OT - (WAY WAY OT) Movie - THE WINTER WAR

[Hobie]

I no longer watch "war" movies for fun. Don't ask me why. Anyway, we now have one playing all day long in the shop (since the renovation). Yesterday I played "The Winter War". The movie deals with the Finns and how they kicked butt on the Russkies/Soviets. One thing is clear, Europe was a hodge-podge of loyalties at this time (1939-1941) with the Germans signing away Finland for most of Poland and so forth. It is an excellent movie but don't watch it with the squeamish or for an uplifting message.

[Bill in Oregon]

Hobie: I am amazed at how few Americans are aware of the tremendous, humiliating blow tiny Finland administered to Stalin's army in the Winter War. I think it is not well known because of the tangled alliances you allude to. The Finns had help from the Germans, and some of their officers trained with the Germans, but the Finns were NEVER Nazis. In fact, my understanding is that Churchill mistrusted the Finns because of their historical military ties to the Germans --even preWWI -- and the Finns had to turn wherever they could to find arms and help to fight the Soviet army. The movie is a good one. If anyone here is interested in a truly David and Goliath fight, they can do no better than to read a history of the Winter War. And may God rest the soul of General Mannerheim.

[bigbore442001]

The Finns relied on their hunters and trappers to fight a guerilla war against the invading Russians. I have read some accounts of hunters who were adept at sneaking up on Russian sentries and cutting their throats in the night with thier puukus. It wasn't unusual for Russian troops to sit in their tents and soil themselves rather than go out at night to answer the call of nature.

There are many old veterans of the Winter War living in the Gardner Massachusetts area. In fact, I was showing my leuku knife to a kid who was surveying my property. Come to find out his grandmother fought Russians in the Winter War. She and her unit were captured but in a fire fight she was able to elude her captors since she was wearing white camoflage. I want to say she was about 16 or 17 at the time.

[24thMICH]

If you ever get a chance, there's a book out there called "Molotov Cocktail" written by John Virtanen, who I understand fought in the war. The Finns invented the "Molotov cocktail" to pop into tops of tanks after they disabled the treads by sticking logs into them. They named their simple device after the Russian Minister of Defense.

A few interesting facts about the Winter War ("talvisota") was the fact that the Russian troops involved were from the southern regions of Georgia and the like, who were totally unadapted to the Finnish winters, while the Finns of course held the home court advantage. The Russians wore light military garb best suited for summer and maybe autumn conditions. The garb was also brown, while the Finns wore white to blend into the terrain. The Finns were notorious for cross-country skiing into an area in the dead of night, determining where the Russians' fuel and food supply vehicles were, blowing them up and skiing off into the dark, letting the winter cold take care of the rest. In that way there were a number of "battles" where 4-6 Finns killed upwards of 10,000 Russians.

Another interesting point was the fact that a lot of Finnish Americans volunteered to go over there. There are a few of them still around up here in the U.P. of Michigan.

Another element that's worth noting: when the Finns allied themselves with Germany, the Germans immediately insisted the Finns turn over all of their residents who were either Jewish or Gypsy (Roma). The Finns refused, and tactically issued papers "renaming" their Jewish and Roma citizens with Finnish names. With the resident Jews and Roma speaking Finnish, the Germans had no way of knowing who was an ethnic Finn or not (ethnic Finns roughly divide up into "white Finns" (valkeasuomalainen) and "black Finns" (mustasuomalainen), based on whether they have some Swedish in them or not. The Jews and the Roma fit close enough to the black Finns that the Germans were in a losing guessing game figuring out who was Jewish, Gypsy or Finnish.

Another point worth noting: during what was called "the Continuation War," when the Finns formally allied with the Germans against the Russians, the Germans wanted the Finns to go beyond recovering the province (Karelia) lost to the Russians during the Winter War: they wanted the Finns to go on to help them take Leningrad.

The Finns refused, saying Leningrad was Russian and so therefore the Finns had no moral authority going there.

When the Russians finally started getting their territory back near the end of the war, they told the Finns to get the remaining Germans out of the country. The Germans refused to go, so the Finns had to fight the Germans as they retreated north to occupied Norway. On the way they practiced a scorched earth policy and burned virtually every building in their path down to the ground.

In my maternal grandfather's hometown of Kittilä in western Lapland, the only thing left standing after the Germans were done with it was the local church.

The Finns had to rebuild virtually everything north of the central waistline of the country.

[Hobie]

Many Americans, unsurprisingly, are descendant (or might themselves be) these European "freedom fighters". A friend's father fought the Germans in Poland beginning with the uprising. The friend took the Luger his father captured on a couple of deployments during the friend's time in the USMC (exactly how he did this will not be discussed) as a continuation of its service AGAINST evil (as his father put it).

However, most living Americans have no idea how devastating a war actually is.

[JerryB]

Thank's Hobie I really enjoyed this post.

[DixieBoy]

Hobie - Well, you know you're gonna pull us history nuts out of the woodwork with a cool post like this. I've learned a lot just reading the half dozen posts here. I've got a little tidbit to add, but I'm guessing some of the gang know of this. It's shooting related too.

During the Winter War, which was only 104 or 105 days long (I forget which), a tiny little farmer named Simo Hayha became the highest scoring sniper in modern history. Hayha killed over 520 Russians with a Finnish variant Mosin-Nagant rifle, and he preferred open sights rather than using a scope. Hayha ended up being badly wounded but survived, and was much celebrated by the Finnish people. I believe that his grandfather had taught him how to shoot.

I agree with the rest of the gang here: Excellent Post Hobie ! - DixieBoy

[El Chivo]

i heard another interesting tidbit, from a Laurie Anderson album of all people.

Apparently at some point the Russians sent in paratroopers, and many chutes failed to open. So the Finns would ski up to the holes in the snow and finish off the Russians stuck there.

Hobie, I searched for this on DVD, no results. Is that a tape you have?

[Doc Hudson]

Oddly enough, I just finished reading a book written by a man who recieved the Mannerheim Medal and Winter War Medal for service to Finland.

The book was Dive Bomber, written by then Ensign Roberet A. Winston and published in 1939, at the end of his first tour of duty as a Naval Aviator (those boys did some amazing things in open cockpit aircraft). After his first tour, Ensign Winston went on inactive Naval Reserve for a while and worked as chief test pilot for Brewster. He assembled, and tested lots of aircraft for Finland, trained pilots and oversaw ferrying the planes from Sweden to Finland.

[Hobie]

Hobie, I searched for this on DVD, no results. Is that a tape you have?

It is a DVD. For some of these older foreign movies you might have to do some looking to get them in the proper format. The Europeans (including the Russians) have made and are presumably making some rather good movies exploring this period and often they are using ORIGINAL equipment including armored vehicles. "The Winter War" is available at Amazon.

PS So I reviewed my old Amazon link and see it is out of stock. Target lists it, but also apparently awaiting delivery of product.

There is a site, written by a Finn, and YouTube has a selection of video on the subject which I've put in one easy to find place.

[2ndovc]

Hobie - Well, you know you're gonna pull us history nuts out of the woodwork with a cool post like this. I've learned a lot just reading the half dozen posts here. I've got a little tidbit to add, but I'm guessing some of the gang know of this. It's shooting related too.

During the Winter War, which was only 104 or 105 days long (I forget which), a tiny little farmer named Simo Hayha became the highest scoring sniper in modern history. Hayha killed over 520 Russians with a Finnish variant Mosin-Nagant rifle, and he preferred open sights rather than using a scope. Hayha ended up being badly wounded but survived, and was much celebrated by the Finnish people. I believe that his grandfather had taught him how to shoot.

I agree with the rest of the gang here: Excellent Post Hobie ! - DixieBoy

From what I've read. That total is just with the Nagant. Doesn't include the others he killed with his Suomi sub-machine gun which is reported to be many more. One quote I heard from Mr. Hayha was when he was asked how he killed so many soldiers. He simply replied that " It was a clear day".



That was a great movie.
jb

[airedaleman]

Hobie, thanks for bringing up the Winter War. The Finns' determination in the face of the Russian juggernaut is absolutely amazing.
I can't remember where I read it (again, geezeritis strikes), but a BBC(?) correspondent several ago interviewed a Finnish veteran about his experiences fighting the Russians, asking the obvious. The interview went something like this:
BBC: "Did you see much combat?"
Finn: "Yes, a great deal."
BBC: "And did you kill enemy soldiers?"
Finn: "Oh, yes. Very many."
BBC (with great concern): And did you find it difficult to kill them?
Finn: "Oh, yes. You see they ran in zig-zags and tended to hide behind things!"

[Bill in Oregon]

Guys, for in-depth reading on the Finns and the Winter War, go here: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/default.asp
I first got interested in the subject years ago when Finnish M39 Mosin-Nagants were all over the place for less than $100. One of these rifles rebuilt on a Russian action by Sako gave me my best ever group from a surplus rifle of under an inch at 100 yards. I wish I still that Finn.

[Hobie]

For some reason I've been interested in the Winter War since I learned of the Finns resistance to Soviet attacks. However, I was given a MS 1891 rifle and that just got me all interested again.

[morgan in nm]

Good story Hobie and a nice rifle. A few years back, I lucked out on some very nice Finn rifles, all in excellent shape. A beutiful 91/24 "Bohler-Stahl", Tikka 91/30 "Deutchland" marked and a 91 vkt that appears unfired from an estate sale. I have fired the 91/24 only once but the other 2, not yet. All 3 have what appears to be .308 bores so I was not ready to shoot surplus through them.

IMO, you don't have to look very far to see why the Finns shot so well. They modified the russian-captured nagants with 2-stage triggers(mostly), many had very fine barrels and sights, and almost all of them had those fingure-grooved stocks which were to help prevent warpage of the stock in the barrel channel. For those who are interested, there is a book that covers markings by Lapin that covers most of the nagants.

I still love the story though

[airedaleman]

Like Bill in Oregon, I got into the Finnish Mosin Nagants back then, too. Over the course of time I had two Model 39's and two Model 27's, one of which was an unissued VKT s/n 230 with a 1932 barrel dte. I'm told that this rifle is a collector's item
(of course it's gone). I also had one each of the Sako homeguard rifles, the Models 28 and 28/30. I can honestly say that all six of these rifles were the most accurate military rifles I have ever fired. They would all keep 5 shots inside two inches at
100 yards, and this with my aging (now aged) eyes and open sights.

[wm]

If you got to Youtube and put Winter War into the search you'll turn up most of this film in segments.

Wm