POLITICS - Update - Confederate Memorial Day

[JDL]

DixieBoy, Bravo! Thanks for telling it like it is although some won't/can't accept the facts because their mind is already made up. I had this very conversation with a history professor only a year ago. Lincon didn't free the slaves but, instead, enslaved us all.

[RSY]

...some won't/can't accept the facts because their mind is already made up.

You've got that only partially right. Actually, those are the people who allow others to make up their minds for them. Anyone capable of rudimentary critical thought and exposure to the facts would be hard-pressed to accept the standard textbook version of the War.

Scott

[Blaine]

...some won't/can't accept the facts because their mind is already made up.

You've got that only partially right. Actually, those are the people who allow others to make up their minds for them. Anyone capable of rudimentary critical thought and exposure to the facts would be hard-pressed to accept the standard textbook version of the War.

Scott

Bull Hockey....... The Neo-Nazi can orate for hours on why Hitler was right.........I don't care if Robert E. Lee was God...I'm glad the north won and you guys do little for the memory of your side by acting the way you do......

[Blaine]

...some won't/can't accept the facts because their mind is already made up.

You've got that only partially right. Actually, those are the people who allow others to make up their minds for them. Anyone capable of rudimentary critical thought and exposure to the facts would be hard-pressed to accept the standard textbook version of the War.

Scott

Bull Hockey....... The Neo-Nazi can orate for hours on why Hitler was right.........I don't care if Robert E. Lee was God...I'm glad the north won and you guys do little for the memory of your side by acting the way you do......

Let me clarify.....If your son kicks my son's butt in a fair fight, you're gonna be happy and proud as hell.........All the post fight "what ifs" and reasons and tactical blunders are not gonna change the outcome and your feelings..........listen, now: Whiners, be they Johnny Rebs, or Blacks, or whoever, are not admired or respected.........I can easily, with no problem, GLADLY and WILLINGLY pay homage and respect to the southern dead and abhor anyone that would do otherwise, but that's the end of it...Y'all are making it hard to do that now...You lost...get over it.

[Hobie]

DixieBoy,

That was a heck of a first post.

Why don't you post about leverguns? You sure can put some thoughts together!

[Blaine]

DixieBoy,

That was a heck of a first post.

Why don't you post about leverguns? You sure can put some thoughts together!

He's a HECK of a writer.....(but them southern boys can't shoot, tho)

[Hobie]

...some won't/can't accept the facts because their mind is already made up.

You've got that only partially right. Actually, those are the people who allow others to make up their minds for them. Anyone capable of rudimentary critical thought and exposure to the facts would be hard-pressed to accept the standard textbook version of the War.

Scott

I agree. There's been a lot of propaganda repeated in schools for a long time.

[RSY]

...You lost...get over it.

Tubby, you'll get no argument from me on that point, whatsoever. Facts are facts.

What needs to be argued, though, is the nature of the outcome and its relative benefit to our nation's past 143 years and its future.

The point I'm trying, perhaps ineffectually, to make is that we all sit around here and comport ourselves as these strict Constitutional literalists when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. But then, some of us blatantly ignore another key (I daresay the PRIME) intention of our Founding Fathers: that the States were not to be subjugated by the Union to which they were voluntarily joining.

At this point, it has nothing to do with where you or your ancestors lived, but what you think about the Constitution.

Scott

[Blaine]

I could go on and on about why letting states join and leave is a really bad idea, but I'll just say a couple words: England/Ireland. We would have never had peace and would have been taken over at will by another strong country.

[RSY]

I could go on and on about why letting states join and leave is a really bad idea...

Me, too. It was never supposed to really happen. Instead, it was a mechanism the possibility of which was supposed to keep the Federal government in line with its Constitutionally set forth duties and within its boundaries of behavior. Apparently, Lincoln missed that memo.

Scott

[Blaine]

I could go on and on about why letting states join and leave is a really bad idea...

Me, too. It was never supposed to really happen. Instead, it was a mechanism the possibility of which was supposed to keep the Federal government in line with its Constitutionally set forth duties and within its boundaries of behavior. Apparently, Lincoln missed that memo.

Scott

Perhaps a game of political oneupmanship went awry?

And, yet....the Bill of Rights were aimed at protecting indivuals from the gubment, not states......hmmmmmm That's got to be a good point, but I don't know how to do it.....

[DixieBoy]

Hey guys. Checking in before bed. I've been grading papers for about 13 hours today and I'm half blind. This is finals week coming starting tomorrow and I'll probably shoot as bad as Blaine by the end of it.

I want to thank you guys for the hearty welcome. I've been a Marlin lover for about 7 or 8 years now (have a very nice 1895 with pistol grip) and a Ruger Blackhawk shooter for a while too. I'm trying to straighten out some accuracy problems with my Blackhawk right now. Bought a Manson reamer for the cylinder throats, which are all horribly undersized. Brian Pearce's articles in Handloader got me off my butt to begin this project. Generally, I love the .45's, and have a few Ruger autos which I've come to love as well.

Yeah, I know, that's blasphemy to some of the pistol shooting crew. But I've got a P90 that I've probably put over 20,000 round through, and the thing has yet to balk at anything I've fed it. 200 grain H&G's, 230 gr. JHP's, it doesn't seem to matter. This is one pistola I'd trust my life with. In fact, I've gotten it some brothers and sisters over the years, but the first one is my honey, my ol' reliable.

I wanted to tell Charles that I thank him for his original post. It got me off my butt and onto the forum. Yes, the Texas history is incredible stuff. I teach what they call survey classes at the local community college, and I bring in lots of visual aids that I gather up myself. One of my faves is a reproduction of the flag that the Texicans flew in response to the demand of Santa Anna's forces when they wanted the Texans' brass cannon surrendered. You know the one, the "Come and Take It" flag. The kids go wild over that, as they know that their prof is one of the very rare pro-gun guys on campus. The war and reconstruction that followed also provides a neat segue into the stuff I teach them about the Wild West. I start with outlaws, to get them interested. And of course, Texas produced some really mild mannered guys like John Wesley Hardin and Bill Longley, to name a few.

There are a couple books on my gotta-get list, one of them is about the Reconstruction years, specifically in your neck of the woods, Texas. It is truly fascinating stuff, and I want to know more about it. You mentioned the Germans, and their situation in those times. It's true that most of those folks maintained loyalty to the union. I guess I can't blame them, since many of them were fleeing truly awful messes back in Germany. They felt that they owed the union - more than the south - their loyalty.

So much awesome Texas history. I got wrapped up in reading alot about the Comanches a while back, and from that, the captivity stories about anglo kids being taken away to live with the tribes. There's a great couple of books out there about these "stories within the story." I read Hermann Lehman's book, who was taken at about 11 years of age, and later would lead killing raids against his own people. Incredible stuff. There's another good one out there by a guy named Scott Zesch, I think, called "The Captured," which will hold your interest. It can get addictive, reading about those times.

I think that RSY gets it too, about the war years. It isn't about whose side won, and being bitter. It is about the government that we got after the conflict ended. Guys, I don't have the answers here, as to how we can regain the level of freedom that guys like Jefferson wanted us to have. I do know that they used to talk about "this great experiment in liberty" back in the 1770's. And I think that every one of the founding fathers would be disappointed at how much we've let slip away. Again, I don't have the answers to how to fix this mess. But I think it's important to know how things came to be this way, because it may be that we have a chance to fix things in the future. Or the next generation may be the ones. Who knows?

Lastly, Blaine mentioned us southern boys being bad shooters. Yeah, I know it is all in fun, and I'm good with that. Here's what I do, since I'm a transplanted yankee: If I'm having a crummy day I say it must be the yankee in me squeezing the trigger today. If I'm just on fire and shooting up a storm, well then, you know it's the southerner in me !!

Take care guys. I'm bringing a box of Kleenex with me to school tomorrow, since some of the kids will weep when they see their last test grades ! I'll check back in soon. - DixieBoy

[HORACE]

Dixieboy,

As an Australian (and a bit of a history buff) I've learned a fair bit about Civil War stuff from these posts, especially yours. I also was under the impression that the war started less from the question of slavery, than from the question of States rights.

In this country, although fortunately we have not suffered the calamity of a civil war, we have also struggled with the issue of States rights.

On the question of honouring the fallen, surely this is a basic Christian/Judeo ethic common to all of us.

[20cows]

Dixieboy, sounds like we read from the same library, though I suspect you've spent more time in it than I have.

Fascinationg stuff!

[Charles]

Dixieboy... My heart goes out to you at this time of the school year. My wife is a college History prof, and She is going through the same thing.

I will retire from the Pastoral Ministry of the United Methodist Church in just a couple of weeks and had wanted to teach a couple of courses at the local University to keep me engaged with real humans and not just cyberbots. Two days ago I got an offer of a full time job at The University of Texas at Brownsville in the Legal Studies program. I am conflicted whether to accept it or not. I had not contemplated a career change, but retirment with a few hours of work thrown in to keep me "socialized".

The Hill Country of Central Texas was settled by Germans and they have had a very large impact on Texas history and culture. There are still a number of predominatly German towns up that way.

The famous Chili Con Carne is the product of Texas, when the German meat stew met the spices of the local Tejano/Menican folks. Tejano/Conjunto music which is popular all over Latin America is also the product of Texas German music meeting the Latin soul.

Much of Texas culture is a melding of Anglo, Mexican and
German cultures. There were other ethnic groups, but the Germans were by far the largest group other than the Anglos/English/Scots/Welsh.

One of the best book on Texas history in the early period is "Rip Ford's Texas" edited my Stephen Oats. This book containes the memories, journalds etc. of John S. "Rip" Ford. Rip Ford came to Texas during the days of the Texas Republic and was a Medical Doctor, Lawer, Newspaper man , Politician, Texas Ranger Captain, and Confederate Col. He was deeply involved in the fight with the Comanche, the Civil War in Texas, the "reconstruction", The Border bandit wars and the ins and out of Texas politics at the time. I am proud to say my GGrandfather served with him in 1858 and 59 in campaigns against the Comanche.

HIs book is one of the few I haul out every couple of years and reread. It never gets old and I always find it fresh. He gives great insight into the thinking and culture of his day.

I do more than just prester this board with Confederate persepctive and a Border Rat's views on things in general, I am a lifelong shooter from the mid-50's. I have been a handloader and bullet caster since the late 50's. I also enjoy gunsmithing and rifle building.

I am a 6th Generation Texas and come from a long line of Texas lawyers, judges, peace officers and ranchers. We are a pretty strong willed and agressive lot. I find it difficult to turn a blind eye to some of the truly ignorant rantings by folks who have lots of feelings on issues, but no facts or understanding. They somehow assume that the facts just must back up their feelings, and often they are not correct in this assumption.

Anyway... I am looking forward to your continued participation on this board on matters of guns and whatever suits your fancy. You don't have to pee folks off, I have the chore well covered.

[rangerider7]

Welcome Dixieboy! I enjoyed your post.

[KirkD]

DixieBoy, I finally got some time to read through your posts. We homeschool our children up to highschool. A significant part of their history education is American history. As I read through your first post on the events leading up to the 'War of Secession' (I really like that, by the way .... more descriptive than 'Civil War' and not as inflammatory and more accurate than 'War of Aggression' ), I was struck with how closely your account corresponds to what our children have been taught in the curriculum chosen by my wife. She puts a lot of work into choosing our children's curriculum and supplements it with books and tapes from our local library. I'm not sure if Christian home school curriculum puts more effort into getting all the events out there, or if it's my wife's interest in digging up info if she thinks the curriculum isn't telling the whole story.

Anyway, the detail that you have laid out is the kind of information that needs to be made much more prevalent in the media to educate the kind of people who complained about the flags in Charles' first post. The history of the Stars and Bars is also very important. As you mentioned, many people associate it with neo-nazi groups or the KKK. Even in the small town nearest to our farm in central Canada, a local group of very disreputable 18-30 year olds hung the nazi flag side by side with the Stars and Bars. The issue of slavery is the most delicate one. The valley where I now live was entirely populated by slaves from the South who had escaped into Canada in the mid-1850's. After the War of Secession, many returned to the the USA to find children and other relatives. Not a single one remains in this valley today.

We cannot say that in the War of Secession, one side was completely right and did everything the right way, and the other side was completely wrong, and did everything the wrong way. There were many people who fought and died for the Union, genuinely and sincerely believing they were fighting for the noble and right cause of the preservation of the Union which they loved. When all is said and done, however, I believe the South was in the right, when they chose to secede.

Finally, you wrote,

This was the result of the war which we were all left with, today: a gov't. which would assume increasingly greater and greater power over every aspect of our lives. The issue of who had the say-so over how things woudl be in the states - states themselves, or the feds - was settled at the point of a gun. And no matter whose side your own heart lies with, this was a net loss for all of us.

We have a similar problem in Canada. We formed a confederacy in 1867 between the provinces. (That event is still called 'Confederation' to this day.) The provinces held most of the power, with only limited power to the government of the confederation. Slowly, the federal government took more and more power. The provinces still retain some power and want more, so it has led to some negotiations over the past 20 years. Overall, I think that anyone who is well past concerned about their government taking more and more power over our lives must feel some measure of support for the South, if only they knew the events as you have laid them out, DixieBoy. Still, state power may be no better than federal power if California is any indication. Government, in general, is often like a malignant cancer sucking up more and more of its taxpayers money, relieving them of their freedoms, and growing larger every year. This is often the case whether we are talking about local, state, or federal governments. In a way, we are all becoming 21st century slaves to government. I am forced to give over half my income to the various levels of governments through ever increasing taxes. There is an explosion of laws against victimless 'crimes' that constantly erode our liberties. As individuals we have neither the legal right nor power to secede and there is no 'Canada' to escape to.

[C. Cash]

I was pleasantly suprised when I got the new Gettysburg guide and on the cover are two kids...one with the Confederate Battle Flag T-shirt and grey Kepi and his brother with the Stars and Stripes/blue kepi. For sure they are marketing to both sides but it was refreshing to see them put that on the cover. I'm sure the've already recieved a number of letters about it. We live in strange times. I believe homeschool is one of the only real opportunities we have to save our country and our kids.

[El Mac]

Government, in general, is often like a malignant cancer sucking up more and more of its taxpayers money, relieving them of their freedoms, and growing larger every year.

How true. How sad.

[rock-steady]

Charge to the Sons of Confederate Veterans

"To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish. Remember, it is your duty to see that the true history of the South is presented to future generations."

Lt. General Stephen Dill Lee, Commander General,
United Confederate Veterans,
New Orleans, Louisiana, April 25, 1906.


"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit.

Abraham Lincoln
January 12, 1848.

[DixieBoy]

Hey guys - I've gotta be fast. Have a break between classes and give yet another final exam tonight between 6 and 9. Let me say that I really enjoy this gang here. I figure that I'll do way more learning than teaching, that's a safe bet.

Charles, you mentioned the strong influence of the Germans in the Texas hill country. As I read a bit more about those times in Texas, more of it all falls together. I remember reading how the Germans had actually established a fragile peace with the Comanche before 1840, but somehow it all fell apart. Probably the best book I've read specifically about the Comanche is T.R. Fehrenbach's "Comanche: Destruction of a People." The title was changed a few years back, but it's still the same book, and he wrote before political correctness infected everything. Some of the stuff that went on back then can still make your hair stand on end when you read about it. Something that struck me, as far as point of view goes, is the way the Comanche considered it perfectly normal to include stealing children when they were on killing and looting raids. They truly wondered what all the fuss was about. Two completely different worldviews. Of course, those clashed - bigtime - at the Council House Meeting in 1840, which was supposed to lead to peace.

For those unfamiliar with this incredible event, the Comanche were invited in to a council at San Antonio, for the purpose of discussing peace, and - as far as the white folks were concerned - getting back about a dozen or more white kids who'd been snatched up by the Comanche. The Comanche decided to bring the kids in piecemeal (not literally in pieces, but one at a time) in order to get more in trade for each one. They made a colossal mistake by bringing in Matilda Lockhart first. She'd had her nose completely burned off by Comanche women who'd taken pleasure in tormenting her, and the soles of her feet had been very badly burned to prevent escape. When Matilda testified to Army officers on the scene that there were a dozen more captives being held in camp about 20 miles away the Texans were furious. They put the grab on the chiefs (or tried to) and told the Comanche that the chiefs would be held until kids were returned. The Comanche proceeded to shoot their way out the council as fast as they could, and rode out of town. Of course, the captives were put to death soon after, and the whole thing was a huge mess. I believe that this event was the cause of The Great Comanche Raid of 1840, in which they rode all the way from central Texas to the coast, sacking Victoria and Linnville. It was said to be the biggest Comanche raid ever, with over 1,000 warriors taking part. All of this is wild stuff.

The book you mentioned, Rip Ford's Texas, has been on my gotta-get list for while now. Thanks for the hearty endorsement; I'll move it up to the top.

When things settle down just a bit for me I plan on asking a lot of questions here. See, I'm sort of a beginning handloader who's had his abode clobbered by hurricanes twice in last five years, and I've had to store gear that I'd set up, along with a nice bench. I'm finally ready again to rock and roll, but there are many questions I'd still like to ask. I think I'm at the right place. When it comes to the shooting I figure that this place has an incredible wealth of knowledge. I noticed that just cruising the posts for a few months.

I'll check back in later tonight. - DixieBoy

[RSY]

Probably the best book I've read specifically about the Comanche is T.R. Fehrenbach's "Comanche: Destruction of a People." The title was changed a few years back, but it's still the same book, and he wrote before political correctness infected everything.

I'll assume you've probably also read Fehrenbach's "Lone Star." That, as well as Webb's "Texas Rangers", is one my favorite Texas history books. Of course, the revisionists have been blasting Fehrenbach and his book for awhile, now. Oh well, I love it and still find it rings true.

Currently, I'm greatly enjoying James L. Haley's "The Buffalo War: The History of the Red River Indian Uprising of 1874." Highly recommended.

Scott

[Charles]

Dixieboy.. I have had Ferenbach's book on the Comanche for a good many years. His one volumn history of Texas...Lone Star is also good. He also wrote a little book entitled "Seven Keys to Texs" that purports to set out the seven cultural and historical keys to understanding Texas. This book has lots of critics.

Kirk... In my understanding the Stars and Bars is not the Confederate Battle Flag so much misused by racists and others. The Stars and Bars refers to the First National Flag. It should be noted that it was the First National flag we placed on the Confederate graves and not the battle flag.

[DixieBoy]

Howdy! Well, one of the longer days I've had in a while is over. I'm bushed, but glad to see that there are some great things going on here.

I snuck a peek at a post when I was home for a pit stop earlier today, from one of you guys who'd just scored two great looking old historical lever guns, a Martini-Henry and an old Winchester lever action shotgun. Gotta get another look at those goodies tonight. I don't own any really neat historial firearms like that yet, and if I did I'd probably take the phone off the hook for a day and just sit there and look at them.

Kirk mentioned quite a bit about the whole homeschooling thing and I wanted to let him know that I think it's incredible what the homeschoolers are doing these days. Homeschoolers are still discriminated against alot by the "edukashun" establishment, but it's been my experience that the homeschoolers I've met are typically the sharpest students in any given class. I've only been teaching as an adjunct now for 5 years, but I figure I've met about 2,500 to 3,000 students so far. The few dozen home school kids I've met have been ace students, and you can also see that these are really decent kids. Most of the younger guys I've come to know through shooting are either homeschooling their own kids, or going to church sponsored co-op type schooling. Either way, these kids are getting rock solid foundations that many of the public school kids are being deprived of.
Enough about that. You don't want me up on my soap box about "what's wrong with education today." Believe me.

When this week gets out of the way and all the semester stuff is done I want to post a couple info requests regarding handloading. For starters, I'm really interested in duplicating a factory load which my Marlin 1895 has consistently shot very well. It's the Federal load with the 300 gr. JHP.
I've only punched paper with it, but at the bench the Marlin would consistently put them into an inch, maybe an inch and a quarter. That might not get the benchrest shooters excited, but it sure made me smile.

I'll stop back tomorrow night and see what's up. Take care compadres. - DixieBoy

[KirkD]

Kirk... In my understanding the Stars and Bars is not the Confederate Battle Flag so much misused by racists and others. The Stars and Bars refers to the First National Flag. It should be noted that it was the First National flag we placed on the Confederate graves and not the battle flag.

My mistake. I was thinking of the Confederate Battle Flag. If it was the First National Flag you were placing on Confederate graves, then I am astonished that anyone would find that objectionable. That is really disappointing.