.45-70 vs. .444

[Grizz]

so you are saying the 444 has equal proformance at 50 yards as a 44 mag.i dont agree.on another topic if the 444 was designed after the 30-06 i wounder if they considered nameing it a 44-06?

no sir, that's not what I am saying. please read thru carefully.

at 50 yards many bullets will not withstand an impact with anything substantial traveling at the higher velocities available with the 444.

it's also a well known fact that bullets driven past a certain speed do not penetrate as well as the same bullet does slowed down.

so, at point blank range what I am saying is that the 405g bullet per my example will penetrate better from the handgun than from the 444. it's a simple test that's been repeated many times.

the reason I stopped carrying my .338 in Alaska around the big bears is because the bullets are driven too hard for bear encounters and will not give good performance as a stopper. it's a great round a 150 yards or 200 yards or with the right bullet at 400 yards on caribou say, but when the big bear is in your face there are better choices. that's the point I'm trying to make.

driving bullets FAST does not automatically translate to "more power" for every bullet at every distance. if the 405g from my handgun will give complete penetration on deer size game and cns penetration on bears at 50 yards, what does the 444's higher velocities gain you at 50 yards? certainly not more "power" unless it's going to give better results. which would be what, deader?

I am basing my POV on the results I obtained doing penetration tests with my firearms. It might be instructive for all of us if someone could duplicate the setup with a 444.

paper ballistics are nearly meaningless for purposes of this discussion...

Grizz

PS: on another firewood penetration test Blaine's 405g cast from his guide gun penetrated thru and thru once, but one bullet also didn't exit. His bullet is hitting the wood nearly twice the velocity. Velocity does not necessarily translate to "power". But the only way to know this for a fact is to do the testing.

[preventec47]

I think you are wrong to equate power with penetration. You act like
bullets always act like spears. A given bullet driven at much higher
velocities even if it didnt exit other side will dump much more energy
into the target making it more effective or to put another way
increasing the lethality of a poor shot. Better is a relative term,
while a 70 can shoot 500 or 600 gr bullets, so also the 444 can shoot
much lighter bullets. The point is they both have the same variety of options but with a big overlap in bullet weightsl. One has excess potential with
the lighter bullets and the other has excess potential with the heavier
bullets. I can think of several animals you would want to hunt
with 200 gr 444 pistol bullets in a way that you couldnt do with 70 govt
cartridges. The 444 could be a better small whitetail or pig hunter while
the govt 70 could be a better grizzly getter. Neither can be defined
as better until your objective is defined. If you dont think you will ever
hunt or see a grizzly or other dangerous animal and will be hunting
smaller stuff, the 444 would probably be a better rifle for you.

[Grizz]

I know, not everyone gets it. My bad, I'm just not a good enough 'splainer...

[meanc]

A given bullet driven at much higher
velocities even if it didnt exit other side will dump much more energy
into the target making it more effective or to put another way
increasing the lethality of a poor shot.

i'm not defending either cartridge, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something a little skewed there.

It's like someone before asking about driving a 200gr XTP at around 2000fps when their working velocities are only rated for < 1600fps.

Sure, it'll hit and dump all it's energy into the target, but what kind of wound will you have if that bullet hits bone or is a poor shot in the wrong spot.

What is the likelyhood of a quick kill and what is the likelyhood of being able to track the animal and to dispatch it?

Plus, most any poor shot can be lethal eventually; that day, that night, that week, or that month.

A poor shot that doesn't exit makes things a little harder for a humane kill and makes it a little harder to track.

So a poor shot is a poor shot no matter what.

I believe in a good size hole in AND a good size hole out from a properly placed shot.

Maybe I'm not explaining my thoughts properly though.

I guess I'm trying to say that using the right bullet at the right velocity paired with a proper shot, will bag the game humanely with minimal tracking 99% of the time.

And both cartidges are able to do that.

[preventec47]

To answer your question you are going to have a 6 inch hole instead
of a 1 inch hole all the way through. And that 6 inch hole is going
to have a much bigger immediate effect on the animal than a big
ole cast bullet passing through like a spear.
You are ignoring all the hundreds of studies of defensive ammo
that expands and stops the bad guys immediately due to internal
shock vs the ball ammo that passes right through and leaves a
good blood trail after the bad guy gets done killing you.
No, I understand fully your argument about driving bullets
faster than designed for and in super extreme cases like
if I wanted to kill three animals with one shot, I could see
the benefit of non expanding bullets passing through, but
to think there could be some lesser effectiveness because
a bullet explodes and creates a huge hole in the animal
is just crazy.

[buckeyeshooter]

I own a 444 and 3 45/70's. Performance is about the same with same bullet weights. I think the 45/70 recoils a bit harder with max loads. Both rounds however, have moved to the shelf from the time my 50 alaskan was finished.

[Modoc ED]

I don't think I made the case that the 444 is a stretched 44. While it isn't, it is, really, isn't it? Grizz

No it isn't. Not even close.

My argument was for the case -- not power. Power/effectiveness is a subject that .444 Marlin advocates and .45-70 advocates will never really come to terms or agreement on. However, there is nothing that a .45-70 can kill or stop that a .444 Marlin can't kill or stop.

[Montanan]

so you are saying the 444 has equal proformance at 50 yards as a 44 mag.i dont agree.on another topic if the 444 was designed after the 30-06 i wounder if they considered nameing it a 44-06?

The 30-06 was created in 1906, and hence was named as .30 cal - 1906 the year = 30-06, and the .444 Marlin was created in 1964, and who knows why Marlin just called it the .444 Marlin and well the ol 45-70 has been out for over 150 years give or take

The bottom line is shot placement and dead is dead.

[Grizz]

Power/effectiveness is a subject that .444 Marlin advocates and .45-70 advocates will never really come to terms or agreement on.

You got that right, and proved it right here:

However, there is nothing that a .45-70 can kill or stop that a .444 Marlin can't kill or stop.

Naturally you're entitled to believe this, but that assertion is wrong, wrong, wrong. Particularly if getting the killing done before the shooter is killed gets factored in...

But, it's not sharia here yet, so we still may disagree.

Grizz

[ScottT]

Why are you guys arguing over this?

[Nath]

Hmm, and here I am thinking my 30/30 was good enough
It is a waste of time comparing expanding pistol bullet performance on humans. Humans reason cause and effect better than any animal and are so handicapped by knowing what it means to have been shot.
I have seen to many deer with all their chest contents missing and still get nearly lost to ever reason that a larger wound channel is the solution to a less than perfect placement. Why do arrows work that cut just as wide as the broadhead?
The bottom line for me is; give me 30/30 or a 32/20, how about a 44/40 or a lttle bee even and a 444 or 45/70 and I'll bring home the bacon
Nath.

[Grizz]

Why are you guys arguing over this?

who's arguing? just banter before the ballgame starts...

[Grizz]

Good enough for sure Nath. Lots of times. But the topic doesn't have that much scope.

I love this topic. You see the other other side of it on the Africa hunting forums where the 45/70 is scoffed at, derided, and ridiculed, sometimes in the same sentence.

My observation earlier, I've never known someone to quit using his 30-06 because the 270 is nearly as good applies here. We don't often, or ever, hear of 458 Lott or 416 Rigby shooters shouting "eureka" and embracing the 444 as the equal and therefore better gun. I have known of hunters going from 270 to 30-06 though, that one after the guy was charged by two brown bears that voluntarily broke off the attack. OTOH, I've never known someone who was threatened by a brown bear to traipse around the woods after that with a smaller bullet.

The topic is "which is better". I don't see folks who've made full explorations of their 45/70s suddenly tossing them under the bed and proclaiming they've converted to the 444 as the better gun... that's all I've tried to say. Better for what, exactly...

Regards,

Grizz

[Nath]

I hear ya Grizz but, how would the guy that switched to a 30/06 from the 270 be any better of against bear attack? Surely it is his perception that he is better of. There will allways be somebody telling him he is under gunned. So therefore 444 vs 45/70 with reguard to which is better is folly. It is a classic case of more choice upsetting us. Years ago before any body worried about ft/lbs they just used what they had and it did it just the same. 86er has recently shown pics of fine large tough game animals he took with a 45/70, I'd expect the exact same photos had he done it with a 444.
Somebody recently defended their self against a bear with a 41M and many would argue he was wrong in his choice!
I for one have down sized from what I use to have and have seen used, ok we got no bear granted but a 30/30 has and can take bear, we have all read about it.
I think these issues are all in our heads and the critters just don't know any better
Nath.

[tman]

375 H&H, 444MARLIN, 458 WIN, and 45-70. , all using bullets constructed for penetrating big game. will all kill the same game, just as dead as the other. as long as thse bullets hold togther, they will penetrate and destroy vital organs, regardless of which label you put on it.

[Grizz]

how would the guy that switched to a 30/06 from the 270 be any better of against bear attack?

Yes, because you can shoot 220g bullets with tough jackets in 30-06. I know someone who has killed 50+ brown bears with that '06 load, but so far no one has volunteered that they've killed 50 of 'em with the 270.

Until I heard the details of a deer hunter who was eaten by a brown bear I was pretty cavalier about the guns I hunted with. After that I started paying attention to what happened on the business end of my rifle bullets, and making direct comparisons on differing target materials. It's just simple observation that the same thing DOES NOT happen with the various bullets.

That won't convince or confuse anyone who has already made up their minds and shut 'em.

I have posted penetration videos for a number of years and invited everyone to duplicate or exceed the results I got with ANYTHING. So far someone beat my best by one water jug, and that was with a 45/70 and a heavy bullet.

SO FAR, THE 444 FANS HAVE NEVER POSTED A VIDEO OF HOW FAR THEIR BULLETS WILL PENETRATE. I will be as happy as the 444 shooters if their "high power" loads out-penetrate the lil 'ol 45/70. ROFLMAO; REALLY

The same fanboys that assure us that there is no difference in performance have no evidence to support their statements.

Like I said, I love this topic and look forward to it sprouting up periodicly.

Come back,

[WCF3030]

I think we need Jim T's "Dead List" again.

[AJMD429]

Why are you guys arguing over this?

who's arguing? just banter before the ballgame starts...

'cuz it's FUN...

We all KNOW that either one works very well, and that the shooter is the biggest limiting factor, next the gun, the sights, the ammunition, etc., and that which 'cartridge' we're using isn't really THAT important, but...

...it's just FUN to argue about.

Like .270 vs. 30-06 (or vs. .280...!) or revolver vs. semiauto, or 22 LR vs. 22 WMR, etc. etc.