After watching the attacks on Sarah

[goon]

Aside from that, people have been changing the land to better suit their needs since the first crops were domesticated. Probably even longer than that.
It is what it is.

I say supervise the hell out of it to keep them honest and prevent any unnecessary damage to the environment, then let them drill.
It ain't a fix, but it will help buy us some time until some people smarter than me can come up with one.

[Grizz]

From my point of view, equality under the law means exactly that.
We all have to have the same rights regardless of whether or not you're comfortable with how someone else exercises those rights, assuming that they're not hurting anyone else in the process.
If we don't all have the same rights, we don't have equality.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. It just shows how little you understand about our government and what words mean. Actually, you quoted yourself, (

From my point of view), and the social contract in our country is not according to your point of view.

If you have your way, the seven thousand plus year old cultural understanding will be reversed for an erroneous concept of what equality under the law actually means.

And I stand by my original statement, if you ever get the opportunity to make that statement before the throne of Almighty God, IT WILL SOUND STUPID. If you don't know why, I heartily recommend you talk to someone who does.

Sure, you're free to say it, but I'm betting you will wish you didn't on that day.

[goon]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. It just shows how little you understand about our government and what words mean. Actually, you quoted yourself, (

From my point of view

), and the social contract in our country is not according to your point of view.

If you have your way, the seven thousand plus year old cultural understanding will be reversed for an erroneous concept of what equality under the law actually means.

And I stand by my original statement, if you ever get the opportunity to make that statement before the throne of Almighty God, IT WILL SOUND STUPID. If you don't know why, I heartily recommend you talk to someone who does.

Sure, you're free to say it, but I'm betting you will wish you didn't on that day.

I slightly altered your post to "quote" myself for you - you forgot to close it with [/quote].

Anyway, you haven't given me any reasons why I'm so stupid. All you've done is define me as stupid according to your point of view.
But what makes your point of view any smarter than anyone else's?

Anyway, what's so erroneous about my understanding of equality under the law?
Seems pretty straight-forward to me: Treat everyone the same.
It doesn't matter if you or I like what the other guy is doing or if we see it as immoral. As long as his sins are only hurting himself it should be between him and God. Only when his sins spill over into my life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness do I have any reason to worry about it.
And while we're on the subject, many people would consider our affection for firearms immoral. Should they have the right to use their definition of morality to prevent us from being able to live our lives as we see fit?
And if they shouldn't, why should we be able to do that to them?

Maybe my point of view will sound stupid to God. I'd bet good money that God will think a lot of the things I've said and done are pretty stupid. No suprise there.
Guess some day I'll find out, but personally, I doubt that you really have any more idea of what God thinks is stupid than I do.

[rjohns94]

Gents,

many of the forum rules are being violated on this thread. some are using curse words, some are name calling and several are not discussing politely. On another thread, we invited a 12 year old young lady to join us as we discuss things nicely and in a family friendly manner. Come on guys, clean it up!

[Grizz]

Well, you misrepresented what I said twice.

First here:

Anyway, you haven't given me any reasons why I'm so stupid. All you've done is define me as stupid according to your point of view.

I did not call you stupid. I didn't even post the original statement to you, you owned it.

This is what I actually said in the original post to someone else:

I bet if you were standing around in Heaven and read this it would sound, you know... STUPID.

I was responding to this:

But if you're gonna have equality, it has to be, you know... equal.

That's about where you chimed in. Here's the part you seem to be stumbling over:

Not to mention that "equality" in our constitution has NOTHING to do with equating the sin of perverts with the GOD GIVEN institution of Holy Matrimony.

so I'll expand this a little. Open your Bible to Ephesians Chapter 5 and read verses 30 to 32:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

So the obvious: Christians are members of Christ's body, his flesh, his bones. That at least speaks to the way Christ identifies with us. Then a man leaves his parents and joins corporeally with his wife, joined as one flesh. This also speaks to the relationship of Christ, the sinless One who died for the sinful, intimately joined with believers just as if we are married. This also speaks of the bond and strength of the relationship of Marriage, that marriage between a Christian man and woman is as intimate as Christ's relationship with us.

So if the context doesn't do it for you, let me explain that no amount of sinning will elevate that relationship to a holy one that has the intimacy of Christ and His church. I could make it clearer but this is a family channel and it's obvious anyway. Perverted judges stating that perverted sinners can obtain the same blessings of Christian marriage just plain sounds STUPID here, and if you can understand the context of the scene from Scripture, you should be pursuaded that it also sounds STUPID if repeated before the Throne of Grace.

That's my point and it's why I made it, too.

And finally here's the dope on "equal protection" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

It started out to eliminate racial inequality, or which there's been plenty.
Now lunatic judges are interfering with the purpose and meaning of marriage by dragging it down to affirmative action litigation. And I repeat, expressed to the Holy God Who inhabits the Throne of Grace, IT SOUNDS STUPID.

Regards,

Grizz

[Old Ironsights]

....
So if the context doesn't do it for you, let me explain that no amount of sinning will elevate that relationship to a holy one that has the intimacy of Christ and His church. I could make it clearer but this is a family channel and it's obvious anyway. Perverted judges stating that perverted sinners can obtain the same blessings of Christian marriage just plain sounds STUPID here, and if you can understand the context of the scene from Scripture, you should be pursuaded that it also sounds STUPID if repeated before the Throne of Grace.

That's my point and it's why I made it, too.

Regards,

Grizz

SIGH (Off I go into the land of theosophy..... )

ANYTHING mankind says to God sounds stupid... by default.

Grizz, while "no amount of sinning will elevate that relationship to a holy one that has the intimacy of Christ and His church", no amount of legislation will either.

Remember, from the days of Adam God has made it a point to allow Mankind to CHOOSE between good and evil.

Only MAN has taken it upon HIMSELF to decide to stand in the place of GOD and Judge his fellow man for that taking that choice.

I, for one, will not suppose to be more precient than God and do not believe that MEN should create Laws to deny the CHOICE that GOD has given to men.

That doesn't mean I have to LIKE those choices, and it doesn't mean I have to personally accept those choices when they directly threaten me, but it is not my place to otherwise tell any man or woman what they may or may not do when GOD has given them that choice.

Their choice, their soul. All we can do is provide an example of Right... not mandate it. For to do so is to mandate more than God does.

[Grizz]

ANYTHING mankind says to God sounds stupid... by default.

Not so. The Bible is full of things men said to God without sounding stupid.

According to the social contract, we are endowed by our Creator with certain rights. This does not include the right to make sexual perversion the moral and legal equivilent of the mystery of Christ and the Church, to put it in terms of the previously quoted Scripture.

No matter how far someone wants to bend over backward to make comprehensive allowance for human behavior, the fact is that Jesus Christ died to save us from God's judgement and enable us to emulate His nature. He did not die to endorse man's proclivity for doing exactly every thing that's offensive to God.

Moral relativity crashes and burns when it encounters God's moral absolutes.

Yes, men have free will and can freely choose to ignore God, to spite God, or to embrace God. That's free will. That does not make it incumbent on me to codify every disgrace imaginable as free will. In fact pedophiles are using the exact same "equal protection" argument to say that they are being deprived of their pursuit of happiness.
It's free will ya know. Mass murders are also expressing their free wills. Do you also feel compelled to make allowances for their free will?

Regards,

Grizz

[Old Ironsights]

"Neither then shall I condem you. Go and sin no more"...

Yah. That sounds like justification for standing in the stead of God and doing His judgement for Him...

[Old Savage]

Bone Digger - then why are you supporting the party that supports all that IMPORTANT stuff you don't believe in. It is you who doesn't see.

[goon]

Well, you misrepresented what I said twice.

First here:

Anyway, you haven't given me any reasons why I'm so stupid. All you've done is define me as stupid according to your point of view.

I did not call you stupid. I didn't even post the original statement to you, you owned it.

This is what I actually said in the original post to someone else:

I bet if you were standing around in Heaven and read this it would sound, you know... STUPID.

I was responding to this:

But if you're gonna have equality, it has to be, you know... equal.

...
Regards,

Grizz

Point of fact, sir, is that I am that someone else. You were quoting me when you replied to the first "equality" statement.

I have no arguments against your faith and AGREE with you, at least in a general sense, but that's not the issue.
What I'm getting at is that you can't use legislation to control morality.
People are not too bright. They make bad choices, just like they always have and just like they always will. It's part of being human. No matter how many laws you make, you aren't ever going to change that.
And since we are a country that prides itself on equality, we're a bunch of hypocrites if we make laws that deny others the same rights we have just because we don't agree with their choices.
Again, I'd like to point out that there are those who would do exactly the same thing to you and I just because we own guns. It's not right when we're the target and it's not right when anyone else is the target either, regardless of what the rationale or reason for that persecution is.

I'm pretty much in total agreement with Old Ironsights on this one.

Yes, men have free will and can freely choose to ignore God, to spite God, or to embrace God. That's free will. That does not make it incumbent on me to codify every disgrace imaginable as free will. In fact pedophiles are using the exact same "equal protection" argument to say that they are being deprived of their pursuit of happiness.
It's free will ya know. Mass murders are also expressing their free wills. Do you also feel compelled to make allowances for their free will?

Regards,

Grizz

You're talking about two very different situations here.
Two homosexual adults are doing something immoral in the eyes of God, but other than themselves, they're not harming anyone. Since they are not posing any danger to you, me, or anyone else, what they do isn't any of our business.
OTOH, a pedophile or a murderer IS hurting someone else. No one has the right to harm someone else just to express his free will. As such, what a murderer or a pedophile does IS everyone's concern.

I honestly don't see how you don't make that distinction.
But the odds are good that nothing I say will change your mind and nothing you say is going to change my mind.
So I think it's probably best for me to just avoid this conversation from now on.

[Griff]

Gentlemen, gentlemen... I hope I can still use that term, let's not forget ourselves and get caught up in the heat of the moment. Remember, we can discuss almost anything, if we can do so politely.

So... in that vein, I dislike negative ads that attack a person's family, nor their character or sincerity. I feel I'm discerning enough to do that myself on what evidence is there. I've formulated my opinions of all the candidates for the top 2 spots. And while I'd likely be the least able person to try to convince of anyone of any individuals fitness of office... in the spirit of "my Dad can whoop up on yer Dad", I found the following to wholly convince me of Mrs. Palin's fitness to hold the 2nd highest office in the land:

Did you know that…

Sarah Palin does not have 5 kids, she actually has 7. Their names are Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper, Trig, Chuck Norris, and Jack Bauer.

The Northern Lights are really just the reflection from Sarah Palin's eyes.

The Russians sold Alaska to America because Sarah Palin would not submit to autocracy.

The Arctic Circle runs through Alaska so the Sun can have some relief from Sarah Palin's bright glare.

Sarah Palin is allowed first dibs on Alaskan wolfpack kills.

Sarah Palin is so pro-life that she personally hog-tied two reps from Planned Parenthood who came knocking at her door.

It's not raining in DC. Those are God's tears of joy that McCain picked Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin's hotness is the largest single contributor to melting polar ice caps.

Sarah Palin is the "other" whom Yoda spoke about.

Sarah Palin's presence in the lower 48 means the Arctic ice cap can finally return.

Sarah Palin fired Jack Bauer because he was too soft in dealing with terrorists.

Sarah Palin's pageant career ended early so other women could have a chance.

Sarah Palin's son Track is going to Iraq after the Surge, because a Palin during the Surge would have been unfair.

Sarah Palin wears glasses lest her uncontrollable optic blasts slaughter everyone. (X-Men reference)

Sarah Palin actually has Big Foot in her freezer.

Sarah Palin gave a speech in Texas after her water broke before flying home to Alaska to give birth. (Actually true)

Sarah Palin doesn't need a gun to hunt. She has been known to throw a bullet through an adult bull elk.

Sarah Palin once spilled coffee on Joe Biden & one of his $400 ties from Pink.

Sarah Palin keeps her hair in a beehive to hide her ninja weaponry.

Sarah Palin will personally open a homemade can of whoopa** on Ahmadinejad, Putin, and Chavez as soon as she's done making mooseburgers for her kids.

A grizzly bear once tried to stare down Sarah Palin. Once. Just once.

Sarah Palin will send Joe Biden a pre-debate cheat sheet. The sheet will have tips on defending against Kung Fu Death Grip.

Sarah Palin became governor because five children left her with too much spare energy.

Three of Sarah Palin's 5 kids came out sideways and she never flinched.

Global Warming doesn't kill polar bears. Sarah Palin does. Generally with her bare hands.

Sarah Palin was the original "Deadliest Catch."

Sarah Palin paid her way through school by hunting for Kodiak pelts with a slingshot.

Alaska is the 49th state solely because they knew even in 1959 that Sarah Palin never finishes last.

Chuck Norris wishes he was Sarah Palin trapped in a man's body.

Sarah Palin got Tom Brady pregnant, and then left him.

Sarah Palin killed and ate the Grizzly Man.

Sarah Palin once won the Iditarod without any dogs. She simply willed the sled to victory.

Sarah Palin wears half the makeup that John Edwards wears and still looks like twice the woman he does.

Sarah Palin once guided Santa's sleigh through an Alaskan blizzard with the light from her smile.

Sarah Palin fishes salmon by convincing them it's in their interest to jump into the boat

Sarah Palin will pry your Klondike bar from your cold dead fingers.

Sarah Palin is the only person on Earth who scares Jack Bauer.

Chuck Norris asked for Sarah Palin's autograph before she asked for his.

[Doc Hudson]

As I told a smartarsed liberal elsewhere:

The more I see of these personal attacks, the better I like Sarah Palin. If the Socialists hate and fear her that much, she is bound to be my kind of folks.

[Old Savage]

Griff - you are indeed the Cowboy/Trucker Philosopher in the tradition of Will Rogers.

[Grizz]

As I told a smartarsed liberal elsewhere:

The more I see of these personal attacks, the better I like Sarah Palin. If the Socialists hate and fear her that much, she is bound to be my kind of folks.

The amazing thing about Palin is that there are a lot of women in Alaska just like her. My daughter never got into politics, but she's very much cut from the same bolt of cloth. She drives a 165 foot tug boat towing a 300 foot barge for a living. She's killed deer and a caribou with a hand gun as well as her rifles; she literally grew up shooting. She's caught and cleaned more fish than Palin has, but it's nothing unusual. Some of the best fishermen in Alaska are women.

My wife was born and raised in Alaska. She fished commercially carrying our sons. When our sons were born she fished with the infants in a car seat sitting on the hatch cover watching us work until they could stand on their own two feet. Then they were tethered so they could walk the deck and watch us work. Until they could work too, alongside their Mom, Dad, and sister. My wife will look you straight in the eye and talk straight about whatever you care to discuss. My wife is just as talented as Sarah, but never got into politics. Probably my bad. My wife is a brilliant thinker and connects the dots the right way.

There are probably thousands of Sarahs in Alaska, and they will look you straight in the eye and talk straight about anything you care to discuss.

It's only a phenomenon outside Alaska to outsiders. It's normal where we're from.

To Doc's point: absolutely, the one they fear is the one I want representing me...,

Grizz

My Alaskans:



and then, they grow up:

[dukers65]

it's as the gal said in the movie , she's the one she has grit.
dan

[Old Savage]

It's Tougher in Alaska.

[Griff]

Griff - you are indeed the Cowboy/Trucker Philosopher in the tradition of Will Rogers.

Nah, I copied that from another forum. Just like it a LOT.

[Bogie35]

Great stuff Griff!

Incredibly, the best one was actually true!

bogie

[C. Cash]

Looks like you got a winner there Grizz. I married a Jersey girl and her and gut piles just don't go together

[Old Savage]

Here is a Jersey girl - my cousin Cathie - though she lives in Idaho now.