Spittin' 92's!!

[Glenn]

Just because that's the ways things fell together, I've only had Marlin leverguns until recently. I picked up a Rossi '92 copy in .45 Colt a little while ago and since the indoor range I belong to (3.5 miles from home) has a velocity limit of 800 fps (it's a Bullseye pistol club mostly) I loaded up some really light loads to shoot in the '92 until I could get to the outdoor range (35 miles, 4 gallons of gas round trip). I quickly discovered that if these light loads didn't cause the case to seal the chamber, I got a shot of gas and powder in the forehead every shot. No damage done, but annoying. Some old ball powder (HS-5) was the worst. Shooting a heavy bullet (315 grs.) helped considerably.

Seems you cowboy action shooters like the '92 and also like light loads. So what's the secret to light loads without spitting?

Glenn

[Griff]

Annealing case mouths; or... not such light loads.

[trapdoor]

I gave up on a 45 colt winchester model 73 same problem fouling back in action, filthy cases and action. Impossible to use Black powder reloads, what a mess.
45 colt a straight case no taper does not seal chamber has blowback. Not a great choice in a rifle.

[kimwcook]

Annealing case mouths; or... not such light loads.

An excellent place to start. With either hard brass or light loads the case can't expand and seal the chamber preventing blowback. As Griff stated, annealing the cases to soften them and/or higher pressure loads should solve the problem.

[Griff]

In furtherance to my short answer above, let me elaborate: HS-5 is about #33 on the burn rate chart I use (Reload Bench Burn Rate Chart). May I suggest that faster powders are more likely provide the necessary expansion, even with light charges. I like RedDot (#10) and Clays (#16) for my light cowboy action loads. I've also played around with Titewad (#3) and Bullseye (#6), but... like the slightly higher loading volume that RedDot gives. I also suggest a good heavy roll crimp, fully seated in the crimp groove. I still get a little powder residue, but nothing like the blowback that you're describing. Also, given the rate of fire of some cowboy action shooters, any slower powder is likely to still be burning as the actions is cycled for the next round... I find this is the issue with my BP loads vs. not sealing the chamber. For instance, during accuracy firing, I will shoot, then before opening the action on my '73, I lean over and look thru the spotting scope; then open the action and extract the spent shell. The amount of BP fouling after a bench session is ALWAYS far less than after a stage of action shooting. Now, whether I'm getting a "puff" of smoke outta the chamber when fired, as would be indicative of an inadequately sealed chamber... frankly, I don't know. I haven't observed this, nor has it been pointed out by anyone else that has watched... That could be that no one has paid any attention, I'm certainly focused on other aspects of my shooting. So I tend to discount claims that huge amounts of fouling are proof that .45Colt is an unacceptable caliber in levers. Some I could attribute to variances in chamber sizes (I could simply be lucky and have a tight one), some I also attribute to expectations. I expect a fair amount of fouling from BP loads, having shot BP in muzzle loaders, C&B revolvers and cartridge revolvers. all of which have fouling issues.

Also... and this is just precautionary, you might check the headspace in that rifle. If used, you never know just what some other yahoo used for loadings... and while the Rossi '92 can take some hefty loads, some might overdo it a bit. If new... well, let's just say that assembly on Mondays and Fridays can apply to more than autos!

[Chuck 100 yd]

Well said Griff!

[Glenn]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. The rifle was purchased new, so should be OK. Red Dot did better than HS-5, and is what I like to shoot in the Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt, but these loads were lighter to keep rifle velocities down. Cases were new or once fired Remingon nickel plated, primers WLP. I think I'll just load standard 45 Colt loads and not worry about shooting it indoors. I don't plan to hot-rod this one with the steel butt plate ! I have a 44 Mag. with a rubber butt plate for that.
Glenn

[Griff]

Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.

[Glenn]

Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.

Yeah, I'm not crazy about nickel cases, but thought it would be a good way to keep my 44 and 45 cases separate. Oh well.
Glenn

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Neck size only, more crimp, anneal the brass, use blown out 44-40 brass, heavier bullet, all good advice. Use softer brass like winchester and yes stay away from nickeled. Changing powder and bumping it up some works too.
I believe the primary reason IMR came out with the Trail Boss powder is because of all the problems CAS folks have had with the CAS rifles and down loaded 45lc ammo. Trail Bossi is actually 1/2lb of powder in a 1lb can. This is because it has a lot of filler in it to take up case volume. It looks like little donuts. But it dissapates instantly when ignited. You get a really fast pressure spike to swell the case but not much volume of powder to sustain the pressure so by the time the bullet starts to move the pressure spike has dropped enough that the velocity is low. Just about any powder will do just fine for pistol ammo but because the rifles all have generous chambers to help facilitate cycling ammo through them the down loaded 45's usually don't obtrude or swell the brass enough to seal the chamber so you get those smutty brass cases from the blow-by. If you use a heavy gr bullet and a heavy crimp and bump it up some you probably don’t need TB for your rifle but the folks that use the down loaded 200’s for the rifle Trail boss is the way to go. Once you find a 200 gr load for your rifle using TB you may find it has a bit more recoil in the pistols. But because the pistols generally have tighter chambers another powder like Titegroup will work with less recoil and still seal well in the pistols.

Take a look at the cart. and chamber dimensions below and the notes. the Case can be sized as small as .474. (.480-.006) but notice the chambers. They can be as large as .4902 near the rear( .4862+.004).

I'm not sure why there is such a discrepancy but I think it has to do with the old balloon cases and the larger bullets used in the period. Notice the bullets can be as large as .456. Most folks now days load no bigger than .454's. It's possible the case dimensions shown are for balloon cases. I see no rebated rim like modern brass.
All of these factor make sealing the 45lc rifles a bit of a challenge

[Lefty Dude]

A tight roll crimp and a 250 gr. slug will do the job.
You might also try a soft cast bullet, .002" over bore groove diameter for a 200 gr.
If you blow out 44-40 cases you will most likely need a 44-40 shell holder, the 44-40 rim diameter is larger than the 45LC. If you have a tight rifle bolt & extractor you may have extraction case problems by using the 44-40 cases in a 45LC. Try a sample first before loading a few hundred.

Or....... sell it and buy a 44-40, no spitting allowed and you can shoot reduced loads. My CAS 44-40 match loads W/ 200 gr. Desperado 20/1 soft cast bullet & 4.4 gr. of Alliant American Select does about 869 FPS & a SD of 10 out of my Uberti 73 19" carbine & 849FPS with a SD of 29, in 92 Rossi 20 " carbine.

[Glenn]

Thanks for all the info Nate! I think most of the bullets I shot were .452", as that's the size they drop from the mould (Lyman 452664). The 315 grain slug was .453",and shot the cleanest, mostly because of the additional weight, I'd guess. I do have some plain brass cases; I should reserve them for the Rossi. I have quite a few powders to choose from now, so don't really want to add more to the shelf. Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot, Tight Group, Rex 0 and 1, WW231, 700X and probably some I've forgotten about. I've heard good things about Trail Boss, so I might have to break down and try some. However, for my "outdoor" loads I will use standard full loads suitable for the SAA, so case sealing probably won't be much of a problem.
Thanks again for all the info!
Glenn

[Glenn]

Lefty,
I probably did skimp on the crimp, as I tend to use as little as necessary to extend brass life. I'll firm it up next time. I haven't even slugged the bore yet; guess I ought to.
Glenn

[awp101]

Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.

Is this true across the board or just in certain cases (no pun intended... )? I'm curious because IIRC the .38 Super factory loads I've been shooting are nickle cases and I've been saving them to reload someday.

[Griff]

Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.

Is this true across the board or just in certain cases (no pun intended... )? I'm curious because IIRC the .38 Super factory loads I've been shooting are nickle cases and I've been saving them to reload someday.

Yes, I believe it's pretty much the case across the board. Although I have some nickel .38Spl. cases that have been reloaded so much that the nickel is pretty much worn off. But, they've only had light loads in them and they've been used in pistols only.

[awp101]

Thanks Griff!

[Travis Morgan]

Try using trailboss. I believe you'll get the results you seek.