45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

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45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#1 Post by KirkD » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:57 pm

I know that there has been some discussion regarding the use of the 45-70 for african game. I've found this posted in another forum http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 305.0.html: For those who don't want to sift through the numbers, it looks like in this test at least, the 45-70 spanks the 375 H&H. The 450 edges out the 45-70, but the 45-70 could be loaded with the exact same bullet and load to give the same ballistics. The 416 Taylor does come out on top. Now here's the excerpt written up by someone with the handle 'Gun Wizard' .....

******************************************************************************************************************
.375vs.416vs..450vs.45-70
« on: November 16, 2006, 02:17:22 PM » Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was originaly posted in the big bore rifle section but is appropriate here because of the bullets tested. It take a little while to move the data and the pics seem to be gone from the gallery so I will upload to photobucket and re-post them.

Here we go with the photos.
These are the competeting bullets.
The .416 partition was thrown in for reference.


The rifles. LTD-V and Whitworth Express rifle.



First up .375 H&H with 300fmj Hornady @ 2500fps
Penetration total inches----------27.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches---25.43ci
combined score-------------------52.43
retained weight-------------------298.2gr
general comment:
I expected the 300fmj to do well in the penetration test and it did. After passing thru the beef bone it bored a .375 diameter hole without disturbing the media around it. 13" into the media the bullet deflected and turned sideways for the last 10" but didn't disturb that much of the surrounding media. The hole thru the bone looked like it could have been drilled with very little splintering on the exit. Bone spray was isolated to the first two inches of the media face upon entry.

Next at bat 45-70 460cpb. @ 1850fps
Penetration total inches------------17.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches-----55.80ci
combined score---------------------72.80
retained weight----------------------330.7grs
I expected more inches of penetration with this bullet but was I was not prepared for the amount of damage done to the bone or media. Upon impact the whole front of the knuckle exploded tossing bone and rotting meat several feet from the holder. The whole front of the media was covered with the mess. The hole started at .458 and wound up at 3.00". This contraption I'm shooting at weighs around 500lbs and is braced with two 4x4s which are backed up to a tree 18" in diameter. The whole idea being that it wouldn't move upon impact. When the bullet hit the bone the whole thing shook enough to be visable. The bullet penetrated straight. The gas check came off and the nose of the bullet was deformed quite abit.



45-70 380gr Hawk at 1950fps
Penetration total inches-------------12.00"
Displaced matter cubic inches------61.98ci
combined score----------------------73.98"
retained weight-----------------------315.2grs
I had no idea what to expect as far as penetration but figured this bullet would displace the most matter. I was not ready for the impact damage on the bone that it produced. I intentionaly used the biggest bone (one was 1" larger than the rest) for this bullet. When the bullet hit it absolutely destroyed the bone. (pictures later ) The shock to the holder was nothing short of incredible. Bone meat and water went at least 15' into the air. Some of the meat was sprayed on the water tub sitting several feet from the bone. The wound channel was visible from the shooting location. Upon disassembly of the media I expected to find the bullet in several pieces after the violent impact. Much to my surprise I pulled the bullet out in one piece. Bone spray into the media was enough to cause huge trauma to any soft tissue behind it. In short this bullet did exactly what it was designed to do. It will be interesting to see what happens at 2200fps from the #1.




Next up will be the 300gr A-frame at 2500fps from the .375 H&H. I have it in my mind that it will penetrate a little deeper than the 380gr .458 bullet but will not displace as much matter.

So far all of these bullets would have killed a cape buffalo. The 380gr would be my choice on a broad side shot. Comparing the 300fmj to the 460gr is complicated to say the least. In real life I know that the 460gr has shot completely thru cape buff as well as the 300gr fmj. I would probably lean toward the 460 for its mamoth amount of damage. The 300 A-Frame should make a good showing. I know they have been used on buff with good results. Just my way of thinking that 300gr fmj leaving such a small channel and drilling the bone instead of breaking it makes me a little skitish of it except on a desperation shot on a wounded buff heading for the brush.
I am probably going to throw a 550gr Crater from the .450 into the mix. It should make a very good showing also. It is a well constructed bullet and seems plenty hard for big bones. reflex264

Just got done with the math on the A-Frame. Here are the results.

.375 H&H , 300gr Swift A-Frame at 2500fps
Penetrtion total inches----------------12"
Dispaced matter cubic inches--------33.97ci
combined score------------------------45.97
retained weight------------------------253.4grs

comments:
I went into this load expecting more penetration than I got. Already knowing that the load I used has performed well in the field however makes this a great benchmark to evaluate the other loads. The bullet tore up nearly as much bone as the 380gr Hawk but do to hitting the bone about an inch from where I meant to it snapped the smaller section of bone in half. The bullet however did something I didn't expect. The initial wound channel was very good. There is no doubt a critter hit with it thru the leg bone would have very good damage to the lungs. The bone spray was very good with a few larger pieces of bone penetraing into the media. The wound channel reached a crescendo at 5" into the media and as the bullet decelarated the channel spread for the last 2.5" was more ripped than exploded. When we removed the bullet I noticed the core was gone at the back of the bullet. I looked the bullet over very good knowing that the core shouldn't have came out the back of the jacket. It was when I gave a closer look at the front of the bullet that I realized what happened. The core from the back of the bullet actually came thru the partition and was now part of the nose. The jacket peeled from one side and folded down the other side of the bullet. I will post pictures in a few minutes to show it. I certainly don't consider this a failure. These are big bones, maybe bigger than 90% of the buffalo bone they would encounter. The bullet did sufficient damage to kill just about anything.




Well thanks to some enterprizing coyotes I am missing some bones I left out last night. I already called the meat man to get some more.





This was an overview after the test:




I have been looking at the data and trying to come up with an index from the results. So far it has eluded me. Golsovia had a very good comment that bears repeating if not word for word close. The .375 rises and shines when the distance gets to be 200 yards +. That is just good common sense. My thoughts on the 460gr load at 1850fps was to offer more power down range. I still think this is a good thing but still plan on slowing it down a bit.
If initiating a conflict with a cape or water buffalo at the normal ranges at which they are engaged which load tested would I rather use? I have beat my brains out on this one. The one I can say for certain I wouldn't use for the first shot is the 300gr fmj. I am sure that there are few better choices to send thru the nose on an oncoming buff but from the info I can gather all PH's prefer the same shot for the first shot. One third up the body from the backside of the front leg. When looking at the anatomy charts on these big critters the knuckle which the 300gr A-Frame, 380gr Hawk and 460gr CPB all destroyed is located below that point. The joining bone closest to the desired impact area is approximatly 3" in diameter and has a wall thickness of 1"(actually measured on a cape buff). I can't see that bone being any tougher than the 4" to 5" knuckles I used.
The 300 A-Frame, 460CPB and 380 Hawk all would have broke this bone and by the looks of the fragmentation of bone would have left a major wound thru the lungs and cut the large arteries at the top of the heart. One of the gents I have discussed water buff hunting with guides cape buff hunts in Africa. He said the water buff with its larger body once wounded was as hard or harder to put down than its African cousin. He also said if hit good with the first shot it was easier to put down than the cape buff. I know it's beating a dead horse but I think it all comes down to Jayco's signiture, "A good bullet in the right place".
I am going to think about what constitutes a bullet failure also. The A-Frame actually did a good job despite the fact that its nose broke over instead of making a pretty mushroom. The rear core came thru the partition to the front of the bullet but did it really hurt anything? The bullet still weighed 253.4grs and was very solid. It still penetrated some very stiff media and sent bone fragments out like little missles. I guess I'd like to know more from people that have used this bullet on buff.
The Hawk won the overall score (penetration + CI wound volume) and managed to send bone not only thru the media but chunks into the air and a visible punch to the artificial buff. The bullet came out intact but I have since pulled it apart to see what made it tick. The jacket on this bullet is pure copper and tough instead of brittle. I have been playing with it for a year and already figured out that it was good. The wound channel was huge to say the least. There are several reasons for this. The bullet did exactly what Andy told me it would do. The soft but tough bullet upon impact is supposed to conform to the bone then push the bone straight back. Near as I can tell that is exactly what happened. The bullet then hit the media with a very large frontal area causing the massive wound.
Which one won? Personaly I think that the 380gr Hawk out to 150 Yards would be the winner. Past 150 yards the A-Frame would get the nod. Is that a political answer or what? Either of these bullets would do the job and I guess thats all that really matters. Just my thoughts. reflex264

The .450 added later:



Now the numbers.

405gr Magnus
penetration-24"
wound volume-42.54
combined score-66.54

420gr Crater Lite
penetration-28"
wound volume-63.31
combined score-91.31

460gr CPB
penetration-31"
wound volume-61.61
combined score-92.61

550gr Crater
penetration-41"
wound volume-44.36
combined score-88.36

.416 Nosler Partition fired from the .416 Taylor at 2400fps


Retained weight: 323.9grs
depth of penitration: 29"
matter displaced: 64ci
combined score: 93

Notes:
This was the most impressive showing yet. Upon entering the media the channel opened quickly making the first part of the damage a huge cone shaped cavern that reached a crescendo of 5" then as the bullet slowed down a very straight channel until the bullet stopped in the dry part of the media. The bullet appeared to have traveled nose forward until about the last 2".
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#2 Post by Rusty » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:27 pm

The data looks interesting but I think he's comparing apples to oranges. IMHO on paper you can prove about anything you want to if you have an agenda.

Thanks Kirk for importing that. FWIW when I was at Gander Mtn the other day picking out my .44 Handi Rifle they did have a CZ .375 H&H. Tag price was $999. I didn't think that was too bad myself. but man talk about a long barrel, WOW!
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#3 Post by 86er » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:55 pm

I've shot a bunch of buffalo: Cape Buffalo, Water Buffalo, Yak, Bison with the 45-70. There are several good 400 gr expanding bullets that work more than sufficiently. I am a fan of the 405 gr Kodiak. With the 400gr Punch bullet I have shot Cape Buffalo, Water Buffalo and a Hippo. The bullets were up to the job all loaded at 2000 fps MV ( get 2006 fps average no matter how many times I check it). What makes a big difference, especially from a PH point of view is the action/rifle. A bolt or double rifle is overall more reliable for a number of mechanical reasons if you play the odds. From a clients perspective, a levergun is fine as the first shot is most important and will most likely be at an undisturbed animal or an alert animal that has not become defensive. Now if you load the 375 H&H with a 350 gr or better yet a 380 grain Rhino expanding bullet or Dzombo solid it becomes a different animal. The sectional density is extremely high, the bullet is extremely stable and the bullet is long and allows massive expansion. The 380gr should run around 2200-2250 fps. Rhino bullets form a big X when the petals expand. The penetration is my testing and the testing of others is 30% or more on top of what the 300 grain premium 375H&H is capable of. The gun I really want to put together is a 1886 takedown (Japanese) in 45-90. I would shoot 450 grain Northforks and Dzombo solids. The sectional density is just over .300 with 450 grain 458's. (It takes 440 grains in .458 diameter to get .300 sectional density) I can get the velocity in 45-90 to 2175 (22"). This should provide a significant advantage over 400 grain .458's at only 2000 fps. Additionally, it should keep up with any 458 Win Mag up to 500 grains and as much as the 380 gr 375H&H in penetration. This is a great post and a good study was done (on the other forum) with a detailed evaluation. I would like to see more work done in this area with heavy levergun projectiles compared to 375 H&H's and used on actual game. We are going to shoot some buffalo (CB and WB) soon for this purpose. I suspect there is not much measurable difference in the heavy 375's compared to the heavy levergun fired .458's. One thing I will say is that I have shot one too many buffalo, a Cape and a Water, with cast bullets. They will kill the animal no doubt, but the bullets do not retain a lot of weight and the fronts smear down rapidly. They are also prone to breaking and turning. I don't care what Lupo did or anyone else. I agree they will work but i don't think a cast bullet should be considered by a PH or after the first shot where Stopping may be the most important objective. The Punch and other monolithic or mated solids are the way to go for that.

Thanks for sharing the link and information - I enjoyed it and will refer to it again.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#4 Post by Mike Rintoul » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:05 pm

The information is pretty consistent with what we have found and continue to research. Joe makes some good -long winded- points. I am making custom bullets with Northfork for dangerous and large game that will each have a sectional density of .340 with the weight being whatever it takes to get to that point. It looks like our 375's will be 370 grain and we are working on a .458 that is 450 gr but short enough to load and cycle in an 1886 action. I have found that from 1800-2300 fps the sectional density is the dominating factor in penetration (overall) and a straight line course. If you run a slower velocity you must make up for it with significant bullet weight (over 500gr in .458) and 350 gr in 375H&H. This information coming from a very well thought out backyard test seems to support these findings. While nothing can compare to a real animal, dead or alive, there isn't enough of them lying around and it is a bit cost prohibitive to extensive testing. One additional comment: The wide metplat broad shouldered solids like the Punch, Nosler Solid, Dzombo and some caliber Barnes Banded Solids are so effective and efficient that you CAN get away with a little less weight and S.D. as long as the velocity is over 1800 and up to around 2300 fps.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#5 Post by crs » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:51 pm

Amazing what we gun nuts like to read! :D
Mike, I am interested in your results with the Northfork 450 in the .45-70 or 45-90.
I have some all copper NF 450s that will run through an 1886 actiion. Also have some FMJ 450 Kodiaks for the same purpose.
Please remember to let us know how your testing works out and what you recommend and can load up.

Kirk:
Thanks for making this interesting post.

86er;
I can let you use my Miroku 1886 .45-90 to test fire your loads if you like and save you the trouble of buying a new rifle. Course, you might want to leave me a few of your better loads to shoot when you are through. :D
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#6 Post by madman4570 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:50 pm

86er,

Other forums such as greybeards there is a thread on 45-70 vs 416 Rigby.
One of the responders I believe JJHACK (which is a PHG in Africa)seems like
his feeling is the 45-70 really is not up to the task for Buffalo etc.

He talks about only being able to use cast bullets and the hot weather not being able to
use solids/FMJ etc.
I would really value your expertize on this.
Would there be a problem say using a punch bullet at say 2000-2150fps in Africa?
I know the 416 Rigby is more powerful and wont debate that but wonder about his response.
Thanks!!

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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#7 Post by 86er » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:31 pm

I've used my 45-70 in Africa twice, one for plains game and once as a back-up to clients on dangerous game. The 405 Kodiak and 405 Punch bullets run 2006 fps average out of my 22" barrel. I don't see any problem using it in Africa if you are a client. All the plains game I shot were one shot kills with none going more than a few yards after being hit with Kodiaks. I used it as a back-up to clients shooting dangerous game including buffalo and hippo with Punch bullets. TX has a very similar climate to Africa from May-Sept.. I've use my 45-70 in TX on buffalo including WB and CB/WB hybrids. I use a Kodiak for the first shot and a Punch thereafter. I used it to stop two genuine charges, one with a frontal shot and the other a brain shot. Both temporarily haulted the animal and gave me time to put a Punch bullet in there, sealing the deal. These animals fell within 10 feet of me. There is a knack to waiting until the animal is literally right in front of you before shooting and side-stepping. It tries your nerves, but I've been determined to win the battle by doing it that way. When Piller's buffalo decided to charge it was 35 feet away and only covered about 2 or 3 bounds toward us before it was knocked back down by a barrage of 480 Ruger, 45-70 Punch and 500 Linebaugh. I never felt threatened or undergunned on that one under the circumstances and don't include it as a charge that was ever a real danger. To answer your question more directly, I think the 45-70 will do fine in Africa for a client on plains game out to 175 yds and buffalo up to 100-120 yards with excellent 405 grain bullets like the Kodiak, Punch, Northfork, etc. However, I don't think it is enough for a PH's job and I don't think the rifles thus chambered are the best choice for the job. The 375 H&H is perfectly adequate for buffalo with 300 gr bullets for a client, but most PH's will carry something bigger for their job and if a 375 is chosen it is likely to be filled with 350 or 380 grain bullets that solve problems much faster than the 300's.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#8 Post by madman4570 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:47 pm

86er,

What you say makes perfect sense.You must have nerves of titanium.
I feel so lucky to get this real time vast knowledge that you have gotten
with your REAL LIFE experiences.To take your valueable time out to answer
all the questions you get, you are to be commended and thanked.
When a few of my pals and I get ready for our Africa trek,you will be first
on our list to PH for us.I would love to meet you in person.
PS-I did not realize the 375 H&H shot 380 grainers.Man that would be a great load.

SINCERELY-------THANK YOU SO MUCH !!

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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#9 Post by Bigahh » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:27 am

Interesting stuff,thanks for posting it Kirk!

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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#10 Post by Rimfire McNutjob » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:40 pm

86er wrote:... The gun I really want to put together is a 1886 takedown (Japanese) in 45-90. I would shoot 450 grain Northforks and Dzombo solids. The sectional density is just over .300 with 450 grain 458's. (It takes 440 grains in .458 diameter to get .300 sectional density) I can get the velocity in 45-90 to 2175 (22"). This should provide a significant advantage over 400 grain .458's at only 2000 fps. ...
What load, pray tell, will push a 450gr JSP from a 45-90 to 2175 from a 22" barrel? I assume you're talking about the NorthFork 458-450SS and not the cupped solid.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#11 Post by 86er » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:08 pm

With the Alaska Bullet Works Solid, 450 gr .458 you can get 2125 fps with H322 and a magnum primer. Actually, when I calculated it the Northfork 450 gr's were a little too long, taking up too much case capacity, to get 2100 fps. However, Mike Rintoul at Grizzly assures me he can accomplish it with his commercial powder blend and still have the same or less pressure than the H322 load (which is around 50,000).
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#12 Post by crs » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:12 pm

Rinfire;
here are the two 450 gr .458 bullets 86er wrote of:
Image
NF 450 FPS on left and Kodiak 450 FP-FMJ on right.
Both can be loaded to work in the 1886 action, which should handle the 50,000 psi OK. It has been done before.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#13 Post by Rimfire McNutjob » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:41 pm

Great ... now I've got to go get a pound of H322. :twisted:

I was thinking you might be using BL-C(2) ... which I happen to have handy.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#14 Post by piller » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:05 pm

Keep these types of posts coming Gentlemen. I am learning a lot from Y'All. By the way, 86er may not have fealt threatened when we took that WB, but I was pretty nervous. In my defense, that was my first time ever taking something that big.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#15 Post by crs » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:04 pm

Joe and / or Mike;
Using the .45-90, If you can get the Kodiak 450 grain .458 up to 2125 fps with H322 without exceeding 50,000 psi and Mike can get the 450 grain NF up to 2100 fps with his commercial powder, then what FPS can Mike reach with the Kodiak 450 at the same 50,000 psi using his commercial powder and loading techniques? :?:

PS If that was hard to follow, try reading it backwards. :)
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#16 Post by 86er » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:09 pm

Mike can get 2200 fps with the same or a little less pressure.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#17 Post by Rimfire McNutjob » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:21 am

I really need to get a Ruger #1 with a round barrel built for pressure testing. My 1/2 and 1/2 barrel is the only thing keeping me from buying one of those pressure tracking rigs. I would love to know what's going on inside with one of those tools.
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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#18 Post by SJPrice » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:45 am

86er,

A few questions if you do not mind. First, who would you consider for the takedown conversion of your 1886 and why? Would you prefer the Browning or the Winchester version and why? And finally if you could choose between an 1886 SRC or an 1886 Rifle, both of them Browning Hi-Grades which would you convert and why? I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

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Re: 45-70 vs 375 H&H vs 450 vs 416 Taylor

#19 Post by 86er » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:05 am

I'd start with a USRAC (Miroku) rifle. The reason is that the Brownings had short throats during some of the production. The Winchester marked rifles have not had such pronounced issues with that. I think the 26" barrel rifle is a little too long, but the weight and length help the recoil and muzzle jump. If time and money are not a concern I would consider having the barrel and tube reduced to 23" in length. You can still get the velocity to compare with a 450 N.E. (.458 dia 480 grain at 2125 fps) with the 450 gr at 2100 fps. It also balances the rifle a little better. A pistol grip is a good idea. It is more common to short stroke the lever with a straight grip. The pistol grip also provides more surface area for recoil absorbtion. This rifle would have to be a full octagon barrel for weight and strength. The 22" EL round barrel is too light. I think an express sight, large aperature peep sight or heavy duty single standing leaf is essential on the back sight. An ivory bead or a fiber optic on the front sight, preferably on a ramp. A good KickEez recoil pad on the rear. If the rifle were not a take-down, I would have Turnbull do the conversion. They have done the most and they have the technique perfected with a fast turn around time. $800 for the TD conversion.
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"Worldwide Hunting Adventures"

Professional Hunters Assoc of South Africa
SCI - Life Member
NRA - Life Member
NAHC - Trophy Life Member
DWWC - Member

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