.38 WCF questions

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:34 am

Hey John I was hoping you'd jump in with your expertise

I did some playing around with stuffing 3f Goex in a primed Starline 38-40 brass.

First picture: what I used.

Second picture: a finger tapped down 40 grains doesn't all fit in this case.
What didn't fit is laying on top of the Goex can.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:43 am

This picture is 34 grains in the case finger tap settled.

This picture is the 34 grains compressed with my makeshift press.
I could easily seat the 180 grain winchester bullet against this charge.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:52 am

This picture is the case now loaded with 38 grains of powder.
I step pressed it.
Filled the case half full, pressed it then dumped the rest of the 38 grains
in and pressed it again. I'm sure at this point I could properly seat The bullet in the hand loader.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:33 am

casastahle,
Looks like you are doing fine.

If you pour the charge slowly through a powder funnel (about 4 to 5 seconds holding the measure about 4-5 inches above it) you will find that it will settle about .10" or thereabouts.

Here's a pic showing the difference between dropped and settled also the density difference between these two powders. Goex has a similar density to Kik.

.

You could place a dowel or smaller bullet down on the powder and place a mark on it at the case mouth. Compare that measurement to the bullet and adjust the compression so that the mark is about 1/32 of an inch or so above the 1st driving band.

Another way would be to take a fired case so that the bullet will be a slip fit. Compress the charge until the bullet will sit at the proper seating depth.

NOTE: If the bullets are soft lead, they will be distorted if compressed so it is best that they just sit down on the compressed charge. If the bullets are at least 10 bhn, they can be used to compress the charge an additional 1/8" or so with no distortion. If 14bhn+ they can be used to compress up to 1/4" with no distortion.

Have fun!
w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:43 am

Now that I think of it, your Winchester tool, if it's like mine, does not size the case and the bullets are a slip fit in fired cases with the crimp holding them in place.

w30wcf

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:57 am

My plan is to start my casting with soft lead like the original
factory Winchester BP loads.
My goal is to replicate a load as close as possible to the original.
I realize cases are of slightly different thickness.
As well as today's primers are much better.
Having fun in PA.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:15 am

I rummaged through my stuff and found a fired 38-40 case. I dumped 38 grs. by weight of Goex FFG slowly into the case per the above method and the powder came up to about .10" below the case mouth. The bullet seating depth will need to be around .35"
which will require .25" of powder compression on he settled charge which is fine if that fired case were to be used.

With your unfired cases, a bit more compression would be needed so perhaps maybe you should start with a couple of grains less so that the maximum compression does not exceed .25 (1/4")or so. After firing, your cases will likely hold 1 to 2 grs. more powder.

Original SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket) type cases have an extra 2 -3 grs. more capacity than modern brass.

w30wcf

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:44 pm

Thanks, good info. John.
I actually will be loading once fired cases.
The one in the above pictures I was playing around with is
indeed an unfired case I pulled the hardcast bullet from.
I will give your idea a try myself with a once fired case.
I really would like to get the full 38 grains in these rounds.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:39 pm

During those rare energetic times when I feel the need to load BP in the 38 WCF, I use a 30" brass drop tube, an original Ideal bullet mould, and old original balloon head cases. I keep several hundred around just for those nostalgic moments.

I sectioned a couple of cases to show the difference and how the balloon cases will hold a few more grains of powder.------6

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:35 pm

This is a great thread, with some really interesting information.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:50 pm

Thanks 6,
Yes those pictures explain it all as plain as day.
Are you able to get 40 grains or 38 grains using your drop tube setup
into those vintage balloon cases?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:24 am

Can't remember offhand and I don't keep notes for that but IIRC, I could not get the whole amount in there. It was not an important reloading adventure as after a few shooting sessions, the mess was not worth the added time when 9 grains of Herco made for a hassle free day of shooting.-------6

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:01 am

6 if you ever decide you want to sell some of those old balloon cases,
I know a guy a little west of the Susquehanna river that would be very
interested.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:34 am

OK, Your in luck as I just happen to have a sale this week on balloon cases. They will be $12 for each case and a minimum of 200 cases per order.

I'm at work right now and I'll check out my inventory tonight and get back to you.------6

Is the York show anytime soon? They usually have lots of good stuff like that.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:42 am

Thanks 6...

I'm not sure when the next show in town is.
I've been behaving myself and avoiding the shows.
They have a tendency to get expensive for some reason

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:34 am

Black Powder Bullet Lube.
One pound of pure beeswax.
One pound of pure Buffalo tallow.
Two table spoons of extra virgin olive oil.
Melted & mixed in a double boiler.
Results:

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:44 pm

Man! That stuff looks good enough to spread on bread.---------6

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:01 pm

Gawd!!!! I agree with sixgun, that could go on my toast in the morning.That should hold you the rest of the Summer ,if you dont shoot to much!,,,,,DT

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:17 am

Hmmm, wonder why mine's not quite that yellow?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:44 pm

Griff wrote:Hmmm, wonder why mine's not quite that yellow?

It was still very warm and just starting to setup when I took that picture Griff.
This morning I looked at it and it's much darker today.
It also shrunk up and the block drops right out of the container.
Sure does smell good, I for one love the smell of beeswax

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:31 pm

Mine's much lighter in color. Must be the tallow... I used beef, IIRC. Mine looks almost like SPG, slightly yellower, tho'.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:47 pm

Griff wrote:Mine's much lighter in color. Must be the tallow... I used beef, IIRC. Mine looks almost like SPG, slightly yellower, tho'.

"Must be the tallow"
Yes Griff I agree.
Buffalo tallow is very yellow.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:53 am

I was going to purchase a drop tube.
After scrounging around the junk in the garage/shop.
I knocked this 26" drop tube together.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:09 pm

Cas,
If you really want to get fancy, go down to the store where they sell farmer's supplies and get these little rubber o rings that farmers use to castrate baby bulls.

Slip one of these babies on the end of the drop tube to limit how much the tube goes in the case. I guess the same thing can be done with some electrical tape but we happened to have some laying around when my wife decided to castrate me as I got kids in most every state. Don't pay no support either. Every night I get me's a bottle of Mad Dog 20-20 and hunt dow da hoes.

----6

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:25 pm

6
Look closer at my picture.
Took care of that issue with that locking slip ring collar.
The allen wrench to adjust it is laying there as well.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Ok, I use an I pad and I needed to enlarge the pic.-----6 (and Italian)

wm · Post by wm » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:11 pm

I have a buddy who has (or had.....he turns over firearms like I change socks) a Colt Official Police that started life as a 41 Long Colt that he converted to 38-40 as part of restoration of a junker pawn shop find. It was round butted, 3" barrel, and he found a gunsmith who milled just enough metal off the top to mount a set of adjustable sights (S&W J fame I think but don't hold me to that). He had a guy polish & reblue it who did work for USFA. It looked nice but not great.....there was just too much mileage on it to make it look great again.

He carried it as a CCW for a short while and then moved on to a L frame S&W in 44 spl. He might still have it or he might have traded it off.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:04 pm

Hey casastahle,that drop-tube came out nice. Made mine out of copper tube and aluminum funnel. Helps get another gr. or two in the case .Loaded some 38wcf today ,making ready for a trip to the range this wk. Did you get any bullets cast?,,,,,,DT.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:11 pm

Dusty Texian wrote:Hey casastahle,that drop-tube came out nice. Made mine out of copper tube and aluminum funnel. Helps get another gr. or two in the case .Loaded some 38wcf today ,making ready for a trip to the range this wk. Did you get any bullets cast?,,,,,,DT.

O yea, I sure did Dusty

I'll be posting pictures in a few minutes.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:38 pm

This is my first time ever casting bullets.
My only experience like this was as a small boy watching my Grandfather cast round balls.

Picture 1: Pot and mold warming up, thinking I have everything I need and ready to roll.

Picture 2 & 3: After about an hour of total failure and absolute frustration with trying to get that
bottom pouring figured out I gave up. I then switched over to ladle pouring. It all came together with
great results and much enjoyment. I decided to just do a run of 50 good ones for this first time.
I also found that water dropping was the way to go.
With the soft lead I'm using dropping them hot on that soft towel made distortions in the side
of the bullet that hit on the drop.

Picture 4:
All 50 ready for pan lubing tomorrow.

Picture 5:
Had to check the fit in an empty deprimed case. Perfect

Picture 6:
Close up of one of the cast bullets.

Picture 7:
Old Winchester mold all cleaned up and ready for next time.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:49 pm

Great pictures! and if that is your first time to cast bullets ,you could have fooled me. Should be some (fine) shooting period bp. ammo you are building.,,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:02 pm

Thanks Dusty.
I'm mostly thanking the 'Big Guy' upstairs for protecting me from myself and not burning myself

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:48 pm

casastahle wrote:Thanks Dusty.
I'm mostly thanking the 'Big Guy' upstairs for protecting me from myself and not burning myself

Thats for sure! I use the water-cooling when pouring those long, 550 gr. .45 cal. bullets ,keeps the nose from drooping. I hang a towel to seperate, the water and lead pot.Be carefull with the water-cooling . One drop of water in the lead mix =explosive!,,,DT

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:11 pm

Good looking bullets. And don't be discouraged by that bottom pour. There's a fine line between enough ventilation and too much! I've had days where I thought conditions were just right... but that little discharge bit can cool faster'n a... well... actually faster'n that!

I drop into an old cardboard powder can... and never have deformed bullets... I always watch to make sure the sprue is cooled before I cut it, and then slowly open the mold... never let 'em drop more'n 3-4 inches...

Part of running at the correct pace is running two molds... pour into one, set it aside, then after dumping the boolits from mold #2, refilling it, pick up that #1 mold and cut the sprue, dump and refill, set it aside and repeat with mold #2. To me, runnin' any faster than that is asking for trouble. Either you'll be cutting the sprue before it get set up and you'll be getting a smear on the underside of the sprue plate, and your bullets will be dropping before they're fully set up, and easily deformed. My bottom pour needs to be fed at a fairly regular pace... too fast and it seems to drip, and yet, if I pause in casting... sometimes those drips will build up and provide way too much cooling to the spout... Then I have to wait until it can get heated up again.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:27 pm

Thanks, and good pointers Griff.

I'm very open to suggestions and corrections

Question for you guys that cast & load BP cartridges.
Do you weigh your cast bullets and powder?
If so, what is a good simple small electronic scale you would recommend?

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:22 pm

I never weigh black except for notes. Load it by volume anyway.
I really like the looks of that bullet lube. Will have to try it. There are several ranches around here that raise buffs and even a retail outlet for meat and such on the highway south of here. Maybe they'll have tallow too or sell me some suet.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:37 am

My first time pan lubing went well.
I went a little high on my lube pour.
I'll get that dialed in a little better next time.
The lube foreskins will get cleaned off after I insert the bullets into
the cases and sitting on top of the powder charge.
My homemade brass bullet freeing cutter worked great.

Picture 1: Melted lube starting to setup.

Picture 2: Starting to cut the bullets free from the lube & pan.

Picture 3: First bullet free from the cutter.

Picture 4, 5, 6: cutting away.

Picture 7: All done & cleaned up.

Picture 8: Lubed bullet close up. Groves filled perfect.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:05 am

Hey casastahle,your lube cutter and bullets came out looking perfect! The bullet and lube combo should make for some fine tailor made cartridges for the old 38wcf.Thanks for the pics.,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:33 am

Thanks Dusty.
I'm really having a great time with this project.

I know it's probably small potatoes for most of the guys in the forum.
I'm hoping I'm not driving anyone nuts with all the pictures and daily
update posts regarding this little casting & reloading project.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:34 am

I would bet most enjoy seeing fresh cast bullets and hearing about a loading project. I know I do. Funny how things go,my 38wcf rifles and loading junk has been on the front of the reloading bench for the last wk. or two. Thanks for sparking my 38wcf interest back up. Been eyeballing the 45-75 wcf last few days ,about time to get that old Thunder -Clapper back out.,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:03 pm

Bullet weight curiosity got the best of me.
I just have to know if this old mold is throwing consistent 180's.
I should have this neat little scale in the mail in a day or so.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:12 pm

Consistent 185.1to 185.3 grains.
Very very pleased with these results.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:28 pm

Load them shells

38 grains down the tube.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:57 am

I fully expect to see a range report tomorrow evening when I check in!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:51 am

Not quite yet for that range report Griff.
I'm still dealing with a technical difficulty.
During this reloading process, I came to realization only about calf of
my fire formed brass would rechamber in the bore.
The brass would go in about 3/4 of the way and lock up tight.
I went as far as cutting the neck end of a shell off to determine what end of the shell was hanging up.
It's definitely the base end that's slightly oversized.
unfortunately the old antique Winchester loading tool does no resizing at all.
So I decided if I'm going to use fire formed brass, I'm going to have to full length resize.
Yesterday I ordered a Lee hand press and a full length resizing die for 38-40.
This should take care of those problem brass.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the question as to why half the shells drop
right into the chamber and the other half hang up about 3/4 of the way in the chamber.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:12 am

The difference between an unfired Star Line brass (left)
Fire formed from my model 73 (right)

The sacrificed shell to determine if it was the neck or base that's hanging up.

That's as far in the chamber as that base half would go.

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:43 am

What brand of brass? I know Starline is pretty heavy compared to Win or Rem brass. I wondered if old balloon heads would expand to the resizing die when the powder is compressed? You will get it sorted out I'm sure, I really am looking forward to a range report.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:08 am

EdinCT wrote:What brand of brass? I know Starline is pretty heavy compared to Win or Rem brass. I wondered if old balloon heads would expand to the resizing die when the powder is compressed? You will get it sorted out I'm sure, I really am looking forward to a range report.

Ed,
Star Line brass is all I've used or have to date.
This once fired brass issue is before I do anything with them other
than deprime, wash & dry them.
As tight as they are I don't understand how they even ejected from
the rifle the first time they were fired new.

I have 6 boxes of these. They are what I'm reloading.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/38_WCF_Black ... x?CAT=4442

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:15 am

Have you tried rotating the brass in the chamber to see if there is one clocking that will allow them to drop in? The brass not expanding symetrically could explain your problem. Single shot enthusiasts some times notch the rim of their brass to be sure it goes back in the chamber in the same position every time.
I really like using a drop tube and have for many years used one made from an old arrow shaft. Works great! I have one of the nice brass ones now but don't remember using it yet.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:30 am

M. M. Wright wrote:Have you tried rotating the brass in the chamber to see if there is one clocking that will allow them to drop in? The brass not expanding symetrically could explain your problem. Single shot enthusiasts some times notch the rim of their brass to be sure it goes back in the chamber in the same position every time.
I really like using a drop tube and have for many years used one made from an old arrow shaft. Works great! I have one of the nice brass ones now but don't remember using it yet.

Yes I did try rotating them with no luck.