Triple 4 Marlin wants a 45/70 Government

[Idiot]

I own a 444 Marlin and once owned a 45/70 Government. The 444 Marlin can drive a 355 grain hard cast WFN bullet at velocities sufficient to penetrate a couple elk from any angle. The 45/70 Government can drive the same type bullet weighing 425 grains at a velocity that can penetrate a couple elk and a refridgerator full of muk tuk. In real world practical terms, is one really any better than the other for use on large game, including big bears.

Now if the jury comes back that the 45/70 Government is absolutely superior to the Triple 4 and therefore must be obtained, is the Model 1886 any better than the 1895 Marlin in reliability and shootability (accuracy and ease of operation)?

Oh, one other thing. The chances of me ever hunting coastal grizzlies, or even tramping around in their backyard, is razor thin at best and will likely never happen. But the chance of hammering an elk and tripping over a black bear cub while pursuing that elk is likely.

I mostly shoot rocks, bricks, and pieces of concrete blocks these days. But even shooting them in style and superiority is valuable to me.

[Blaine]

You are correct. My thinking, and I have both, is that the 45-70 is more flexable. You can load down to .444 levels, but a .444 cannot shoot a 525 grain whopper....... I think a fella could take either one for his only rifle and do pretty darn good if you recognize range limits.

[TedH]

Everybody should own at least one 45-70. A Marlin will do just fine too. Take the money you'll save from the 1886 and spend it on bullets/ammo.

[Idiot]

You are correct. My thinking, and I have both, is that the 45-70 is more flexable. You can load down to .444 levels, but a .444 cannot shoot a 525 grain whopper....... I think a fella could take either one for his only rifle and do pretty darn good if you recognize range limits.

See, that's sound wisdom, but...

Everybody should own at least one 45-70.

I'm struck with this bit of insanity too!

BlaineG set me straight and TedH twisted me up again. Thanks guys.

[mescalero1]

I'm not that crazy, and I own a 1895 in 45-70; well, maybe I am

[Blaine]

We enablers try our best, Sir.....After the 45-70, and .444, you will need a .405, a .44 Mag and a .41 Mag......

[marlinman93]

Cheaper brass, lots better bullet selection, heavier hitting, and it's a .45-70 too! What more could you ask for? Own them both?

[Grizz]

o fer cryin' out loud

yes,
and
yes;

but you knew that

[mescalero1]

C'mon Grizz,
get rid of that DOW grid, that is just depressing!

[Dastook]

o fer cryin' out loud

yes,
and
yes;

but you knew that

+1

I love my 86. Of course it is a stronger action than the Marlin, although the Marlin would be great too. I wish I could send you a picture of my shoulder right now. I have been fallowing Pacos rule: Before you hunt with a rifle. Shoot at least 100 rounds offhand at 100 yard targets with said rifle. I have no recoil pad on my 86. I got thru about fifty and now have a big hematoma on my arm/shoulder/chest. This is the second time I have done this (I'm on blood thinners). Real smart huh but I just can't bring myself to put a pad on it. It sure was fun while I was shooting it. I was shooting at a 1/2inch steel plate at 100 yds. The first time I hit it, it knocked the whole plate, stand everything over. Had to fix the stand and start over.

[Idiot]

o fer cryin' out loud

yes,
and
yes;

but you knew that

Yes, the 45/70 Government is better? Why is that? Isn't one elk and a refridgerator full of muk tuck enough penetration?
and
Yes, the 1886 is more reliable and shootable? Is that really so?

And, I kinda do, but what's wrong with talking about leverguns for once. I'm sick of politics.

BTW, I was hoping you'd show up Grizz. Does that 1886 digest those 525 grain pile-drivers as well as the 1895? Is there that little extra push of the lever needed when chambering a cartridge in that '86, or is it the same as the '95? I know I need another 45/70 Government, but which one would you recommend? My previous 1895 gave me just a bit of trouble every once in awhile when ejecting and chambering? How about yours?

And can someone please talk me out of buying another 45/70 Government.

[jeepnik]

o fer cryin' out loud

yes,
and
yes;

but you knew that

Yes, the 45/70 Government is better? Why is that? Isn't one elk and a refridgerator full of muk tuck enough penetration?
and
Yes, the 1886 is more reliable and shootable? Is that really so?

And, I kinda do, but what's wrong with talking about leverguns for once. I'm sick of politics.

BTW, I was hoping you'd show up Grizz. Does that 1886 digest those 525 grain pile-drivers as well as the 1895? Is there that little extra push of the lever needed when chambering a cartridge in that '86, or is it the same as the '95? I know I need another 45/70 Government, but which one would you recommend? My previous 1895 gave me just a bit of trouble every once in awhile when ejecting and chambering? How about yours?

And can someone please talk me out of buying another 45/70 Government.

No. Not possible. Once the bug has bit, the only medical treatment that works is the rapid purchase of a 45/70, followed by the liberal releasing of the heaviest hard cast rounds one can find. This follow on treatment should be administered at least weekly, or until the tendency to brusie subsides.

P.S. May I suggest one of the Guide Guns. Very handy, and if fed properly, bites at both ends.

How can you tell the happy 45/70 owner? Answer: He's the guy that steers his truck with his off hand after a day at the range.

[tman]

i have a 94bb.444 and a browning 86 src. 45-70 gov. either will stop anything on the planet. one's lighter and shorter, the other is more powerful. glad i own them both.

[Idiot]

P.S. May I suggest one of the Guide Guns. Very handy, and if fed properly, bites at both ends.

Kinda leaning toward the Guide Gun; maybe one with a bunch of holes at the end of the barrel. Maybe even a stainless steel one; if they make such a thing. BUT, I keep reading this article about this Ed Stevensen and in it are pictures of the prettiest Model 1886 I've ever seen. I simply can't get it out of my mind - maybe I'm out of my mind.

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

[Dastook]

P.S. May I suggest one of the Guide Guns. Very handy, and if fed properly, bites at both ends.

I simply can't get it out of my mind - maybe I'm out of my mind.

AH OH There's that itch. I know what that's all about.

[Hobie]

I got a .45-70 because I thought it had more potential.

[2ndovc]

We enablers try our best, Sir.....After the 45-70, and .444, you will need a .405, a .44 Mag and a .41 Mag......

And a 44-40, 45 Colt, 38-40 on and on on and on!

I have one 444 and three 45-70s. Ain't parting with any of the 45-70s.

jb

[1886]

The .45-70 gets the nod and the Marlin 95 is eminently practical BUT the 86 just stirs ones soul. Regards, 1886.

[jeepnik]

P.S. May I suggest one of the Guide Guns. Very handy, and if fed properly, bites at both ends.

Kinda leaning toward the Guide Gun; maybe one with a bunch of holes at the end of the barrel. Maybe even a stainless steel one; if they make such a thing. BUT, I keep reading this article about this Ed Stevensen and in it are pictures of the prettiest Model 1886 I've ever seen. I simply can't get it out of my mind - maybe I'm out of my mind.

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

The reason they stopped making the ported version is that it was "loud". Like very uncomfortably loud. Most folks prefer the unported version. By the way, I was kidding about the severe recoil. I should have used more smileys.

[TedH]

Kinda leaning toward the Guide Gun

You would never regret it. They are fantastic rifles and mine is way more accurate than it should be. I would stay away from the ported model though, too loud.

[Hobie]

We enablers try our best, Sir.....After the 45-70, and .444, you will need a .405, a .44 Mag and a .41 Mag......

And a 44-40, 45 Colt, 38-40 on and on on and on!

I have one 444 and three 45-70s. Ain't parting with any of the 45-70s.

jb

Hmmm... I don't have a .444 or a .405 but I do have a .45 Colt, .41 Mag and .44 Mag. I also have a .45-75 and lots of .50 AK brass...

[Old Savage]

They will both do - which one do you like better?

[gary rice]

My first levergun was a marlin cowboy in 45 colt. Not long after that i just had to buy a 45-70, I didnt need it just wanted it, now i love it.

[Idiot]

I'm really not worried about recoil. My old 95 was about as easy to shoot as a 22 Magnum; just a lot more fun. I just thought the holes would make it like a 22LR Besides, I heard there was no better way of getting rid of unwanted hunting companions than to use a ported 45/70. It will also help thin the Saturday crowd at the rifle range. So, you see, it does have a purpose.

[Grizz]

C'mon Grizz,
get rid of that DOW grid, that is just depressing!

Mescalaro,

Didja catch my notation: the bailout. What's happening, I think, is people are bailing their cash out of the nationalized institutions and salting it somewhere they can keep an eye on it. Even bonds are getting whacked by people who want to preserve capital.

Someone who might be right is looking for Dow 6000-ish; he's been right so far so it bears consideration.

Grizz

[Blaine]

Kinda leaning toward the Guide Gun

You would never regret it. They are fantastic rifles and mine is way more accurate than it should be. I would stay away from the ported model though, too loud.

Yup, LOUD! But mine is scary accurate and I'm not gonna give it up or have it chopped. The CB is just as accurate, though..... I fact, I haven't seen a 1895 Marlin that couldn't hit pop cans will boring regularity at 100M if you hold it right.

[mescalero1]

Grizz,
Watch for a brain drain from the top, the culprits will " take they money and run Venezuela"

[Grizz]

Does that 1886 digest those 525 grain pile-drivers as well as the 1895? Is there that little extra push of the lever needed when chambering a cartridge in that '86, or is it the same as the '95? I know I need another 45/70 Government, but which one would you recommend? My previous 1895 gave me just a bit of trouble every once in awhile when ejecting and chambering? How about yours?

I honestly have not shot the 86 enough to make emphatic declarative statements. It feeds just fine. Same I suppose as your .348 does/did. It ejects joyfully, putting the empty case directly over my hat, landing somewhere behind me. My GS has digested quite a few rounds by now. Never had a jamming issue, but occasionally I have to coax a round in, just doesn't quite hit the ramp the same way every time. I think I recall that the 86 has a different feed angle? It may also have a slightly longer lever stroke for the full cycle. But the sound that thing makes! My goodness, it sounds like a piece of precision machinery. I've always thought the 86/92 action to be the best of the best. It's not got a rear sight on it because I'm stalling about drilling the receiver, or bolt, for a peeper. It's a closet queen because I can't bear to nick it. Too nice. If I had another I could shorten it to trapper length and put a shotgun buttstock on it and a homemade bolt peep and then I wouldn't worry too much about the thing.

As to which caliber, did you see my notes on the 405g 44 mag revolver load I'm working up? About 915 fps out of the muzzle penetrated a douglas fir firewood round, about 13 inches worth. I figure that could be thru and thru on the elk and maybe the muk-tuk as well. I have it around 940 fps now which gives the same impact energy at 50 yards that it took to penetrate the fir. My point is that size matters, and I doubt the 444 can match that performance, unless you have a ballard barrel that can stabilize the bullet.

As far as breaking rocks goes, there is a noticable difference in the effects of the 525g cast vs the 425g. The heavier bullet obviously gets a better reaction from the rocks, as well as about twice the water jug score. Can't specify the muk-tuk results. yet.

The GS is much more practical for slushing around the cold seawater of the coastal areas, much friendlier in a kayak, but in the 'zona where rust is unheard of there's no reason not to sport around the 86 if it pleases you.

Regards to the family and have fun choosing. Swing by and we can go do some side-by-side comparisons, we're only 37 hours away..,

Grizz

[Coldfingers]

Sure am pleased with my GG in the 45/70. A surenough sledghammer. I did lop the ports off the end in an effort to get the noise and blast from landing in my lap. Seemed to work pretty good. I always stop shooting before the bloodclots form or the retina pulls away. My son busted a moose this fall with his GS at 150 yards shooting offhand while standing knee deep in fast water. The sound of that 420grain hardcast smacking into the shoulder was like an echo of the gunshot.

My opinion, if you are looking for the cool factor, get the 86. If you are looking for a very utilitarian sledghammer get the GG. Think of it not only as an investment but as a way to protect your investments. Immagine some "poor" feller with evil intent hiding behind that rock or stump that you can pretty much blow right through. Aint alot of places to hide downrange of the ol 45/70.

Grizz...alot of folks are going to PCA's now (Peanut Can Accounts) since you can keep em close and no money grubbin person can dip in with the stroke of a keypad or pen. Irratating as heck when you get robbed in the name of "good"...worse when it is in the name of "the greater good". people!

My best,

Scotty

[AndyM]

You are correct. My thinking, and I have both, is that the 45-70 is more flexable. You can load down to .444 levels, but a .444 cannot shoot a 525 grain whopper....... I think a fella could take either one for his only rifle and do pretty darn good if you recognize range limits.

+1 - I really enjoy my Marlin 45-70

[maddog]

I really enjoy my guide gun. I've had it since 2003, and it is ported. Bought it for $350, used. It had about 30-40 shots thru it. To date I have taken 6 wild hogs, 1 javelina, 1 black bear, and 7 head of african plains game with the gun.

Having said that, If I want to hunt with "behemoth" loads, I may look into a Marlin 1895, with the pistol grip, for better recoil control.

maddog

[Old Ironsights]

I really like my 1886 TD, but I would trade it straight across for a Stainless 1895 TD/WWG Copilot.

I just like the Stainless Copilot better.

But .45-70 is better up & down than the .444 IMO.

[Modoc ED]

I've never had a .45-70 so I can't speak to it but I've got a couple of .444 Marlins and they do just fine. I've killed one Elk with a .444 Marlin and the Elk dropped in it's tracks dead as dead can be.

I've hunted with and killed more Elk with a .30-30 (170gr bullet) than anything else and the .30-30 does just fine. Kills as good as the .444 Marlin and even though I have no experience with a .45-70, I'd say the .30-30 will kill an Elk as dead as a .45-70 will -- I mean how dead does an Elk have to be?

Old Savage had a thread going in the past about killing Elk with the .30-30 . It was a good thread. If he saved it, maybe he'll re-post it again.

[Idiot]

Thanks for all the great responses. I picked up a lot of information.

Grizz, thanks for detailed response to my questions. You are responsible for my second look at the 45/70 G after a prolonged sabatical resulting from an extreme beating at the hands of a Ruger #3. Regards to you and yours as well.

After careful consideration, I think I need both a Marlin Guide Gun, sans the ports, and a shooter M1886. The Guide Gun comes first because they are cheap and easy to find - and there's already an empty space in the locker, call it a vacuum, that must be filled by some 45/70 Government. It took me many years to find a M71 shooter, so I know it will take the same for an 1886, but I will find one and the 45/70 void will be completely filled. Besides, a lot of the fun is in the hunt.

Thanks guys; as usual you wrecked my wallet. But I knew better than to ask a bunch of...

[Old Ironsights]

I've never had a .45-70 so I can't speak to it but I've got a couple of .444 Marlins and they do just fine. I've killed one Elk with a .444 Marlin and the Elk dropped in it's tracks dead as dead can be.

I've hunted with and killed more Elk with a .30-30 (170gr bullet) than anything else and the .30-30 does just fine. Kills as good as the .444 Marlin and even though I have no experience with a .45-70, I'd say the .30-30 will kill an Elk as dead as a .45-70 will -- I mean how dead does an Elk have to be?

Old Savage had a thread going in the past about killing Elk with the .30-30 . It was a good thread. If he saved it, maybe he'll re-post it again.

Biggest reason for a .45-70 over a .444 is not its monster thump, but that it's designed and proven as a BP cartridge. I really don't think the .444 is/will be nearly as useful with BP.

[JohndeFresno]

Get a Marlin 1895 or 1895G (Guide Gun) in .45-70 (like mine). You can reload it to your heart's content in all sorts of configurations; brass is more plentiful than other large bore brass; and it's the ultimate of cool - a living dinosaur from the days that our nation was wild, wooly and truly free. How does it do on game? Heck if I know - but it sure works great on paper targets - goes right through them!