Powder Throwers - Questions

[86er]

I have two powder throwers, a Lee and a Redding. The Lee is mostly plastic throughout - The Redding is all metal except the glass canister. Anyway, both of them throw +/- 1 grain max no matter what I do. I threw 10 charges with each with 4895. I weighed each charge. They varied by .6 grains with .4 high max, most slightly low. I repeated 10 charges from each and weighed them using 4350. The Lee actually was closer with a .4 variance but the Redding threw +/- .6 average again. So the questions are:

1) Is this common place with powder throwers?
2) Can anything be done to cut down the variance?
3) How much effect does +/- 1.0 grain have on accuracy?
4) Does anyone have a Make/Model thrower that is spot on nearly all the time?

Any other info is appreciated.

[stretch]

I have a Lyman I bought used that stays pretty consistent with 2400 and 231.

The Lee measure on my Pro1000 press seems spot-on with 231.

The Dillon measure on my Square Deal will drive me to drink. That varies a
tenth or two. I adjust it, it's okay for 10 rounds or so, then it changes. Repeat
ad nauseum. I've tried everything to get that thing to stay consistent - well,
everything except what works! Maybe Feng Shui or strategically placed chicken
entrails or something will do it. I'm open to suggestions. It's not horrible -
just off enough to annoy me.

Stick powders can be harder to meter than ball or flake. I'm happy with plus or minus
a tenth - especially in rifle cases. Pistol - I'm fussy.

Are you doing everything consistently every time? Moving levers at the same speed and
with the same force? Not jiggling the bench or measure? It might be your procedure.
I'd look there first. No? I don't know - but there are plenty of folks smarter than me
on this forum.

[1886]

Many if not all benchrest guys do not weight their charges. They throw them. I have not been at a match in sometime but many guys used the Jones and the Culver. For our purposes, the Redding would be my choice but you would be well served by most brands. You already tested two and received more than acceptable results. Technique consistency is the key. I have two Reddings and love them. Powder granule size is a factor with spherical and small granule sized powder being the most forgiving. With enough reps. you will learn to "feel" a good throw from a bad. 1886.

[J Miller]

Joe,

I have a Redding #3 powder measure and here is my answers to your questions:

1) Is this common place with powder throwers?
From my experience, yes.
2) Can anything be done to cut down the variance?
Not that I'm aware of. Some guys have a system of banging the lever on the up and down stroke that they say minimizes the variations. It never worked for me.
3) How much effect does +/- 1.0 grain have on accuracy?
In my rifles not so much, but they are not scope sighted target or hunting rifles. Most are mil surp and lever actions. But depending on the load, say if you load near max charges, that one grain variation might cause pressure spikes.
4) Does anyone have a Make/Model thrower that is spot on nearly all the time?
I don't know.

For the most part this problem with extruded powder is what caused me to switch to ball rifle powders. It was either that or weigh every charge. That gets old quick.
Even flake pistol powders like Unique, 800X, Herco, and some others are a big PITA to throw consistently.

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

I have an RCBS powder measure that throw a very consistant charge with all types of powder. The secret to volume dispensers is to be very consistant on you approach method of dispensing the drop. Do it the same every time. I bump the handle throw twice at the up stroke and twice in the down stroke on the charge delivery.

Also for the Dillon powder measure, buy a fish tank aerator pump at WalMart for $4.99 and strap it to the plastic hopper and your varied drop problems will go away. I drop charges with the small bar on my SDB press as low as 3.2 grains of American Select a flake powder and it drops a consistant charge. The little hummer will smooth out those inconsistanties for ya.
Also install a extra powder baffle in the hopper. See below;

http://www.uniquetek.com

[Tycer]

I've shot thrown and weighed without change in group size. I load for accuracy and that's rarely max velocity, so half a grain heavy is no worry for URD (Unexpected Rapid Disassembly).

[JohndeFresno]

I have an RCBS powder measure that throw a very consistant charge with all types of powder. The secret to volume dispensers is to be very consistant on you approach method of dispensing the drop. Do it the same every time. I bump the handle throw twice at the up stroke and twice in the down stroke on the charge delivery.

Same here for the RCBS Uniflow measure, although I just tap it twice at the upstroke, and measure approximately every 10th round just to make double sure that something hasn't gone wrong. If I'm using a powder that presents problems (like getting stuck and requiring more force to shear it - I guess that's called the "extruded" powders) - then I measure it more, and discard any load that isn't a smooth throw. If I show problems (as with Red Dot and other ultra fine powders), I go to the Lee Dipper and weigh each load. Thankfully, almost all the powders I use measure nearly perfectly in my particular RCBS measuring device.

When in doubt, dump the load and weigh it!

[AJMD429]

I have two powder throwers, a Lee and a Redding.

Which model Lee is it? I think they changed the design a couple of years ago (and supposedly of course the new one is better).

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have both the RCBS Uniflow and the Redding #3 BR. The Redding is newer and has a better system of adjustment of the drum but otherwise works the same.
I throw into the scale pan and dribble up to exact charge if high accuracy is the goal and large or long grain tubular powders are being used.
With ball or similar powders that meter well I just throw into the case and seat the bullets after a visual inspection to make sure the are all alike.
What was the amount you were droping? If throwing 100gr. , 1 gr. is only 1% if throwing 2.5gr. then 1.0 gr would be a BUNCH!!

[JustaJeepGuy]

Does anyone use the Lyman 1200 DPS 3 Digital Powder Scale and Dispenser System? I haven't, but I would--if I had the bucks for it. It supposedly is accurate to +/- 1/10 gr., and all you do is push a button to dispense. No holding your tongue right, no two knocks here/one there, and no dip-and-weigh (like me!). Of course, you do need electricity....

[JDL]

The Belding & Mull is the only one I have used that meters flake powders such as Bullseye or stick powders such as 4895 within one tenth of a grain and ball powders are always spot on. Fluffy flake powders, think Unique, will vary as much as .3 grain. It is a bit slower than the rotating type measuers but, the accuracy is worth it. My first was a Redding #3 that I used for a few years but, it was retired after I found the B&M at a gun show and hasn't done much for 20 or so years. They can still be found and they can't be beat.
JDL

[1886]

Please tell us more of the B&M thrower. I am unfamiliar with it. I have always been happy with my Redding BR-3 and have not really looked elsewhere. Thanks, 1886.

[rost495]

I've never used a Belding and Mull. I've also never used one that is perfect. But have been through Jones, Lyman,Redding,Harrel, Lee, RCBS and a few others I can't recall.

A few things. For cheap but amazing with large stick powders, the Lee is pretty amazing, but a cheap plastic thing, of course for 20 bucks you can have a couple laying around, just like their handprime tools, cheap junk but works, I think I've probably sent mine in for parts at least 10 times or more for broken parts.

Wrap a sheet of anti static dryer sheet around your hopper. Make sure the hopper is baffled. Make marks on it and keep it full to the middle third of the hopper, not above or below. Hope your measure end is like a test tube, concave instead of like a rain gauge, flat. I have a Dillon bar custom made and that has always helped. Be consistent with your method and that can vary anywhere from no taps to one at top, two at bottom, two both sides, one both side and so on.

Will a variation matter? As mentioned, BR folks dont' weight. I've shot probably closing in on half a million rounds in competition, I develop my loads via audette method or now called ladder for some reason. It finds a sweet spot in the harmonics, and allows larger variations to still not matter in group size.

I shot out to 1000 yards with irons, I'd happily load all my 300 and 200 yard ammo on a dillon without weighing. Just crank it out. IF I had time I got anal with my 300 for other reasons. I"d also lay down at 600 with no issues though I still prefered to weigh those. And even out to 800 thrown was ok, at 900 and 1000 I weighed it all. And actually paid attentino to ES and SD at those last 2 distances as they matter by then.

If you work it all right, you'll be just fine. For general work and 100-200 yards I'd never weigh a charge, dump it from whatever measure you have and go to town. In fact I run a couple of digital scales and find that the measures like my Harrel are often better than the scale as they'll throw close enough and all of a sudden seem off but if you reweight check the scale, its off zero....

Belding and Mull. I guess I need to keep and eye out, just for grins. I'm always open to new things.

Jeff

[arjunky]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =116821981

Here is a Belding. Basically the little tube on the left is adjustable and kind of its own drop tube.
They never have been cheap, but Rafter-7 has used one for years. I've tried it a few times too. I've had my Lyman 55 for over 25 years and usually only weigh for target loads.

Byron

[rost495]

Does anyone use the Lyman 1200 DPS 3 Digital Powder Scale and Dispenser System? I haven't, but I would--if I had the bucks for it. It supposedly is accurate to +/- 1/10 gr., and all you do is push a button to dispense. No holding your tongue right, no two knocks here/one there, and no dip-and-weigh (like me!). Of course, you do need electricity....

I missed this post, I have a very early version, as that was made by a few different companies, but all the same thing.

Does it throw correctly? Yes. But they are slow IMHO. quicker for me to throw light and trickle up if I'm that worried about it.

The only quick and accurate system is call prometheus if its still made. If I was still shooting I'd have bought one....

Jeff

[Blaine]

I'm only loading for big bore rifles and handguns, so I'm not seeing a difference between my Lee Perfect Powder measure and the Lee yellow plastic dippers. Not one bit, and the dippers are a HECK of a lot easier to use (no set up).

[Mike D.]

I must be a bit of a dummy, 'cause I can't get my powder measures to work worth a darn. I have both RCBS and Lee setups, and don't use either. The old Lee dippers do the job for me, with each charge individually weighed. Slow, but what the heck. I don't shoot CAS or SASS, so don't really need to load a thousand rounds per day.

[rost495]

I've used the dippers, but they are far from accurate. Get one under, weigh and trickle up. If just dipping.... be sure the method is good to settle the volume in each "dip"

[JohndeFresno]

I've used the dippers, but they are far from accurate. Get one under, weigh and trickle up. If just dipping.... be sure the method is good to settle the volume in each "dip"

With the Lee Dippers and with the Lee Auto Disk (which I use for some pistol loads), I find it handy to measure their output by weighing it for that day - because temperature, humidity and different lot numbers of powder can create variances from one session to the next.

For many loads (such as casual target shooting or plinking, and hunting at moderate distances), you can use either of these by finding a load and powder that work close to what kind of load you're looking for - like a handgun load of 9.1 grains instead of 9.3 grains of a certain powder. But then again, this is not for competitive target shooting or hunting at extended distances.

[Ben_Rumson]

I've got the Lyman 1200 DPS II and just recently upgraded it for faster delivery. The upgrade helps, but the original wasn't that slow. I really like it for max loads and dispensing small charges of BullsEye and no trouble with the stick powders anymore
After all my cases have been sized I determine a method I will use to load the rest of the ammo... Ya see it depends on how big the charge is, in other words how much time I have to perform some other operation to the ammo I'm making.. 38sp cases get sized, flared & primed before I dispense 3.1gr B.E. from the Lyman.. In the time it takes for it to dispense another charge I have time to pour the previous charge of powder in the case, advance the turret, then seat, advance the turret, then crimp and remove the completed round then put another case in the shell holder and advance the turret.
Now when I reload 44-40 I have barely enough time to prime a case, lay down the hand primer, pick up the funnel and place it over the case case mouth before the Lyman signals the 23.5gr ReLoder7 charge is weighed..I push the dispense button, place the charged case in the block, pick up another empty case, pick up the hand primer...
The only one I really have to wait for is 80 grains of IMR 4350 for my 50-70 but I haven't tried the upgrade on that one yet so there maybe hardly any waiting I hope.

[DerekR]

I have found that my Lyman, Lee and Dillon all are more consistant when I keep the hoppers full of powder.

[JDL]

From the pix that arjunky posted, the tube on the left (it's upsidedown) is the measure, which slides into the hole just above the mounting thumbscrew. The handle on the left is pushed away from you, the powder slide is moved over the measure and dropped, handle released, then you remove measuring tube, and put the charge into a case. The measure is adjusted by loosening the knurlled screw and sliding the inside part in the tube, mine is the micrometer type with numbered hash marks around the bottom. The full name is the B&M Visable Powder Measure because the powder can be seen through the glass window.
JDL

[roughcreek]

I am using a "JDS Quick Measure" from Johnson Design Specialists out of Spokane, WA. It is a bit expensive but I love its features. I have it mounted on my Dillon 550 loading pistol with Titegroup. It is spot on most of the time, Ocassionally it would be 0.1 gr. off, but I attributed that to my technnique. I am still new to it having only loaded about 500 rounds with it. I like being able to easily remove it from the 550 and change powder (and drop tube) and use it to individually charge 45-70, 30-30 (or whatever) in a loading block directly from the measure.
http://www.quick-measure.com/progadapter.htm

[marlinman93]

I loaded for 7-8 years using Lee dippers, and not only do they work well, they are extremely consistent. I wouldn't reccommend using them for max loadings, but if you find a load on the chart that is a good accurate midrange load, the Lee dippers will serve you as well as any powder measure ever made. It's virtually impossible to get much descrepancy with them, if you dip them and scrape them off level each time. If you're careless about leveling the dipper then you may get variances in charges, but still wont overcharge a case, unless you were pushing max loads already. I eventually went to powder measures 30 years ago, but that's just a natural progression we all seem to think we need to take!
I use a Lyman 55, a RCBS Uniflow, a couple of RCBS Little Dandy measures, an old Pacific (like the Little Dandy) and a Belding and Mull. All have their good points, and reasons I use them. The Little Dandy is fast and great for light plinker loads in pistol calibers. The 55 and Uniflow do fine for hunting loads. The Belding and Mull is for serious reloading. It will always beat the others in throwing accurate loads! -Vall

[86er]

Thanks for all the replies. I have the Lee Dippers and checked them out. They are okay but no more accurate than the throwers I have, so that didn't eliminate the problem. What I did find is that the Redding is sometimes trying to cut the long granular powder when the resevoir closes as I lift the handle. If I smack it on the side with a thick screwdriver handle the powder must settle because it doesn't hand up with that extra smack. Tha makes it more accurate. I can throw within .5 gr low, so for a very accurate and consistent load I threw load into a scale pan and trickled up to exact weight. If I were making some plinking loads I would be okay with the .5 variation. I will continue to mess with it to see what else I can do. Thanks again