Newby Help: I need a lever that can do it all!

[canuckjgc]

Hi folks, great site. I've searched many threads and my head is spinning. I need a lever gun that does it all:

1) Can shoot low/no recoil loads to train the youngsters
2) Can shoot heavy loads for hunting and bear defense in British Columbia's grizzly country (back country canoe trips with a family of 4)
3) Can be shot by 13 year old girl and up (so a shorter LOP I guess)
4) Lightweight for extended hiking/portaging
5) Reliable and doesn't absolutely require a smith for slicking-up

I'm stuck with mail-order as the local gun shops are too expensive. I've basically come down to these 2 guns:

1) Marlin 1894 .44mag
2) Puma 92 .454 Casul

However, I have some questions:

1) The Puma I'm looking at is brand new but without the safety, which means it is a few years old? Are the pre-safety pumas any worse?
2) No where in the Puma online manual (or elsewhere) does it say it can feed and shoot .45 Colt, though it seems many people do, though some claim feeding problems. Is it safe to feed factory .45 Colt through the Puma?
3) Is the PUMA ok without the slicking up?
4) Apparently the Marlin can't shoot much over 270gr accurately (I don't want to get a barrel re-done), which seems on the small side if we have to dispatch a bothersome large critter.

The Marlin is $550, the Puma $500 -- I have to buy within the next week or so to get those prices.

If anyone has any thought, I'd greatly appreciate it!

[Bruce]

I have no history at all with the bears (grizzly), so take this for what it is worth. Both guns are great designs, but I would lean towards the Marlin for a few reasons. One is that you can easily work on it and there are after market parts readily available. Number two is that the 13 year old can train with it using 44 Special rounds.

[Borregos]

I know nothing about the Puma, but I have a Marlin 94 in 44Mag and love it! Never tried anything over 240gr from it but it will swallow hot 240 gr loads with no problem and is accurate. Hope this helps. Should also say that you can load the 44Mag light for youngsters to start on.

[marlinman93]

I'm honestly not sure there is a gun that meets all your points, and pretty sure neither of those will. Even with the lightest loads these two lightweight guns will recoil enough to be uncomfortable to a youngster who is learning.

[O.S.O.K.]

The Marlin will cycle and shoot 44 Specials or you can load 44 brass down to 44 special levels - 200 grain bullets at 1000 fps out of the carbine will be very light.

I'd go with the Marlin too.

[Blaine]

If you want grizz protection and suitability for a 12 year old child, you're stuck with the child feeling some recoil. Seriously, you might want to consider a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun. More than enough for the bear and with cowboy loads not too bad for the kids due to the heavier weight of the gun.....

[Old Ironsights]

I'm with Blaine, though the .454 has the advantage of shooting the relatively cheap and mild .45 Colt Cowboy loads giving a much broader range of Commercially available Highs (.454 whompum) and lows (Cowboy) than the .44 - and the cowboy loads are cheaper than .44 Special.

SO, IMO, go with a Stainless Guide Gun or a Stainless Puma.

[rjohns94]

I'm with OI> if you choose the .454, you can download .45long colt for plinking, but neither are cheap to shoot.

[Rod WMG]

If I wanted griz relief, I'd want a stout loaded .45-70 over the choices you mention. If you handload you can use reduced loads for the kids (there's a "cat sneeze" .45-70 thread running now). And the stainless Guide Gun would be a plus for you, I'd think.

[Griff]

I'm trying to be polite here, so bear with me... it all sorta depends on the 13yo girl. If she's an 85 lb'r you got a problem with either the .454 Casull or the .44Mag; but if she's larger than average you probably won't have a problem with either .45Colt or .44Spl ammo.

In fact, I think you'll be more pleasantly surprised by a standard .45 Colt Rossi or Marlin than either the 454 Casull or a 44Mag carbine. 1 - reduced recoil; 2 - reduced cost of ammo.

[Old Ironsights]

Point of the .454 Rossi is to use it as a .45 Colt most of the time until you need to Whompum for bear...

But even then, there are some pretty hefty .45Colt +P+ loads for whomping if you don't want to go the .454 route...

I just wouldn't use them in a Square-bolt M1894...

[J Miller]

Mindset .....

If the girl knows the rifle is for defense against mean nasties and that she needs to know how to use it, then she will adapt to it.

Now, not all women are afraid of recoil. An example is my wife. She hates 38s but loves the fireball hot full house .357 mags out of a short barrel revolver. She doesn't want anything to do with my old Ruger .22 Auto, but prefers a 1911 with full ball loads.
She doesn't blink an eye about shooting my Trapper 30-30 with full factory equivalent loads either, and loves to shoot my .45 Colt Trapper.

So, start her on the lighter loads and work up, but let her decide.

For grizzly protection, I'd pick the rifle that was the most reliable, trouble free and had the most power in a easily carryable package. Oh, and one that ammo is available for everywhere. Only you can tell what's available in Canada.

Joe

[canuckjgc]

Thanks for the replies. If I went with the Puma .454, does it reliably cycle .45 Colt? Would it be ok without getting it worked on? I saw a lot of threads about getting work done to this gun, but wasn't sure if that was for CAS or whatnot. Are the lightest .45 Colt factory loads pretty low on recoil?

I looked at the cowboy loads for the 45-70 -- still pretty stiff, and the rifle is heavier too.

[Old Ironsights]

It should cycle .45 Colt just fine out of the box... just like the .357 cycles .38sp.

If it doesn't, then the fix should be simple enough for you to do, but contact Steve Young (www.stevesgunz.com) for a DVD and assistance.

Also, if you plan on reloading (you should regardless of gun) downloading the .454 is no big deal... and a bit more flexible than the .45-70.

Really, the .454 is far more flexible than the .44 in so many ways that IMO there really isn't a choice.

[canuckjgc]

Yeah I'm leaning that way -- .45 Colt for training, and the big .454 for in the field. Even if my girls can't train with the 454 rounds, at least they will be competent with the gun in the very unlikely event they have to use it in an emergency.

I'd be a lot more comfortable if Marlin made it, but I guess the quality of the Puma is decent enough....

It should cycle .45 Colt just fine out of the box... just like the .357 cycles .38sp.

If it doesn't, then the fix should be simple enough for you to do, but contact Steve Young (http://www.stevesgunz.com) for a DVD and assistance.

Also, if you plan on reloading (you should regardless of gun) downloading the .454 is no big deal... and a bit more flexible than the .45-70.

Really, the .454 is far more flexible than the .44 in so many ways that IMO there really isn't a choice.

[marlinman93]

You guys obviously didn't see #1!
"1) Can shoot low/no recoil loads to train the youngsters"

[canuckjgc]

Aren't the cowboy .45 Colt loads low recoil?

This is all new to me having only ever shot 30.06 bolt.

You guys obviously didn't see #1!
"1) Can shoot low/no recoil loads to train the youngsters"

[AJMD429]

I have seen web forums elsewhere where the firing of .45 Colt in .454 Casull Puma's was blamed for case separations and so on when shooting .454, presumably due to inadequate cleaning of the front of the chamber left fouled by the shorter brass of the .45 Colt. Why this doesn't occur in .38 Spl/.357 Mag guns, or the less common .44 Spl in .44 Mag situation, I don't know, if that is the cause. Some say it was bad guns/chambers, and I've not seen anything within the past year on the topic, so maybe someone 'solved' it and found the cause was something else.

Anyway, if you shoot short cases in ANY gun, before using it for long cases, I'd give the chamber a thorough scrubbing.

I'd probably go with the .454 Casull Puma if I really just could have the one gun, but having two (or three) power levels is really more practical. A .444 Marlin, .44 Magnum, and .22 LR would make a nice team!

Also - remember, if "cost" is a factor, the 'training' and 'camp' gun in .22 LR could be of similar design for familiarity purposes, but each time you pulled the trigger, you'd be spending about 25 cents to a dollar less than if you were always shooting the big gun. After a "brick" of 500 rounds of .22LR, you'd have saved more than enough to buy most .22 rifles.

[JustaJeepGuy]

I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag. I once tried to use .44 Specials in it. I used a 200-gr. JHP in the Spec. case, and it locked the action up because the cartridge OAL was too short. I had to disassemble the rifle to get the round out. I haven't tried Specials in it since. Whichever one you get, make SURE it will handle a short cartridge.

[Lastmohecken]

Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents worth in. First question is do you handload. If you do, you can down load about any round for mild recoil for a child.

Second, I am sorry if I step on any toes but I wouldn't trust my life to a Puma or a Marlin 1895 without some serious custom slicking up, because I have seen way too many stock factory examples jam.

A 45/70 guide gun would be a better choice if bear defense is part of the equasion. If you handloaded you could down load it with pillow ticking, etc and make some very friendly loads.

Or maybe get a Browning BLR in 358win, if you handload, as it can be down loaded with .357 mag bullets and turned into a very light recoiling gun, or handloaded up to a respectable bear repeller.

Maybe you should buy two rifles, a Marlin 94 in .357mag for the young shooter, and a 45/70 for the bear. Even in full house .357 mag, the little Marlin will be a very mild gun to shoot, and the .357 in the Marlin has always seemed to be much more reliable then the 44mag version, at least that has been my experience.

[canuckjgc]

Wow this is the first time I've heard about either jamming...that is a major concern no question about it.

I don't handload now but could easily do it I'm sure. Is the 45-70 "action" more reliable than the 1894? I don't know anything about the technical differences between them (I figured they were basically the same)

Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents worth in. First question is do you handload. If you do, you can down load about any round for mild recoil for a child.

Second, I am sorry if I step on any toes but I wouldn't trust my life to a Puma or a Marlin 1895 without some serious custom slicking up, because I have seen way too many stock factory examples jam.

A 45/70 guide gun would be a better choice if bear defense is part of the equasion. If you handloaded you could down load it with pillow ticking, etc and make some very friendly loads.

Or maybe get a Browning BLR in 358win, if you handload, as it can be down loaded with .357 mag bullets and turned into a very light recoiling gun, or handloaded up to a respectable bear repeller.

Maybe you should buy two rifles, a Marlin 94 in .357mag for the young shooter, and a 45/70 for the bear. Even in full house .357 mag, the little Marlin will be a very mild gun to shoot, and the .357 in the Marlin has always seemed to be much more reliable then the 44mag version, at least that has been my experience.

[canuckjgc]

What about just the .357 mag in Marlin (or Puma)? I know it is marginal for bear, but we'd be talking well under 50 yards, and I've seen some loads as high as 190gr which is surely equal to a 30-30? This way I wouldn't have to shoot shorter cartridges to get lower recoil -- just use the factory 150gr (or whatever).

The .357 is a light gun! Reliability is key, and I don't want to spend a couple hundred getting a new gun worked on.

[JustaJeepGuy]

I don't know anything about the technical differences between them (I figured they were basically the same)

No, they are entirely different actions. Look at them side-by-side and you'll see. As to reliability, I haven't seen a difference, but I haven't worked with the longer action all that much.

[Old Ironsights]

What about just the .357 mag in Marlin (or Puma)? I know it is marginal for bear, but we'd be talking well under 50 yards, and I've seen some loads as high as 190gr which is surely equal to a 30-30? This way I wouldn't have to shoot shorter cartridges to get lower recoil -- just use the factory 150gr (or whatever).

The .357 is a light gun! Reliability is key, and I don't want to spend a couple hundred getting a new gun worked on.

Now you're talking my game.

Yes, the .357 is absolutely "marginal" for bear... in the modern era.

The ballistics that a .357are capable of with modern powders/actions are truly amazing.

True, they don't have the absolute Whompum of a .45, but they will certainly do if you do your part.

NOTE: I would NOT recommend the .357 as an OH SHIEST! (gotta stop the bear NOW) gun.

BUT, I load my Rossi (NEF/Puma) .357 with a 180gr bullet at 1800FPS that is pretty well capable of anything - and probably more than Elmer Keith ever dreamed of.

On the Flip Side, I load .38s down to the point where they have ZERO recoil yet hit harder than any .22 - out to 25yds.

Would I pick the .357 in Alaska/YT? No. I'd go for the .454 and work with it.

But if you are not dealing with Brown/Griz/Polar type bears, and are not planning on shooting Moose, then the .357 is certainly a better "all around"/Small Person caliber.

[Old Ironsights]

...Second, I am sorry if I step on any toes but I wouldn't trust my life to a Puma or a Marlin 1895 without some serious custom slicking up, because I have seen way too many stock factory examples jam.

A 45/70 guide gun would be a better choice if bear defense is part of the equasion. If you handloaded you could down load it with pillow ticking, etc and make some very friendly loads.
...

Pedant time...

The Guide Gun IS an 1895. You must be talking about the 1894 / "dreaded Marlin Jam".

Of course, I've never had an issue with my Rossi, but then, I ordered it from Steve so it was tweaked before I touched it...

[PaulB]

"Do you reload" is indeed the question. Makes a lot of difference. Or, "do you know someone who reloads?"

A BLR in .358 is a great idea. Probably the most reliable feeder, right? And a lot of thump on the front end with little at the back end. And it could be very cheap to feed, with lead .357 bullets for practice.

I solve the problem of dirty front chambers by never shooting .38's in my .357s or .44 Specials in my .44 Mags. Just load the magnum caliber down to the same level...

[marlinman93]

If you don't reload, then I would suggest you buy two guns. One in a pistol caliber like the 454Casull, .460 or .500 S&W, and a rifle in say .22LR to train the kids. This way you can carry the pistol when needed and use something realistic for defensive needs. All this without reloading too.

[rjohns94]

Reloading is the key to ring versatility out of any firearm. I just received myEMF Rossi from Steve Young in .357 and I am very very happy with it. The 180 grainers that it is normally stoked are giving me very good results. Like OI said, I would not want it for the largest game up North, and certainly is not a preferred Brown Bear, Grizzly, or Moose gun. For those I would use my Wild West Gun in .457/45-70. On anything else from Squirrel to Black Bear, and anything short of a Moose or Bison, the .357/38 combo is an excellent ethical choice. If it was all I had, I would pick my shot and use it for a CNS shot on those two also. Of the choices you first presented, the .454 is still the best choice. Be sure to clean up the chamber after using .45 long colt ammo. If you could swing it, have Steve at Steve's Guns (he is a sponsor of this site) work it over for you. It will become a constant companion and favorite if you do.

[alnitak]

I'm going to go against the herd here, and recommend the .44. I have a Trapper, and shoot everything in it from downloaded cowboy loads in the .44mag case to Randy Garret Hammerheads that have taken every game in the world, including elephant. On the low end, .44 mag cases loaded to Special (or even lower pressure/velocity) levels with light bullets are almost as easy as .38's to shoot. The Hammerheads will thump, but they'll also thump a bear too. Reloading for .44 is cheaper than the .454 or .45 Colt, and factory ammo is a lot cheaper and easier to find.

[Coldfingers]

I would have to go with the .44 too. Simply because of your location in beutiful downtown BC.

Ammo (or components for relaoding) "may" pose an availability problem at times for the Colt/Casull rifle.

My LSI .454 feeds darn near everything flawlessly BUT...getting components at times is problematic. Handloading makes it very versitile.

Every village in AK has ammo for the 44 Mag on the shelf. I don't know how common pistol ammo is there in your part of Canada.

For your use, especially for canoe camping and plinking, a stainless Marlin in 44Mag might just be the berries. A blued version will require a tad more maintance

A simple reloading setup would allow you to make plinkers suitable for the kids (and teach them a valuable skill at the same time) or just use 44Spcl, they will toughen up in time.

Should you ever decide you need more thump, pick up a Marlin in .444 and you can still use some of your (44Mag) components to make ammo.

[new pig hunter]

I'm a fan of Marlin lever actions, so I'd recommend the Marlin.

On the subject of recoil, I use a Beartooth Recoil Pad and experience no shoulder pain whatsoever, whether it's .30-06 or .444 Marlin, no matter how many shots are taken at the practice bench. Any such product would surely help the young'uns to not shy away from shooting.

Cheers,

Carl

[JohndeFresno]

1) Consider taking up reloading! Even a Lee Loader will do it, one shell at a time, and it is ultra cheap. Then, you can load mild rounds to your heart's content.

2) I let my fingers do the walking via Google and found several posts from Puma 454 owners that talk about .45 Colt loads, so "yes" the 454 levergun by Puma will shoot .45's

3) Which leads us to the choice, between the two that you stated, of the much more powerful .454 Casull for grizzlies, although you CAN purchase some powerful .44 Mag rounds that would ALLEGEDLY stop a grizzly - from Garret(t) - their "Defender" 310 gr. monster. Given the nature of the beast, literally, I'd choose the .454 Casull.

4) The .454 Puma can then shoot mild .45 Colt "Cowboy" rounds. Winchester sells these, at some 750 fps if I remember correctly, at Midway and other suppliers at the present time. That isn't much recoil, even out of a levergun; but it makes a satisfying "boom" due to the large caliber. Or you can reload them, of course, in a number of ways.

5) As for me, I'd rely on a .45-70 Guide Gun to do the job on Mr. Fangs-and-Claws (that's why I bought one - just in case I ever get a dream hunt for a really big critter), and then load some really light rounds for a young shooter with IMR's Trail Boss. But any .45-70 round is pretty expensive to load, and the bulky, light recoiling Trail Boss powder is not as economical as most powders.

Or, better yet, if the cash is available, it's much cheaper to buy a 30-30 for around $300 AND a 45-70 for bear work. The 30-30 is cheaper to shoot and relatively mild, especially with cowboy rounds (also available). Somebody help me here with the name of the American company that just came out with a quality, low-priced 30-30 - I'm having a senior moment.

6) Bottom line - get at least the .454, not the .44, if you are even considering hunting the most ferocious animal on our continent. Tons of stuff has been written about the big brown brute being felled by the .44 Mag, .30-30, and lesser calibers; but not much has been written by those who failed with these lesser guns and are now part of the bear's diet.

[Coldfingers]

Bears open up the proverbial Can-O-Worms.

Mention "Grizzly" and most folks envision the 1200lb coastal brownie.

Most of us folks that dwell inland have to make do with the lighter weight versions. The common ones in my neighborhood have a hard time breaking the 500lb mark. Not that they are short on attitude by any means, but the mass of the critter just is not there like on the Brownies.

My personal experience over the years has been that I am much more likely to have a problem with Moose or 200 lb black bears. Two year old Grizzlies are the exception, they are much like teenage gang bangers and pretty fearless. A couple hunting seasons later, the survivors get quite reclusive. One of my favorite hunting spots has more Grizzly sign than any other critter yet I have only seen one in the last four years up there, and, if he had not been sleeping I probably would not have bumbled into him (or was I sleeping?).

I do admit that I give ANY grizz lots of room, and practice Bear Awareness when I step out the door (and Moose Awareness more often as they like to hang out in my driveway!)

I spend alot of time hunting birds and varmints along the river with the Marlin .357Mag. Simply from a standpoint of shot placement I figgure I have a better chance than if I was packing a handcannon.

My 45/70 was only in the field three days this year durring moose season.

Of course, once you get to rolling in the dirt with a large critter, any rifle, of any size, becomes pretty useless.

Take a walk through your local shops and see what ammo is avaliable (and check on components also if you plan to reload) That may swing your choice heavily in favor of one or the other.

Only other thing I could add to your confusion is that the Marlins are easier to put aftermarket sights on, and easier to clean from the breach end.

[piller]

I have a Puma and a Marlinn Guide Gun. Love em both. If you want to load the .45-70 way down, you do need to stuff something on top of the powder to keep it in place---and yes I have also used pillow ticking successfully. For even more fun, I have used cream of wheat to fill the case the rest of the way up, and it sure smells funny when you fire a round, sorta like burnt toast. I really want to get a Henry leveraction .22 and use the Aguilla quiet rounds in the back yard for target practice. That would be ideal for this city dweller.