Barnes TSX for the 375 Win (updated)

[Old Savage]

handi is right about who wants these. I would like to be able to get enough for hunting loads for the Condor area here.

[Nath]

Just a thourght, what about some hollow basing to get your powder volume up again?
Nath.

[handirifle]

I did think about that too, but I do not think it would let the powder fill it very well, but not sure. Never shot HB bullets before.

That was my thought process anyway. Maybe someone with HB experience can chime in on that one.

I'm going to measure one of the Barnes TSX's in original form and see how the BC program rates it and compare that to Barnes' claim. I'm sure Barnes' computers have it (bullet design) down to the inth degree, but I want to see more, how MY bullet measuring stacks up.

I think I'll make one a boat tail and measure it as well, just to see.

Had to go buy some new drill bits and hack saw blades (precision tools) so I could continue my "research".

I wonder how much difference a soft plastic, round nosed, "plug" in the hollow point, would help ballistics and expansion?

[handirifle]

OK, been busy tonight. I don't want to come across, on these posts, like there isn't an idea I haven't come across. I know several times there've been suggestions and I've said, "I thought about that", but believe me, it's true. Anytime I have a spare moment in my head, this stuff is on my mind.

LOTS of ideas have come and gone, some because I wasn't sure they're doable (by me anyway) of practical, or how much the effort is worth.

Anyway, tonight I made a couple with the boattail design. Doing them AS IS, with my skill and equipment, is not practical.

OK let me begin, I measured the BC occording to this web site http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/calcbc/calcbc.htm#jackets
The same one I've used on all my measurements and I measure the Barnes TSX 270gr, in original form, at .316. Barnes rates the BC at .503, so it looks like my suspicions at first, were right on. I do not believe it's taking all things into consideration.

I'll just have to find a more accurate way to measure it, later on.

OK, first the pics, then details.





The top pic is (left to right), the original 185gr version, then the previous generation 3 203gr version, except this one has been boattailed.

Next is what I think will be the newest model of the 235gr, (Gen 4?) but this one has a boattail (BC of .169 according to the website) and weighs 195gr. This was made from a 270gr, but based as close as possible to how I think a 235 would turn out, in the Gen 3 version.

I added the boattail based on suggestions. By the way the bullet LOOKS butchered, because it is. It's hard to trim that boattail and it jammed the lathe several times, which gouges the lands on the bullet. This is something that can be worked out, but it always happens in the first versions.

The next bullet is the 215gr gen 2 model, and lastly, an original 270gr Barnes TSX, for a comparison of just how much it's been modified.

The bottom pic is of the (left to right) the 185gr, the 203gr and the 195gr bullets, and a loaded round, primer end, with the open point facing you.

The open tip of the 195gr is .183, the OD of the tip is .225, and the dia of the primer is .210. Not enough difference, to me, to warrant concern over detonation. Please let me know, your thoughts on that one.

The ID of the Gen 3 is the same, OD of the tip is .250, for reference.

[handirifle]

Finally got a trip back to the range. Using the Gen 1, 185gr bullets, cause that's what was loaded. Will post pics as soon as camera battery gets charged. Went to take the pics and it just died on me.

Using my Win 94 BB, 375, and the Williams FP with the firesight front post (red fiber optic), I first let fly at 50yds, with the forend resting on bags, and the buttstock against my shoulder, unsupported by anything but me!

From the previous trip I noticed it was about 12" high and 6" left, so I adjusted the sight before firing a shot. I took about 5-6 shots to get it where I wanted it, then to an unushot target for group.

Get this, the first shot was about 1 1/4" low and 1/2" left. Second shot, looked like I missed the target (?? ?????) No way, I'm thnking, a quick look through the telescope got me all giddy. The first hole, was just BIGGER. The third shot just enlarged the previous hole.

Measured edge to edge, it's .540" and that figures out to .165" (.540 - .375, right?). After working on my other rifles I took a long, eventually moving out to 100yds. Now thing are gonna be dicey for me, cause even after LASIK surgery, and corrective lenses, the very slight Astigmatism still shows up when looking through a peep sight at a 2" bull's eye at 100yds.

Which dot am I aiming at?

So, I moved over to the 6" Shoot N See target, and plant the post bottom center. First two shots are just a smige over 1" apart, and I pulled the third and it went high. Still all three were a 2.75" group. Folks, me and peep sights are not good friends, so this is about the best I've ever done.

If I hadn't pulled the third, I'd most likely have gotten about a 1.5" group. I had three rounds left, but I want to save those JUST IN CASE I get a chance to go after a piggie, before I get others loaded up and tested.

[Tycer]

That's awesome Handi. I've really enjoyed this thread.

I know nothing of how to use a lathe. Would it be possible to cut cherries in both the shape of the ogive and the boat tail? Kinda like the opposite of a cherry for cutting molds.

[handirifle]

Tycer
I knew nothing about lathes either before starting this project. Mine was a christmas present.

I've enjoyed this project more than any other, so far.

As an example, what the heck is a cherrie ?

If I knew what it was I could answer the other questions .

[Gryphon Black]

A cherry is a cutting tool that is cut to the shape of a bullet. Think of it like a router bit for steel.
They sandwich it between to blanks and then turn it, cutting half into one block and half into the other. When you take the two halves apart, you have a bullet mold.
The thought was, can you get a tool custom cut to reproduce each end of your bullet?
You almost certainly can, if I may speculate, as there are custom shops around that do that sort of thing. In fact, I would try one of the custom bullet mold outfits, as they are in the business of bullets, and this is a distinct niche market. I bet they could even tell you a more efficient way to produce your finished shape.
I'll leave it up to the others to suggest who would be good to talk to about that....
This is gettin' good, huh?

Gryphon

[handirifle]

Surely lots of different ways to skin this cat.

Here's the 50 pic, and 100yd as promised.

First the 50yd


Then the 100yd target. The three big holes are the 375. One up high and two beside each other.

[handirifle]

Howdy! Bet ya'all thought I fell off the edge of the earth, well I didn't but am in the middle of WAY too many things.

Anyway, I was readin in a shooting magazine the other day and read an article about casting lead bullets, and making them easier to expand in handguns using slow velocities. BINGO!

At least I hope so. The writer, tells of several different ideas he tried, and two things caught my attention.
First, he used a 90 deg countersink and beveled out the mouth of the hollow point bullet. His HP's were not opening at the very slow velocities he was using.

The second idea was to fill the HP cavity with parafin wax.

I am going to try both of these ideas on the TSX bullets I have and see what happens. I plan on testing three versions. The open HP filled with parafin, then the HP and beveled edge, then the HP with a beveled edge and filled with parafin. I will take pics of all three results.

Sorry for being off line for so long, just too many irons in the fire.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Have you considered filling with Bismuth instead of Tin or Parafin to bring the weight up?

[handirifle]

Have you considered filling with Bismuth instead of Tin or Parafin to bring the weight up?

rimfire
Actually I have. I have considered many types of material, including tin, but I think that would be too hard to promote decent expansion. I have no experience with Bizmuth and am waiting to see how some other tests ffrom other users, pan out.

From what I read it's brittle and that may not work well, except for initial impact. I suspect the TSX's, if I can get them to expand properly, will provide outstanding penetration and tissue damage, I just need to get them to open properly.

I am also going to "X" the opening of the hollow point to "assist" in the expansion. My first goals are to make them open easily, THEN to make sure they are still accurate.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I am also going to "X" the opening of the hollow point to "assist" in the expansion.

You're speaking of skiving I believe.

I agree that a raw Bismuth core would not be nearly as malleable as Lead. It would help restore your overall balance and perhaps allow you to produce a shorter round for the weight. I wonder if there isn't a Bismuth alloy that would improve its malleability at the cost of a slight density reduction. I'll look around and see if there's an obvious one.

One question about your lathe work ... are you feeding copper round stock through the headstock and chuck as you make these or are you cutting some length of stock and just chucking them up in the front for the lathe work? Just curious if you have a lathe with a large enough through hole to accept the feedstock through the headstock and chuck.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Something just dawned on me but you've probably already though about this. I skimmed the beginning of this thread again because it's been so long but I'll throw this out there just in case.

What if the bullet had a shorter front cavity with a necessarily shallower 'V' cavity but also had a decent sized rear cavity with a poured Bismuth rear core. My thought there is that the expanding part of the bullet would remain all copper while the Bismuth rear core would bring the weight way up. The rear core would act as it does in a Swift A-Frame type of bullet where it's just there to improve sectional density and provide a driving mass for penetration.

You know, come to think of it, Barnes may already make something like that. I should probably go over there and look. Although if they do, they probably only do it for a few of the most popular calibers. Anyway, just thinking out loud.

UPDATE

I went and looked ... it's called the MRX by Barnes but it has a polymer tip. Otherwise, it looks like an intersting design for a lead free levergun round ... without the polymer top of course.

[Modoc ED]

handirifle -

How heavy a bullet are you after?

What if you tried Barnes' .375 Banded Solids. They are made out of a copper/zinc alloy (lead free) and come in a 270gr weight and a 300gr weight.

Now I realize that they don't expand BUT they sure as heck ought to penetrate hide, muscle, sinew, fat, BONE and whatever else they might encounter.

Ought to be good enough for anything you'd ever encounter in the lower 48 and Alaska.

Even though they don't expand, a .375" hole is nothing to scoff at.

I don't know if I'll try it but I've been thinking about "paper patching" one of their (Barnes) .404 Jeffrey (.422 DIA) Banded Solids to make them ..430 DIA for my .444 Marlins. I think it would be a hoot.

I don't like the CA lead ban one bit but it has prompted some never before thought of bullet jury-rigging, work ups, experiments, and just plain ole ingenuity, craftsmanship, and ideas.

Keep on plugging. Eventually, we'll get it down right and eventually, companies will start making heavy (non-toxic) bullets for us lever action guys.

[handirifle]

rimfire, was gonnat tell you about the MRX but see you already found out. They are PRICEY!!

I'm actually useing Barnes .375 cal TSX bullets and making them hollow points for use in the lever, but trying to get them to open.

You got me thinking about the Bizmuth base (ie, MRX) setup and am wondering now about a thick walled 3/8" (.375") copper tubing, filled with Bizmuth in the base, but with a hollow point nose suitable for leverguns.

Would be ideal if the copper were about twice as thick as normal, and I could drill out the base part, pour in the Bizmuth and form the tip.

My lathe is a Harbor Freight 7 X 14". I have two chucks, the larger one will allow about 33/4" through it.

Hmmmm

Modoc
These have been ranging from about 180gr to 220gr (If I remember correctly) and the heavier ones would surely do the trick. I COULD make my own solids, but just cutting off the tips of these and truing the face flat. Not sure if a solid is CA legal to hunt with, but I'd still like an expanding bullet.

The quest continues.

[Modoc ED]

Nothing sez you can't dish out the front end of a solid and X the tip of the bullet for expansion. Isn't that what you are going to do to your TSX bullets -- X the tip of the bullet? By using the solids, you get weight (270gr or 300gr).

You'll never know unless you try.

[handirifle]

Well the solids are not copper, they're brass and I believe it is lighter than copper, thus longer. Either way, I think those are more than the TSX but don't quote me on that.

I have some 300gr TSX's that are the starting point, but by the time the tip is cut off, then hollowed out, it comes down a bit.

[gary rice]

WHOA!!!! Gives me the idea to try some of the .338 TSX for my 33wcf

Yep, that's the same way I got started in the project. My guess is something in the 200gr ought to serve you nicely. Based on what I've seen, it will take something about 250gr to get to that weight. I've averaged about a 20% loss in the making process.

Points to help, in case you take it on. Try to keep as much of the bullet as possible OUTSIDE the case. Leaves more room for powder. The closer to the IN CASE length you can get to one of the comperable lead bullet weight, the more you can use that weight as a reference for load data.

Also, make sure to test cycle a loaded dummy round and make sure it feeds and chambers correctly. I tried to just cut the tip off and true it up, then load it. It would not feed, so I had to round out the ogive a bit.

Also, when you cut the tip, use caution, as I have learned, cause the copper will deform easily. For that, I've made bullet holding blocks made from 3/4 X 3/4" aluminum, drilled to the appropriate depth (determined by trial and error) and clamped in the vice to hold the bullet. I can post pics of mine to give you an idea.

Finally, make sure the hollow point is wide enough and deep enough to open on impact. In my case, it's an educated guess.

handrifle,

was it you i spoke to about several months ago about using the barnes tsx 450 grn bullet in the 45-70? if so did you get to do any work on this? im aware that the 450 tsx is made mainly for the 458 magnum. Like you've been saying, the bullet length presents a problem for loading all copper bullets.

[Modoc ED]

Well the solids are not copper, they're brass and I believe it is lighter than copper, thus longer. Either way, I think those are more than the TSX but don't quote me on that.

Yep, that's so. Copper + zinc = Brass (Lots more copper than zinc in the Barnes solid)

The point is they are lead free and can be altered to expand somewhat.

Just my .02¢

[handirifle]

WHOA!!!! Gives me the idea to try some of the .338 TSX for my 33wcf

Yep, that's the same way I got started in the project. My guess is something in the 200gr ought to serve you nicely. Based on what I've seen, it will take something about 250gr to get to that weight. I've averaged about a 20% loss in the making process.

Points to help, in case you take it on. Try to keep as much of the bullet as possible OUTSIDE the case. Leaves more room for powder. The closer to the IN CASE length you can get to one of the comperable lead bullet weight, the more you can use that weight as a reference for load data.

Also, make sure to test cycle a loaded dummy round and make sure it feeds and chambers correctly. I tried to just cut the tip off and true it up, then load it. It would not feed, so I had to round out the ogive a bit.

Also, when you cut the tip, use caution, as I have learned, cause the copper will deform easily. For that, I've made bullet holding blocks made from 3/4 X 3/4" aluminum, drilled to the appropriate depth (determined by trial and error) and clamped in the vice to hold the bullet. I can post pics of mine to give you an idea.

Finally, make sure the hollow point is wide enough and deep enough to open on impact. In my case, it's an educated guess.

handrifle,

was it you i spoke to about several months ago about using the barnes tsx 450 grn bullet in the 45-70? if so did you get to do any work on this? im aware that the 450 tsx is made mainly for the 458 magnum. Like you've been saying, the bullet length presents a problem for loading all copper bullets.

Yes, I was, and since I haven't been able to do anything on my 375 project, it's all been on hold. However, once I get the issues resolved with the 375 the same actions will apply to the 458 dia bullets as well. It would be just a matter of different sizes.

Went shooting with some friends today, but didn't have time to prep any 375 cases for a test. I'm getting caught up with some of the distracting projects, and will be able to put more time in on this one, again.

[handirifle]

Have you considered filling with Bismuth instead of Tin or Parafin to bring the weight up?

Advice taken.

Well time to resurrect this old thread. No new pics, but I do have a different path to walk on. I recently purchased a couple pounds of bismuth to experiment with. For those unfamiliar with bismuth, it has virtually the same density/weight as lead. It is more brittle than lead, but melts at a lower temp.

My thinking is, since it's more brittle, I will at first TRY just some plain cast versions and see if or how well they expand. I suspect they will either fragment or not expand. If that is the case, then I will pursue another direction. That is to make a jacketed hollow point bullet, that will have a super thick jacket through most of the bullet, but a thinner jacket up front, designed to expand rapidly, back to where the bismuth begins.

If one of these ideas works, this will give me a hunting weight, non lead, bullet that is no longer than the same weight bullet in lead. Well, maybe that won't be completely true, cause IF I end up with the hollow point idea, then the hollow cavity will lengthen it a bit, but it shouldn't be as bad as the Barnes bullets, thus allowing me to stuff more power behind it .

[handirifle]

Well, I poured some of the bismuth today, mixed it 80/20 with zinc. It cast OK, not great, but that could possibly change with practice at it. For some reason, after all the moving we did in the last two years, I have misplaced/lost my 38-55 mold, stuff. So I poured the samples in .458 just to see.

I had read that bismuth shrank when it cooled, but if it does, it doesn't much, at all. Earlier in this thread, I showed some bullets cast from lead free solder (zinc/tin mix) and these cast about the same, and look about the same, but there is a big difference. The solder cast bullets (as I call them) were hard as nails. I beat one of them hard with a hammer, and all it did was bend.

The bismuth/zinc combo, was another story. After the first medium hard whack (very scientific here ) I noticed a crack in the nose. A couple more whacks, and the bullet fragmented into 3 pieces, at least that was what I found. These hammer hits are nowhere near the impact force the bullet would make when shot at even mild 38-55 velocities. So, as I first suspected, the core needs to be protected.

In speaking with Dave Corbin, today, he suggested reducing jackets meant for a .429 dia bullet (which he sells for $35 per 1000) which would provide a thick base wall and once the core is inserted, place an upside down 9mm drawn jacket over top of the core, thus ending up with a partition type bullet. The nose would be hollow for fast opening at all velocities.

This equipment is expensive (the press alone is about $600 ) so in the interim, if I have to make some, it will be from the solder. At least those will not fragment. Now the cast bismuth MIGHT make a nice varmint bullet. Imagine shooting a coyote with the 375? It would probably leave 3 big exit wounds.

[handirifle]

OK, it's been WAY too long since I did any work on this, so today I got out and did a little bit more. Went in a slightly different direction from the original idea, that was to modify a Barnes 375 cal TSX. That has proven tougher than I first thought. At least with what I have on hand, tools wise, to work with.

After doing some research, I realized that bizmuth is virtually the same weight as lead. It it very brittle, so it can in no way be a direct replacement. My thinking has gone in the direction more of a partition style bullet, with the bizmuth partitioned off, to prevent it from breaking up either in the barrel, or in the target (or game animal).

What I did today, was the first step to see if the idea has any merit. I am glad to say it does. I made three blanks from soft drawn 3/8" (.375") copper tubing. the first one I started off thinking I could just use the tubing and a "plug" made from 100% copper. ( I know that is not bizmuth, but I will get there) so I cut a 30 cal TSX and made it a cylinder and stuffed it down the 1" long piece of tubing and weighed it. I didn't record that weight, but it was under 180gr, and too light for my plan. After thinking it over a bit I heated up the casting pot,with the bizmuth in it, and filled the rest of the space in that same tubing with bizmuth and weighed it again. BINGO!! It was now 267.4 gr. Now that was more like it. (see the center bullet in pics below)



In this one you can see the slight dome it made on the first casting. (center)



Looking at the pics above, you can see the second pour with the one on the left (bottom pic). That is the tubing filled with just bizmuth. It weighed in at 279.8 gr. Now we're in the weight class that is very practical, and would let the ole 375 really shine. On the right, is one that is closer to what the actual final product might end up like. You can see the one on the right is open on the top. That will be the hollow point area of the final design. The bullet on the right weighs in at 229.3 gr as is.

In the next pic I did a simple sketch of the 4 steps I think will be necessary to make these bullets.



The first step will be to score the top end of the INSIDE of the tubing about a 1/4" down to aid in expansion. The second step will be to force a "core jacket" (possible a .308 size) into the tubing about 2/3 the way in, with the open end in the bottom of the bullet. The third step will be to force the nose of the bullet into a cone creating the ogive, as yet to be determined. The forth step will be to fill the bottom of the bullet with the bizmuth. This design should yield a bullet in the 220gr weight range. I would love more, and it might still be possible, but I think that since the bizmuth is so fragile, it has to be protected, or it will fragment quickly, especially if contacting substantial resistance, like a shoulder bone.

I will also try this with lead free solder, but I think it will come in lighter. The difference is the lead free solder is far more durable, and I might be able to just fill in the tubing without the core jacket, and that MIGHT make it a little heavier. I am going by California game laws that require an "expanding" bullet. There is no amount of expansion that is dictated, so even if the front of the bullet only opens, say, 30% larger than bullet diameter, then it will still be legal and lethal. I would still prefer to see something that nearly doubles the bullet diameter.

I will need to acquire some heavy pieces of steel to make my "dies" and some sort of heavy duty press to run them through. All this has to be done on a retirees budget (meaning not much moolah), but at least now I am going in a direction that I think is very doable, and very practical.

As for cost, bizmuth is pretty expensive at about $13-15 a pound, but I will have to see how much is required per bullet to make some sort of assessment on that. The fact of the matter is, that there is no alternative on the market for the 375 or 38-55's for that matter, at least not in the lead free areas.

[JReed]

Glad to see you still working on this.

[handirifle]

Filled a 1" tubing with the lead free solder, just to compare. It weighed in at 216.9gr, or almost 60gr less than a comparable bizmuth filled one. No pic cause it looks just like the bizmuth one.

[handirifle]

Been conversing with some folks on the mini lathe forums about making the proper bullet dies, for pressing my .375 jacket to my desired shape. I now have some sense of how to accomplish this feat.

I will post pictures of my progress when I get started on this portion of it. Currently my design idea is to, hopefully, be able to form, in one step, the outside jacket, pressed into a hollow point with serrations cut into the INSIDE of the nose cone.

We will see if my idea makes it to reality.

[handirifle]

Well a minor update. Due to pressing issues at home here, I was delayed once again, but today I picked up a 3ft section of 7/8 x 14, threaded rod. I plan on making some of the necessary dies from this. I realize that they MIGHT have to be hardened, but I will cross that bridge if, and when it becomes necessary. At any rate, I will have the ability to design it the way I want, at an affordable (BIG issue for me since retiring) method of accomplishing my goals.

I'd LOVE to be able to just order the stuff from Corbin, but his is a high dollar operation, most likely worth every penny, but out of my league for now.

My pressing issues, are almost complete, (tomorrow hopefully) and I will begin work on designing and building my dies. I will post pics and details as I do so.

Sorry to keep ya hanging, and not giving a lot more info, but it's what I have for now.

[Tycer]

Great thread. Thanks for the update.

[handirifle]

Been working on the die, sorry my favorite camera broke, but will take cell phone pics tomorrow, and upload. It takes crappy ones in low light.

Anyway, here is a Word drawing of what I hope it will turn out like. If someone sees a major flaw in my design, let me know, please.



In the drawing, beginning on the outside, the dark squiggly lines are the threads . Sorry no CAD programs here Next in is the die itself with a .375 dia hole drilled about 3/4 of the way up. The smooth sections at the top and bottom, have the threads cut off for handling purposes.

At the top of the .375 hole, you see a grayed out section, and a grayed shaft sticking out the top through a 3/16" dia hole drilled center die. The section with the curved bottom has the shaft attached to it, (actually it's one piece). This section will slip into the die from the bottom and be used to shape the bullet nose ( I hope) and the shaft out the top, will be used to hammer the bullet back out, if necessary.

The die is about 2 1/4" long, for no particular reason other than it should be long enough to do what I need, and have enough threads to lock it on the press with a die nut. The bullet, or jacket, will be forced into the shaping area with a plunger I will make that will probably be about .373" or whatever it takes for smooth, but not tight fit. The head of it will be sized and shaped to fit in the shaft of the press, where the case holder would normally go. This is a RCBS reloading press.

Currently, I have the die body cut, and the threads removed where depicted, and the 3/16" center die hole drilled. Next I will drill out the .375 (3/8") main section, and I need to either buy, or make a tool to cut the top of that hole perfectly flat. I want this so it will not bind itself up in a tapered hole. I think it might bind, if the hole is tapered, when all the pressure to shape the bullet is applied.

I realize the press is probably lightweight and the die might be soft, but it is currently all I can afford, and I want to see what works and what doesn't.

I may make several different inserts (the grayed section) for different jobs. One might be to force skived or cut lines on the inside of the bullet (if I use the Barnes bullets) or jacket, to enhance bullet expansion. In that case, they will not have a cupped section, but rather a shaft with cutting edges on it that will be forced into the top of the bullet or jacket.

OK there ya have my current progress, suggestions, or criticisms?

[handirifle]

Gots some pics today, and did a little more work.

The first pic was where I stopped last night, The second pic is my lathe in action (whoa impressive, right ) and the last is with the hole drilled out with the 3/8" drill, which ended up being only a .360" hole. That brings me to my current stopping point. The hole came out at .360" and I need to figure out how to get it to .375". Others have mentioned "honing" but I am not sure the process for this. Need to do some more research.

[handirifle]

OK, the Lee mold arrived, it is a slight diversion from the original goal, but will try to run at the same speed with all possibilities. Casting with the new mold, it throws lead free solder bullets at .380" dia and a poorly weigh in of 167gr, this from a 250gr mold. A 100% pour of bizmuth, yields a bullet of 238gr and .382" dia, still below lead, but I have not poured a lead cast with it yet, to be fair. I have read that bizmuth expands as it cools so this seems to be the case here.

I did try a mixture of solder/bizmuth and that yielded a 235gr bullet. I opened the mold too soon and they had not set up yet, so the bullets were too messed up to measure the dia. These bullets take quite a while to cool to a solid, I think mainly due to low melting point and the mold being still too warm.

My plan on these, is still ahead. I plan on copper coating them, since I am afraid that with the low melting point it will shed a lot of bore fouling on it's way down the barrel. The other issue is I need to resize them below the .375" that they should end up as, to allow for the copper coating.

My first drilling of my home made die, was at .360" if I remember, and that might be a good starting point. I just hope it doesn't deform them too badly.

[handirifle]

OK, first off, an apology is due because I know I jump all over the place, but hey, thats how my head works, and since we seem to be an inseparable team........you get the idea.

Anyway, the last bit of rambling around that my brain did has to do with this whole jacketed bullet thing. I did acquire the necessary stuff to copper plate my cast bullets, and WILL do some of that, but in the meantime another idea rolled around inside my head, long enough for some of it to cause actual action.

My thought was to take the bullets I had used to write my "Elk bullet" article on my website, specifically, the Hornady 270gr spire point, flat base 375 bullet. I explain in the article how I make them suitable for leverguns by cutting the tips off, but that was way before the morons in charge of this state did the dirty politics method of banning lead. What i came up with was wondering if I could melt the lead out of the jacket of one of these and re cast it full of a Bizmuth/tin combo. The tin, is to keep the bizmuth from shattering, and is at about a 3% level.

Anyway, I took the remaining one bullet I had left, but the tip off and proceeded to heat it with a propane torch. Voila! The lead dribbled out and from what I can see, it all came out. Nothing but copper inside. .

So far so good.

Next I heated the casting pot, and filled the case with the combo metal.

One thing about these bullets, in their original form, was my Winnie really liked them.

Well, here's what it looks like.



The discoloration, which I cleaned most of it off, is from the torch. I guess I need to get another box of these, and make up a batch, and make sure they do not act like overgrown varmint bullets, on impact. In current form, they cast out at 232gr. If they all cast just like that I would be very happy indeed.

Without looking WAY back in the thread, I believe it was Swany that kept harping (said lovingly ) at me to make or modify a mold to just cast them into a piece of copper tubing. I did try that, and it works, but is more work, currently. I didn't really have the proper mold to make it like I should. That's when I got diverted into this idea.

Looking at Midway, I see these bullets are about $.50 each, not counting shipping. With the bizmuth added, they will be right around $1-1.10 each, not counting, of course my labor to make them lead free. Not quoting numbers here for selling them, I have no intention of doing that, but rather for cost comparison with other methods and bullet brands.

When I get more, and can test them I will update this thread, once again.

[handirifle]

Does anybody have a possibly better method to get them hot enough to melt the lead out and not use a torch? Don't want to use my casting pot, cause right now it has bizmuth in it and don't want the lead to get mixed up in it.

[JFE]

You might want to try placing the bullet in a casting ladle and heating it on the surface of your casting pot, obviously taking care not to contaminate the pot with lead.

Take a look at the swaging forum on the castbooilts site. There they use 9mm and 223 brass for forming 375 cal jackets and pretty sure someone there also makes bullet forming dies.

FWIW Woodleigh make their Hydrostatc (monometal) bullets in a size to suit the 375 Win and for an order large enough (i think 500 min) will make a run of special size/weight bullets. From a 375 Win these bullets have routinely put down Asiatic water buffalo and have incredible penetration.

[handirifle]

I will look, but the cost of most of the dies is beyond my fixed income range, sadly. I looked at the woodleigh web site and there is no mention of being used in the 375 Win. Their "hydro stabilized" bullets look like they might work, but I'm not sure how well they would feed in a levergun. The protected core ones have lead in them, and that's a no-no for here.

I cannot afford to buy 500 of ANY bullet, much less one I am not sure will work in my gun. I couldn't really afford to buy 100 of them since they are over $1 each.

Thanks for the idea on the ladle, I don't think I want to risk it over the pot, but over another heat source might work. I may have to rig up something to set them in to get them hot enough and be able to pour out the lead, OR I'll do it one at a time, not clean them, and call 'em the "black death" bullets .

At any rate, I need to find a box locally so I can test my theory. Oh yes, according to CA fish and game regs, the bullets have to be expanding.

[handirifle]

OK found a dealer that had a box of the Hornady's in stock, for LESS than online , finally, for once. Anyway, will get time tomorrow to play around with them. Will make up about 8-10 and figure out something to build to test them in.

I was thinking of some sort of long, as in 4-5ft, rectangular box, that holds water and try shooting through some medium like maybe an inch of paper or so, before hitting the water. Gotta think about that one a while. I don't have enough paper to fill it with wet news print either.

I saw a picture somewhere about a the FBI, years ago, that tested in two vertically stacked metal barrels, with the bottom out of the top one. They were welded together, and filled with water. The guy hung out a 2nd story window and shot down into it. Looked crazy but it worked. I don't have any 2 story building here, so that is out.

[El Chivo]

OK found a dealer that had a box of the Hornady's in stock, for LESS than online , finally, for once. Anyway, will get time tomorrow to play around with them. Will make up about 8-10 and figure out something to build to test them in.

I was thinking of some sort of long, as in 4-5ft, rectangular box, that holds water and try shooting through some medium like maybe an inch of paper or so, before hitting the water. Gotta think about that one a while. I don't have enough paper to fill it with wet news print either.

I saw a picture somewhere about a the FBI, years ago, that tested in two vertically stacked metal barrels, with the bottom out of the top one. They were welded together, and filled with water. The guy hung out a 2nd story window and shot down into it. Looked crazy but it worked. I don't have any 2 story building here, so that is out.

You could bury your barrels in the ground and shoot down into them. I believe police departments use something like this indoors to test rifling marks. Then they lift a pan to recover the undamaged bullets. Maybe make yourself a small deck over it with a holder to make sure you shoot straight down, and maybe a remote control triggering device so you can stand back.

[handirifle]

You could bury your barrels in the ground and shoot down into them. I believe police departments use something like this indoors to test rifling marks. Then they lift a pan to recover the undamaged bullets. Maybe make yourself a small deck over it with a holder to make sure you shoot straight down, and maybe a remote control triggering device so you can stand back.

When I first saw this part I was thinking, WHAT???? Bury the rifle barrels? I guess it pays to READ THE WHOLE THING STUPID, me not you. That's actually a good idea, BUT, I have no way to dig it. I guess without the remote I should wear a rain suit huh?

Now I DO have an old hand dug well out back, but there are rocks about 3-4 ft down, that the previous owner felt the need to put there. Otherwise the well is 12ft deep. I wanted to pull the rocks out the first year be bought here, it was dry then, and I got quite a few out. It was almost to the top when I first bought the place. It's been full of water ever since.

I use a box stuffed tightly full of plastic grocery bags to stop arrows, works outstanding. I wonder how well, say 6ft of that would do to stop bullets? Has anyone ever tried that before?

[El Chivo]

I've seen in a movie (can't remember which one) the police department's indoor version, they fired straight down into a water tank, then crank up a tray that's in the bottom to get the bullet.

I also remember from the shooting instructor at Boy Scout camp that bullets shed their velocity very quickly after they hit water, so a person just 18 inches under water is safe from .50 cal strafing. Not something I care to test out myself, but there you are.

I think a water tank would probably be the safest. But that is to recover bullets with rifling marks undamaged. You may want to see performance in flesh, which is a different thing.

One thing I ran across that might be useful. There is something called hide glue, which luthiers use for guitars and violins and other fine instruments. It's made from ground-up animal hide, and you mix it with water and heat it.

Not long ago I was working on a ukulele and mixed up a batch of this hide glue. It comes as crystals, you mix it with hot water. I ended up not needing all I mixed, so I let the extra sit in its container. After a week or so it became a gel with a kind of rubbery texture. Quite tough, but not brittle. It felt like an animal product, and in fact I had to pitch it because it got moldy like food you leave out.

This might be a good shooting medium for testing bullets intended to go into flesh. And it would be easy to mold to the shape you want. Instead of the small can I mixed, instead, mix up a big batch and pour into an oatmeal carton - 4" diameter and 1 foot deep, about like a deer. Shoot that, and put a box of sand behind it to catch the bullet. Then you would see what happens to your bullet in flesh, more or less.

[Nath]

With your maching skills handi how about the making of home made swaging tools.
Is this of interest;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaQka-or ... re=related

N.

[handirifle]

Nath
I had started down that road (seems like I've been on a LOT of roads on this project) messed the first one up, and came up with this idea in the meantime. I may still pursue the swaging die idea, later on, but I want to test this out first, since it is WAY easier.

El Chivo
The hide glue sounds like a decent idea. I know at times it's pricey though. But the "make one a foot long and stop it in sand" idea has a lot of merit as far as costs go. Seems I just read the other day, about someone that came up with a substitute for hide glue that had the same properties. Hmmmmm now where did I read that?

Oh, by the way, this is mostly for Griff, I also filled one of the jackets with lead free solder, no bizmuth. The Bizmuth/solder mixed bullets weigh in right around 215-220gr, while the jacket filled with just solder weighed 188gr. Still, a 190gr bullet, pushed to about 2400fps ought to do pretty well on a deer, and ought to be good out to about 150yds.

I plan on testing it when I test the others, so I will report. To make the solder filled one, once I used the torch to melt out the lead, I just set the jacket on a metal base with the open end up, and kept the torch on it while I fed the solder down the hole. It took about 3-4 seconds till it overflowed, and I set it aside to cool. It looks just like the others, just weighs a little bit less.

Keep in mind, if I were to take the Winnie out of state to hunt, I would most likely just use the modified Hornady's with the lead core. My rifle really liked them and they expanded picture perfect.

[handirifle]

OK made some progress, learned a bit more as well. I tested the following types, copper jacket filled with cast solder/bizmuth combo with about 5% solder, not enough as it turned out. Also tested copper jacket with 100% melted solder. Next tested a 196gr Barnes TSX I made, and tested cast solder bullets, no bizmuth.

All testing was done shooting from about 10 feet into the most scientific media I could come up with, soft dirt.

All shots were shot through chronograph, set about 5ft from muzzle. At a later time/date I will load these same bullets and shoot at estimated impact velocities, ie. say at 100 and 150yds, based on my "best guess" of the bullets actual BC and plugged into my ballistics software. I will post those numbers here, before I load and shoot the low velocity rounds. What I wanted to see, is twofold. First, how well would they stand up to extremes like close range shot, possibly hitting big bone, and how well they expand at normal impact scenarios.

There were some surprises and some disappointments.

The first picture, below.



Starting from the left are the remains of the following bullets, 100% solder melted into copper jacket, started at 188gr. Next are two of the same design, with 5% solder 95% bizmuth, melted into copper jacket. starting weight 225gr.

As you can see, all three jackets separated, big disappointment there. I was hoping at least one of them would have somewhat stayed together. All ended up weighing about 75gr. The fragments in the backround are what was left of the bizmuth cores. The larger of the two weighed a paltry 80gr. Velocities, left to right were, 2370, 2036, 2041. All from charges of H4198. The first was 36gr (C), and the other two were 32gr.

So, back to the reload room.

Next I loaded up one the TSX's I had modded. This one weighed 196gr, with a deep hollow point and skiving done on the inside. This would be real hard to consistently reproduce, but I wanted to see if it performed better than previous tests of the TSX. Then for kicks, I loaded two bullets cast from 100% solder at 166gr each, no gas check, I will explain why later. Again all shot into the same media, same distance and chronoe'd.

some surprises here



Again, left to right, the Barnes TSX, the two cast solder bullets. Velocities, left to right were, 2250, 2455, and 2460.

I was pleasantly surprised at these results. First, the TSX performed at near text book performance. as you can see it mushroomed very well, and retained weight was 193gr. Only 3gr lost! Next were the 166gr cast bullets, they retained a weight of 108 and 97.4gr. Not much mushrooming going on there but I am sure on a broadside deer, it would have most likely given either complete, or near complete penetration. Again, H4198 was used, with 36gr used in all three. This load is well below max for H4198 and a 200gr bullet. The max load listed was 38gr.

I didn't try to gas check the cast bullets, because I think I will cast some and copper plate them, then size to fit my rifle and test again.

Still learning.

[handirifle]

Oh, by the way, the TSX load DID NOT cycle through. It was too long. Odd, since I have cycled lots of others through.

[massmanute]

A comment about hide glue: It is basically gelatin.

[handirifle]

OK got out today for some more bullet testing. Again I used my ultra scientific testing medium, with one minor change, it rained last night, so the soft dirt was wet .

So what I did was set up 5 rounds loaded with starting charges and working up, at listed 38-55 loads with H4198. Four of the bullets tested were the bizmuth/solder combo's weighing at 225gr. The fifth load was simply the 3/8" copper tubing (one inch long) filled with solder and a starting weight of 216gr. I shaped the nose of this bullet so it would feed. It pretty much had the nose profile of a semi wadcutter pistol bullet, sorry didn't take a pic.

The slower speeds were to test the bullets at distances of 150yds or so, and the range of 1500 to 1700fps was what my ballistics program calculated it to be.

I started with 24gr of H4198, and went up in 1gr increments for the first 4 loads, the 5th, which I will call the tubing bullet, was with only 24gr since it had no base to the copper tubing, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't going to just blow the core out and leave the tubing in my rifling .

Below is a picture of all 5 recovered bullets, starting from the left is the 24gr load then 25, 26, 27, and the tubing bullet.

Velocities recorded were, in the same order, 1366, 1573, 1646, 1740 and 1350 for the tubing bullet.

Retained weight in the same order was, 201.7 gr, 152.7 gr, 144.9 gr, 193.7 gr and 202.3 gr for the tubing bullet.



All but number 2 and 5 separated from the jacket. Number 2 had the core just barely sticking to the jacket on one side. kinda odd I thought. Number 4 was interesting, since the core was pretty much intact. I wonder if it would have kept going through a deer? I think I will submit these to the state for approval, and test on live game, maybe coyote or something, if no opportunities present themselves for that it will be for deer.

The tubing bullet is definitely the cheapest, and I MAY submit one of those also, will see.

[handirifle]

OK with the snag being hit, (The CA F&G didn't accept my bullet with the core melted from the jacket, not t entirely anyway) I went back to the shop, or drawing board as it were. I have been working on some bullet forming dies, as you may know if you've followed this unbelievably long thread, and there is a STEEP learning curve in the machining end of this, especially since I barely know what I am doing in the first place.

Anyway, I had a sizing die in the works, and screwed it up, so a week or so ago, I started working on a nose forming die. Well it is progressing in little strides. Tonight I actually got it to the point where it forms a nose that actually is starting to look somewhat like a bullet. The current shape MAY actually be usable, I will load it up and see, but I have further plans for these. Eventually I want to turn these into my version of a partitioned bullet. I want to do this for several reasons. First, and foremost is because of the consistent jacket separation I got on my test shots, and second for a higher percentage of weight retention, so it would act like a real bullet.

Below is the picture of 4 bullets (duh!). On the left is a Hornady 200gr soft point, next are 2 bullet jackets I formed from 3/8" copper tubing, and on the far right, is a 300gr Barnes TSX for the 45-70 for comparison. I would LOVE to end up with a nose like the 200gr Hornady, so I will keep working on it.



Note on the homemade jackets, there is a slight "shelf" at the bottom of the ogive. I would prefer to get rid of that, but it may also serve as a stop for a 30 cal upside down jacket, that will be used as the partition wall. If I make the bullets in that manner, the front may or may not be left as a hollow point. I will see. I will also make a mental note to see if this shelf affects the feeding of the cartridge into the chamber. If it does at all, it will HAVE to go.

I didn't include a picture of my press punch that is actually what provides the pressure to form the die. I will try to remember that the next time I post pictures.

That's it for now.

Oops, forgot to add, the tip or meplat of the bullet measures .250" so that isn't bad. Could make for a nice "smack" on impact.

[Tycer]

I love this thread!

[handirifle]

OK, had to go back out for something else anyway, so I got the punch and took pics.

First pic is the punch itself and the second is with the formed tubing (jacket?) sitting on it. I think I figured out the shoulder below the ogive. I believe it is from the rest of the tubing "bumping up" when I form the nose. This happens because I when form the nose there isn't anything outside the tubing to contain it. I think when I resize it to .375 the shoulder will go away, I think.

[Tycer]

Cool!