If I Never Wanted One In The First Place, Why Now?

[Bill in Oregon]

The only thing missing on that modded AR is a holder for two cans of Tactical Bacon ...

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/c399/

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Bill in Oregon]

Steve, I'll be happy to help you track down the clown who wore his logging corks and walked all over your floor ...

[COSteve]

Steve, I'll be happy to help you track down the clown who wore his logging corks and walked all over your floor ...

Ha ha, thanks! However, it's a distressed coffee table in the basement by my reloading area that's over 30 years old so actually it's in decent shape for what it is.

[AJMD429]

Is a Garand an EBR?

Mel Tappan ("Survival Guns" author) classified the 'serious' guns like Garands and M1-A's as "Battle Rifles", and the spray-wounders fireable with one hand like the M-16 as "Assault Rifles". I always thought that was a nice way to categorize them.

[7.62 Precision]

We've touched on this before. As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

I can't hunt (big game) with a .223 out here

No need.

[guido4198]

We've touched on this before. As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

YUP.

[jhrosier]

.... As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

I agree and would add the following notes for your consideration.

. Not everyone has the resources to buy an expensive EBR.
. Many folks would have no other use for one, except to fulfill their militia obligations.

An SKS in good condition, with a couple hundred rounds of decent ammo, makes an entirely suitable militia weapon without breaking the bank.

There are literally millions of Chinese SKS "police" guns that were imported before the Clinton ban.
They are well made, inexpensive, and reliable. I see them turn up at the local gun shop for $200 or a bit more on a regular basis. Ammo is widely available for .50 per round or less.

The SKS is small and light enough to be kept handy and easy to field strip for cleaning. I've not shot mine past 200 yards but it seems that it would be adequate to 300. If you remove the folding bayonet, you will save a couple pounds of weight. Do remember to adjust the sights after the bayonet is removed.

The SKS holds 10 rounds of 7.62x39mm ammo in a non-detachable magazine. It can be reloaded very quickly from stripper clips, similar to a Garand.

You could spend more and get less.

Jack

[jeepnik]

We've touched on this before. As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

I can't hunt (big game) with a .223 out here

No need.

My dad had a saying, and he wasn't shy about saying it. Every man should have at least one "good" rifle, and know how to use it. Dad was born in 1919, the son of a WWI vet. Stepson of a career sailor. WWII vet. Growing up during that time, he and his younger brother often supplied meat for the table. While many think his comment was simply martial in context, he would make it clear that every man should be able to feed his family, and protect both his family and nation.

While having a rifle that could use militry issue does make some sense (really if that's your plan, you need two, one in 5.56 the other in 7.62). But to his way of thinking, and history has proven him right, any "good" rifle will suffice as long as you know how to use it. Knowing how isn't just the mechanics of accurate shooting. It's knowing when and what to shoot, and being willing to shoot it at those who would endanger one's family and nation.

His caliber of choice was 30-06. Yes, that was one of the issue rifle cartridges during his period of service, but mostly it was because, at that time, the 3-06 was, may still be, the most popular "big game" (and a darned good anti-personel) cartridge.

Like dad, I own an 06. But, I also own rifles in 5.56 and 7.62. All could be used to feed my family (yea, I know the 5.56 isn't the best for larger critters), but all have certainly proved themselves as martial cartridges.

[olyinaz]

I'm waiting on one in .45-70.

They make 'em! Three choices, .450 Bushmster, .458 SOCOM, and .50 Beowulf. Or you can get an AR-10 in .450 Marlin. Not the same case as a .45-70, but the same result on the receiving end.

Oly

[hfcable]

We've touched on this before. As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

I can't hunt (big game) with a .223 out here

well.....you could get an AR in 7.62 x 39

or .....
you could get the much heavier but still handy AR style 308

i did both

[Sarge]

The current, 3rd-world Model 94. Romanian Statehood Model, LOL.



Oh, almost forgot. Just because I like AK's and I wanted one.

[Blackhawk]

The current, 3rd-world Model 94. Romanian Statehood Model, LOL.



Oh, almost forgot. Just because I like AK's and I wanted one.

What kind of pad is that on your AK?

Got an AR and AK. I honestly don't know that I will be able to get out and get one if it hits the fan. I'm in compound mode for now.

Johnny

[cas]

I'm too old to go about committing combat scenarios and playing shoot 'em up games.

I play shoot 'em up games with a gentleman whom I believed turned 90 this year. He doesn't finish first, but he's almost never last. He no doubt shoots slower than everyone else, but he probably shoots more accurately than most… if not all others in the matches.

His combat was in WW2.

[Grizzly Adams]

I think it's COSteve that has an AR with wood stocks and handguards SWEET!

There's always this solution for those that require the proper finish. I'm thinking it's kind of heavy though. Turnbull AR in 308.

Well, I am not a big black rifle fan, but somehow that just looks......wrong!

[madman4570]

Blaine,

Another cool option in the black gun Dept.(though I really want to check out how they hold up)Daughters boyfriend has one and that one has been extremely good. Are the DPMS guns????? What about a Remington 6.8mm SPC (very light/easily carried/still potent)

Reason I say this is our US Special Forces requested a cartridge spec'd to those specs to find middle ground between the small 5.56 Nato and the much heavier(not only bullet weight wise,but weight of gun wise).7.62 Nato (they came up with the Rem 6.8mmSPC)

Even at 300yds staying roughing within a 8" trajectory curve and still enough for deer/bad guys etc(still over 2000fps and about 1100 ftlbs energy shooting flat. For a little small black plastic popper ------very decent.

Since they can be had(whole gun)for around $800-$900----I would opt for the whole gun.



Ammo is coming down in price and is easy to get.

And did I say------------gun is still light/easily carried!

Course-----------
http://www.dpmsinc.com/308-Classic_ep_100-1.html

http://www.dpmsinc.com/300-AAC-Blackout_ep_155-1.html

[Sarge]

What kind of pad is that on your AK?

Got an AR and AK. I honestly don't know that I will be able to get out and get one if it hits the fan. I'm in compound mode for now.

Johnny

This is the Before pic-



The stock was sanded to 220 and given three coats of Minnwax Sedona Red stain. Once the stain was set, I added four coats the same company’s aerosol Spar Urethane. Pad is by UTG and it adds about an inch, plus much-needed depth to the toe of the stock. These pads slip off just as easily as they slip on, but an application of Outdoor Mounting Tape between the butt plate and pad cured that. You can pick it up by the pad & shake it now, with no fear that the two will separate.

[COSteve]

Deleted

[7.62 Precision]

I can't hunt (big game) with a .223 out here

well.....you could get an AR in 7.62 x 39

or .....
you could get the much heavier but still handy AR style 308

i did both [/quote]

I would tend toward a 6.5 Grendel over a 7.62x39 in an AR. You can build a rifle around a cartridge, or a cartridge for a specific rifle, but sometimes it is a problem to fit an existing cartridge to an existing platform, and the 7.62x39 mated to the AR platform has had issues, with the best result being ARs redesigned to use AK mags. If I wanted to run 7.62x39, I think I would probably stick with something like a vz.58 or something that was designed or redesigned for and proven with the cartridge.

I have a .308-sized AR in .260 Rem, but the balance of the 5.56 ARs is so much better, I would stick with a cartridge that works in the AR-15, like 6.5 Grendel, .50 Beowulf, etc.

Of course, I like the 5.56 and .223, and those calibers are used a lot for hunting up here (know someone who just shot a polar bear with a .223) and with the newer cartridges available, it can be pretty potent for hunting. Too bad you can't use it for hunting down there.

[Mescalero]

7.62 Precision,
Do you have any personal experience with 6.5 Grendal?
I have a Romanion SKS ( milled reciever, threaded barrel ) that I bought for the express purpose of converting to 6.5 Grendal.

[7.62 Precision]

7.62 Precision,
Do you have any personal experience with 6.5 Grendal?
I have a Romanion SKS ( milled reciever, threaded barrel ) that I bought for the express purpose of converting to 6.5 Grendal.

I have some, but mainly in the AR platform. The SKS should be a cool conversion - will the magazine work? I know the magazines in the little CZ Mausers work with the Grendel. SKSs are tough little carbines, and the guys from Tech Sights tell me that some people are getting pretty amazing accuracy out of them. I guess a few guys are using them in some types of competition by buying a pile of them and test firing until they find one with outstanding accuracy, and then selling the rest.

If I were you I would give Marc Krebs a call. He is pretty busy, so you may need to call and ask when to call back. He is building AKs in 6.5 Grendel (and .308) that he is getting sniper-grade accuracy out of. Before I met him and saw for myself, you would have had a hard time convincing me that it was possible to get that kind of accuracy from an AK. He is really sharp - he was a premier 1911 smith back in the day, and many of the features that we expect to see on modern 1911s were his innovations. He redesigned the gas system on the AK to improve accuracy.

http://www.krebscustom.com/index.shtml
847-487-7776

[7.62 Precision]

Mark's 6.5 Grendel AKs are works of art - I would love to post some photos, but I told him I wouldn't - I think he is waiting to have all the legal stuff dealt with on his designs, and the photos I took show one broken down.

[Mescalero]

I agree with you, he let you in on something, you need to honor your part of the deal.
I had a look at what I could see.
I am still going to build my SKS.
I built my 6.5-06, so I figure I can build my 6.5 Grendal.
Also have a 6.5x55.
Get the feeling I like 6.5?

[Sarge]

There are several things the hobbyist gunsmith can do to an entry-level AK to improve accuracy. The triggers used to be awful on most of the but WASR’s now ship with the Tapco G2 trigger. It is infinitely better than any SAR trigger I ever handled. Five times over the RCBS trigger pull gauge revealed an honest four-pound trigger. If you can finesse a trigger, it is two-stage. The first stage takes just over three pounds to 'set' and the final stage is not quite another pound. The final stage could be crisper... I'll look at it after it wears in and see what can be done about that.

You can also straighten out any angular disparity in the front sight base, so the front sight may be centered between its protective wings. The front posts, as delivered, lack parallel sides and the tops of them are often lopsided. This is not conductive to fine shooting. I chuck them it in a drill and worked them down to about 0.055", taking care to get the top flat and stone off any burrs. They get a cold blue baptism before being reinstalled and smoked with a lighter, to kill any glare.

But the biggest single improvement in accuracy comes when you re-crowned the muzzle with a fine silicon ball and finished it off with some 400 grit silicon carbide paper. Most Century AK muzzles look like they were crowned by a drunk chimp with a chainsaw file. I’ve re-crowned several of them and accuracy usually improves 70-100 percent. Re-crowning the muzzle & cleaning up the post made for substantial improvements. The first 5 rounds of Tula FMJ fired over the range bag at an 8” bull, at 196 yards, measured 3 1/4 inches.



Over the next week I refinished the stock. This is the first serious shooting after the stock work and I wanted to confirm that the zero hadn’t moved. I also wanted to see how close Barnaul’s Silver Bear 125 grain soft-point POI was, to the Tula FMJ I’d been shooting. I hunkered down again at 196 yards and did my best to stand the tiny dot of the 8” bull, on the top center edge of the WASR’s front sight. God bless my optometrist. All five shots landed in the black and spanned four inches. If you give me an alibi on the low shot, you have four in three and one half inches. That hole at ten o’clock wandered in the during some 100 yard offhand shooting at a target ‘next door’ and yes, I am too cheap to discard a target over that. If you look close it was marked with a pocket knife before the five shot group was fired.



These rifles really aren’t supposed to shoot this well, particularly with five buck a box steel-cased ammo. No, I can't do this on demand. When I can't do it, I know the rifle is not at fault. But when I can do it, if feels really, really good.

[piller]

I do have an AR 15, and it is so that my son will shoot something in centerfire. He will shoot .22lr, his 20 gauge 870, and the AR, and that is all. My daughter will shoot anything, and does it well. Ask 86er about my daughter shooting that Merkel double rifle he was testing. The .223 is marginal for many animals, but I have seen a hog taken by CRS' son with one. I didn't witness the shot, but I saw the hog. Accuracy with a good 60 grain bullet does work well, and CRS' son is very accurate with his AR. I am not fond of AR type rifles, but the same as with many tools, they have their uses.

[7.62 Precision]

Most Century AK muzzles look like they were crowned by a drunk chimp with a chainsaw file.

They look that good? I was thinking a mentally challenged gorilla with a three-pound sledge and a cold chisel.

A better rear sight can help a lot, too, or a reflex sight. Any improvement over factory AK sights can make a big difference for practical accuracy.

[7.62 Precision]

I agree with you, he let you in on something, you need to honor your part of the deal.
I had a look at what I could see.
I am still going to build my SKS.
I built my 6.5-06, so I figure I can build my 6.5 Grendal.
Also have a 6.5x55.
Get the feeling I like 6.5?

I'm with you on the 6.5s - I have been around the 6.5x55 since I was a kid. Just built a .260 Rem AR, and what a shooter with the Black Hills Match 139 gr. Lapua Scenar! I think 6.5 Grendel is the most practical all-around cartridge currently available for the AR platform, and I am dying to chamber one of these in 6.5 Grendel:

I think it would be the ultimate little hunting rifle for kids and just great for something that is easy to keep with you wherever you are.

Be sure to post photos of your SKS build. In fact, if you are interested, I would be happy for you to post an article about the build on my website.

[stew71]

We've touched on this before. As always my response is that every non-felon, adult, citizen should own one. It is the current "militia" weapon.

Or two...or three....

[AJMD429]

I think 6.5 Grendel is the most practical all-around cartridge currently available for the AR platform, and I am dying to chamber one of these in 6.5 Grendel. I think it would be the ultimate little hunting rifle for kids and just great for something that is easy to keep with you wherever you are.

I've just built a .300 Blackout for the same reason, and the AR platform plus an Encore barrel should make it a flexible round for most anything. Not quite the punch long-range as a Grendel, but great for suppressed shooting and normal AR bolt-face and all. If I need to shoot a long ways I can always put the .280 Rem barrel on the Encore.

[Mescalero]

7.62 Precision,
I would be happy to!
One of the things I promised myself ( with the gold mining operation going commercial )
is that I would teach myself to post pictures on the forum!
C.Cash, awp101, you listening, ( I need help! )
This is too cool of an opportunity to not share with EVERYONE!

[awp101]

I hadn't planned on jumping into this but why not?

There's been some good suggestions here. My personal rankings are FAL, AK then AR. A couple of things to consider: if we have to take on our own, .223 and .308 will be easier to scrounge when needed. If we're taking on someone else, 7.62x39 can be added to the list. I love my 5.45 SAR2 but I have no illusions of being able to find any ammo once the stocks in the surplus stores dry up (for any reason).

The FAL makes an excellent battle rifle* IMO but it'll be heavy to lug around if you're on the move. Nothing generations of troops haven't already dealt with but just something to keep in mind.

I have no problems with the AR but my feelings run along the lines of the CSM in We Were Soldiers: If I need one, there'll be plenty laying on the ground. I'm not counting on that but I have a couple of the others mentioned so one could probably be bartered for an AR if one became absolutely necessary.

*
OK, I know the term assault rifle and EBR get thrown around a lot, mostly as a joke BUT the true definition of an assault weapon indicates a select fire capability. What most of us own would be considered a main battle rifle. A semi-auto rifle in a military caliber, just like the Garand was.

EBR. Last time I checked, none of my rifles had done anything evil and only one of them is black and it's not even totally black. More of a gray parkerizing with black furniture.

OK, my OCD is feeling better now...

Most Century AK muzzles look like they were crowned by a drunk chimp with a chainsaw file.

They look that good? I was thinking a mentally challenged gorilla with a three-pound sledge and a cold chisel.

[awp101]

7.62 Precision,
I would be happy to!
One of the things I promised myself ( with the gold mining operation going commercial )
is that I would teach myself to post pictures on the forum!
C.Cash, awp101, you listening, ( I need help! )
This is too cool of an opportunity to not share with EVERYONE!

OK, here's the easy-peasy way to do it. Open a free account at http://www.photobucket.com.

Either do your photo editing before uploading pics to your album(s) or use their software.

Once the pic(s) are uploaded there will be a 4-5 choices of how to share the image. Via email, direct link, etc. Copy the one that says "IMG code" and past it into your post. It will automatically resize to the forum default size and you will have posted your picture.

The IMG code will look like this: [ IMG ]http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... 72c1f4.jpg[ /IMG ]

I put a space inbetween the brackets and the IMG so you can see what the code looks like. If I take the spaces out (to get the correct

Clear as mud?

[Mescalero]

Thanks,
that makes more sense than anything else I have ever seen.

[Mescalero]

awp101,
surprised you are not on the 6.5 bandwagon here.

[awp101]

I am, up to a point. Once the run starts on the sporting goods and toy stores, anything that's not a "common" caliber would probably be harder to come across and would probably have to be bartered for later on down the road. Having excess "common" ammo (but can you ever really have too much? ) would be the currency of choice.

I love my 6.5s and 7x57s but for serious social work of a medium to high volume intensity, being able to use "enemy" ammo is a plus in my book.

Now I may end up being totally wrong. I've never been on a two way range or in a serious social breakdown issue (although our shop can get pretty crazy at times ) so I'm taking what I've picked up reading about various self defense groups throughout history including the Balkans of the 1990s, Chechnya, etc and applying what I hope is some logic and common sense. I'm in an urban area with no place to bug out. My mindset isn't to hit the road, it's to get back home and handle what comes our way.

And BTW, the SKS is another excellent choice. That 6.5 idea is really neat!

[Mescalero]

Thanks, bro!