rises/superimposes in front of the reticle.

Scope rotational alignment drives me nuts, and so many guns don't have a flat 'reference surface,' so I finally got in the habit of putting the gun butt-down on the floor on a piece of 1/4" rule graph paper. It's easy to see if the buttstock is aligned with the paper. Then a little LED flashlight shined into the objective/muzzle end of the scope usually shows the crosshairs on the paper, and it is then easy to align the scope.

Those durned one-side mounts DO torque the scope some, though, and I find you just have to 'guess' how much.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:33 pm

Daw Gonnit Ed, now I gotta put my vise grips and hammer up.

.

Seriously though I might give that a try. What the heck it don't work to good now, all I might do is break it the rest of the way ...........

AJMD429,
Using the graph paper is a great idea. I CAN do that.

Thanks.

Joe

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:38 pm

After getting my Tipton Gun Vise assembled I clamped my MR-7 in it and proceeded to remove the scope, the rings and the bases.

I cleaned every thing up and installed a new extended front base. The original one was loose when I first disassembled it so this time after degreasing everything I put some Motorcraft Compose de freinage et d'etancheite on the screw threads. That's blue threadlocker to all you non bi-lingual folks.

Did the same for the rear one and then reassembled it.

Modoc Ed, I tried using padded pliers on the power adjusting ring - no way in the world will it move.

AJMD429, I didn't have any 1/4" graph paper so I used one of those 1" graph cutting board things my wife uses to cut her patterns out on. Worked great.

It is amazing to me just how much more comfortable that rifle is to shoulder now that the scope is sitting more to the rear. Just 1/2" makes all the difference in the world.

Joe

john4me05 · Post by **john4me05** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:49 pm

Is the eye relief jammed against the power adjusting ring or is there a tension screw on the power ring... I had rad into a tight one a few times and these 2 things along with removing the scope and "wrenching" it solved the problems... Just do like was stated earlier.. Wrap the ring in a cloth and dont squeeze the ring too hard... Just enough pressure to keep the jaws from slipping off.. When it turns run the full gambit (3-9 and back and forth and back etc) til it moves freely.. SOme tension is good as the ring wont turn when unslinging it or it rubbing against trees or stuff (assuming you will hunt with it)... There are a few CHEAP scopes out there but a Simmons aint one of them.. Its inexpensive..

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:14 pm

John,

I backed the eye piece and it's lock ring off from the power adjuster and it made no difference. There is a small screw in the adjuster ring, but I've been cautioned by another poster on another forum not to mess with it. ( I don't know what the screw holds any way.)

So far I've been able to move the ring about half way between the 3 and 4 power setting. But by the feel of it, I'm trying to force one piece over another inside. I can feel the metallic resistance.
So I've just quit messing with it.

If I had a schematic of what's inside, so I could see how it's assembled I might be tempted to do more. As it is if I don't ruin it I can still shoot with it.

Joe

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:09 pm

This has been an interesting thread to follow.

If it shoots a good group and feels comfortable, then you got a weiner!

3x is good anyway!

My dad' Ruger m77 .308 shot great all the time, and I always left it at 3X.

I could see the extra power helping past 150yds, to be sure, but heck, I bet you can shoot pretty good with it as is.

Range report!!!!

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:52 pm

J Miller wrote:Wyr,

It's a Simmons 3-9 X 40 8 POINT, they don't show it on their web site so I'm going to assume it's discontinued.

Purty please don't tell me to buy a Leupold. I know they are great scopes, but purchases like that are simply out of the question at this time.

Joe

I was asking , because different brands have better or worse warranties . I have read that someone recently bought Simmons and Weaver ( or Redfield ? ) . I read that their warranty is now slim or non-existent ?

Having said that , I bought a Winny M94 last week with a Simmons 8 Point scope on it . Have not shot it yet , so can not give much insight . I also have at least 2 other Simmons scopes on other rifles .

I hear you , as to the price of the Leupolds . But I am trying to upscale my scope buying habits . I bought a Burris Fullfield II off of ebay & put it on a new Marlin .45-70 . Shot it once , briefly so far and so far I like it .

My biggest gripe on cheap scopes is repeatability . Ig I go six clicks up , it should not also go left or right .

Hope you get the scope working .

God bless
Wyr

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:11 pm

Scott,
For now that's my intension. As soon as the weather warms up a bit I'll take it to the range and give it a work out. If the scope works OK then all is well for now. And I'll leave it alone.

I will give a range report as soon as I can.

Considering I'm used to iron sights a three power scope will be like magic to me. God forbid I might even like it..........

Wyr,
I've been to the Simmons web site and one of the comments their warranty information makes is you need the purchase receipt. Well, since I received the rifle with the scope on it as a birthday present, I have no receipt. So my intentions were to try the rifle out and see what happens. Then pull the scope and send it in anyways. If they warranty it, great. If they don't

.

As Scott said, it just might work and then for the immediate future it will be OK.

My first priority is to get the barrel drilled and tapped for the iron sights. I simply will not own a rifle without irons. Scopes are great, but as this one shows they can fail. So iron sights are a must. I have the sights, now I just need a gunsmith I can afford to D&T it.

After that I will eventually purchase a new and better scope.

Joe

john4me05 · Post by **john4me05** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:51 pm

My money would be on losening that set screw a little bit (dont take much) and it will turn more freely... Dont back it out but i think the shank on that particular screw is just a little too long...

Buffboy · Post by **Buffboy** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:51 pm

john4me05 wrote:My money would be on losening that set screw a little bit (dont take much) and it will turn more freely... Dont back it out but i think the shank on that particular screw is just a little too long...

That might work if the screw is perchance long or was excessively tightened at some point by the previous owner. That screw holds the external power adjustment knob to the internal mechanism that changes the power of the scope. It's really no big deal if you remove it but if the scope is still sealed with nitrogen it might let that leak out and you'll get internal fogging. I've never taken one off of a simmons but I suspect they are like most others in that the o-rings sealing the scope are internal and the hole is blind. I can't say for sure though.

Tell you what, if you want, I have a simmons 3x9x40mm that I took off my 270 long ago. It works just fine if you don't mess with the power adjustment, if you do, it will shoot different POA at different powers(the reticle moves as you adjust the power). It comes back but what's the point of a big honkin variable if you can't change power in the field. I went with a compact Burris. Email me an address and it's yours.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:03 pm

Tell you what, if you want, I have a simmons 3x9x40mm that I took off my 270 long ago. It works just fine if you don't mess with the power adjustment, if you do, it will shoot different POA at different powers(the reticle moves as you adjust the power). It comes back but what's the point of a big honkin variable if you can't change power in the field. I went with a compact Burris. Email me an address and it's yours.

Buffboy,

I'll accept your offer. I couldn't find an email addy so I PM'd you my address.

Thanks a bunch.

Joe

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:06 pm

john4me05 wrote:My money would be on losening that set screw a little bit (dont take much) and it will turn more freely... Dont back it out but i think the shank on that particular screw is just a little too long...

John,
I'll consider doing that next time I get the rifle out. If it works I'll be tickled, if not Buffboys got me covered.

I'ma gonna bust me a bambi with this thing yet. Yep I shore is.

Joe

Buffboy · Post by **Buffboy** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:45 pm

J Miller wrote:
Tell you what, if you want, I have a simmons 3x9x40mm that I took off my 270 long ago. It works just fine if you don't mess with the power adjustment, if you do, it will shoot different POA at different powers(the reticle moves as you adjust the power). It comes back but what's the point of a big honkin variable if you can't change power in the field. I went with a compact Burris. Email me an address and it's yours.
Buffboy,

I'll accept your offer. I couldn't find an email addy so I PM'd you my address.

Thanks a bunch.

Joe

I sent an email back to you, I still have your addy unless it's changed in the last few months.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:40 pm

J Miller wrote: Considering I'm used to iron sights a three power scope will be like magic to me. God forbid I might even like it..........

Joe

*In slow-motion*
"nnnNoooooOOOOOOOOOOooo!"

As I dive to take the scope away at the last second, thus saving the day.

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:51 am

I remeber reading that . The deal with the receipt is one way they are using to get out of the warranty ?

If the scope is still in production , I can think of some ways to get around that , but would probably not be ethical .

God bless
wyr

Wyr,
I've been to the Simmons web site and one of the comments their warranty information makes is you need the purchase receipt. Well, since I received the rifle with the scope on it as a birthday present, I have no receipt. So my intentions were to try the rifle out and see what happens. Then pull the scope and send it in anyways. If they warranty it, great. If they don't

.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:38 pm

Wyr,

I don't think it is in production. I searched their site and did't find any mention of it.

Joe