Chaparral 76 range report and new outfit

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:14 pm

Pitchy wrote:Guess i`ve been banned so won`t be any updates

??????

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Wed May 02, 2012 4:17 pm

Pitchy, if 'yer gonna use 3031 I would up the load to at least 40 grains in the .45-60. That's what I used in my 1884 original and it was fine. That little gun had the round barrel cut to 22" for some reason, but the bore was beautiful. I only gave 800 bucks for it and later traded it for an '86.

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Wed May 02, 2012 5:10 pm

Banned, say's who ? I was wondering if different brass might help tighten groups a little.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 07, 2012 12:46 pm

Update,
New buckhorn sight came today, stamped out piece of junk, elevator was just about as thick as tin and the sight bent when lifting it up to put the elevator on.
The 60.00 buck piece of junk went back for a refund.

I did get the hammer spring and lever safety spring lightened up so it shot easier.
Had to order a can of 4198 powder so can`t try that yet.
Here`s the results at 50 yards with 37 grains of 3031 and 300 grain bullet, a little better but still not great.
I ordered another semi buckhorn sight on ebay that has the adjustable blade with the white diamond in it and double sided elevator.
Will report back when i get new powder and sight.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:21 pm

Pitchy wrote:Update,
New buckhorn sight came today, stamped out piece of junk, elevator was just about as thick as tin and the sight bent when lifting it up to put the elevator on.
The 60.00 buck piece of junk went back for a refund.

I did get the hammer spring and lever safety spring lightened up so it shot easier.
Had to order a can of 4198 powder so can`t try that yet.
Here`s the results at 50 yards with 37 grains of 3031 and 300 grain bullet, a little better but still not great.
I ordered another semi buckhorn sight on ebay that has the adjustable blade with the white diamond in it and double sided elevator.
Will report back when i get new powder and sight.

Thats looking good, good rabbit rifle in the making, come and shoot me some, heads only mind

Nath.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 07, 2012 9:34 pm

Thanks Nath, i`ll get it a little better then this case is closed.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:12 am

If I'm guestimating rightly, five of those shots went into about 1 & 3/4" at 50 yards. That is not bad at all. In fact, I'd say it is encouraging. A better sight combination coupled with a faster powder like IMR 4198 might tighten that up enough to give your sub-3" groups at 100 yards. You might have mentioned this already, but have you considered a tang sight? All in all, that ain't bad.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:34 am

Thanks Kirk, yea i`m lookin forward to try the 4198 powder and sight.
The only rifle i have a tang sight on is my Sharps, i can`t seem to get used to them when carrying the rifle .
I think a normal notch in a buckhorn type sight will help alot, the wide V in this ladder sight leaves to much room to move around.
Not to knock a original ladder sight as i believe they have a better notch in them.
It will be at least the weekend before everything gets here.
The safety lever spring was so stiff that it actualy put a weird twist on your hand squeezing it and trying to hold steady.
Here`s good info on the 76.
http://marauder.homestead.com/Rifles.html

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:37 am

Looks great and thanks for sharing Pitchy!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 08, 2012 9:19 am

Pitchy, I hear you on those wide v notches on the ladder sights. I have a problem with those as well. The notch is so wide, it is hard to tell when the dadgummed front sight tip is centered in that wide valley. A buckhorn sight will certainly help, at least in my opinion. (that link to the '76 articles is a good one. I didn't now about that one.)

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 11, 2012 11:21 am

Ok, new sight on and still all over the place with 3031.
So it`s either the powder or my eyes and bad shooting but the shots felt pretty darn good.
I set the sight so it shot high at 50 yards but what surprized me there wasn`t much drop at 100.
As soon as i get the 4198 powder i`ll try that and update.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 11, 2012 12:04 pm

Well boys i had 11 cartriges left with the 3031 load so set up a target at 30 yards at my garage range.
Sand bag rest and look what happened, not bad, one flyer so i`m thinking the problem is my poor eyesight.
Will still reload some with the 4198 when i get it and shoot another group at 50 yards.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 11, 2012 1:07 pm

You have a lot of rounds clustering pretty tight there. That is looking promising. I'd say it is probably your eyes that are the challenge, and trying to get that front bead level with the top of your rear sight when it is fuzzy. I have the same problem. One way to cheat is to take a little sticker, punch a tiny hole in the middle of it, then stick it to your glasses or sunglasses so that it acts as a peep sight. That should sharpen up that rear sight. I do it on a regular basis and it works well.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Thanks for your replies bro, i`ll try the 4198 and see if there`s a change.
Guess the moral of this story is them hostiles better not get to close.

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Fri May 11, 2012 1:49 pm

Tell you what Pitchy, I'll do you a favor. Since I have much younger eyes, send that 76 and a few thousand rounds down here and I'll shoot it for a couple years and see what I can get for groups. Anything for a brother.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 11, 2012 1:55 pm

walks with gun wrote:Tell you what Pitchy, I'll do you a favor. Since I have much younger eyes, send that 76 and a few thousand rounds down here and I'll shoot it for a couple years and see what I can get for groups. Anything for a brother.

Younger eyes, i only have ten years on ya

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:39 pm

Pitchy, I reason if you pointed that thing at something that God intented it too, it and you would get the job done!

Nath.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 11, 2012 4:32 pm

Thanks Nath, yep in this brush country it will do just the way it is for white tail at 50-75 yards.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 1:47 pm

Ok Mike i tried some loads with 4198 starting at 36 gr. then 38 then 35 and they went all over the target. Kicked like a mule also so to heavy for my blood.
Tried 29 and 30 grains, 29 being what the lyman manual calls for and ended up with 30 gr.
Nice mild load that`s pleasant to shoot and should be running about 1400 fps.
Shot 31 loads all together with no failures to fire.

Some of the holes from the heavy loads were more than a foot apart and had to set the sight up two notches.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu May 17, 2012 1:57 pm

30gr looks great

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 pm

Thanks Pete, the groups all shot to the right, i flipped the target over in the middle of the shoot.
I bumped the front sight to the left a hair so should be close now.
I`d think that load should be plenty for deer don`t ya think.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:25 pm

Whoops, all shooting was at 50 yards off a sand bag.
I like the powder it burns real clean with no unburned powder anywhere.
A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:55 pm

30 gr. goes with the 40% rule. I still use CCI250s with mine, just simplifies things as I experiment. I had to raise my front sight by way of modifications (which I suppose I should publish) to get my SRC to shoot to the sights.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Pitchy wrote:A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.

That would be because it was a mild load and the pressure was not quite high enough to seal the case mouth against the chamber walls.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 8:46 pm

KirkD wrote:
Pitchy wrote:A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.
That would be because it was a mild load and the pressure was not quite high enough to seal the case mouth against the chamber walls.

Kinda what i figured, no harm no foul.
Thanks buddy.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 pm

IMO the reason the hot loads didn`t group is that the bullets i`m using are 457 and the bore is just the same size.
I think the lead bullets were skidding down the bore, it did show some signs of leading.
It is a mute problem because the lighter load works fine.
Thoughts?

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:03 pm

The lighter loads are more in line with the cartridge and gun as designed.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

Hobie wrote:The lighter loads are more in line with the cartridge and gun as designed.

Oh i agree, i have a 86, Sharps , Marlin Cowboy and a guide gun in 45-70 for heavy loads.
I was just experimenting along with Mike , i see he was using a jacked bullet which would make a difference also.
I`m happy with the 30 grain load and it will kill a deer next season.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:04 am

Lenn, those higher end loads where way too much for a soft cast plain base bullet, evidenced by shots going all over the place. Your bore would be well-leaded by the time you stepped down to the milder loads. Did you clean the lead out of the bore before stepping down to 30 grains? I would think it will need a severe cleaning. Use turpentine and extra fine steel wool.

Maybe you did get all the lead out before trying those milder loads but, even then, I think 1,400 fps and 30 grains is still too much. The original velocity for the '76 45-60 was 1,300 fps. That is what I use and I get sub 2" groups (five shot) at 100 yards, albeit with a gas check. It might be worth making sure that bore is scrubbed clean with extra fine steel wool, and then load up five rounds with 27 grains of IMR 4198. See what happens.

I don't see a problem with .457 bullets if they are soft cast. I have used .427 bullets all the time in my 45-60 and 45-70's and get very good accuracy with soft cast bullets.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:29 am

Yep i cleaned the bore before the 30 grain load, last group i shot.
My bullets are cast from wheel weights so may be a little hard also.
The Lyman 49th issue shows a load of 29 grains at 3100 fps, i tried that but got a better group at 30 grains.
I`m done messing with it now and am happy with the load it will be plenty good for deer here.
Thanks for everyones help.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 18, 2012 2:28 pm

That 30 grain load does seem to be a good one. I'm betting that with practice, it will tighten up even more once you get used to those new sights. You have a '76 made from modern steels, so it should be able to handle 1,400 fps without a problem. Mine is original, so I stay down around 1,300 fps.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 24, 2012 3:20 pm

Mike D. wrote:Pitchy, I tried 3031 in my Chaparall 45-75 carbine and did not like the results. 45 grains under a 300 grain Laser Cast LFN gave only 1366 FPS with absolutely abysmal results. The cases were badly sooted and the bullets were all over the place. Next I went with IMR 4198. MUCH better. 40 grains, same bullet, gave 1773 FPS average and was VERY accurate. Clean cases and very easy ejection. I'm gonna do the same load only with 250 Barnes TSX. That ought'ta make a A No 1 pig banger.

So there are no errors Mike is talking about a 45-75 not a 45-60 as he states here.
Do not try those loads in a 45-60.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat May 26, 2012 9:23 am

Here`s a load i just tried out using a 405 grain FN bullet over 26 grains of 4198.
Mild shooting and fills the case right up too the bullet, if a good set of eyes would of shot that would of been a tight group.
As i have this mold i may stick with it, should be a dandy deer load.

This was at 50 yards, should be right close at 100.
Copy any loads in this thread at your own risk.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:30 pm

In my own case, vertical spread like that is due to a blurry top of the rear sight, making it difficult to see exactly where to put the top of my front sight. If that is the case, you have yourself a super accurate load. Did you shoot that on a cloudy day or in bright sunlight? I find I shoot much more accurately in bright sunlight due to my pupil stopping way down to a pinhole, which sharpens everything up real nice.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun May 27, 2012 10:00 pm

It seems to me that the repro sights are much less sharp than the originals and this affects how well I can use the sights. It does look like a good load!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 6:33 am

It was sunny but i was in kind of a hurry to test fire the load , that and the fuzzy sight picture.
I made up another 50 cases yesterday so i`m going to load up some at that load and see how they fly.
Will update tomorrow.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:34 am

Pitchy wrote:It was sunny but i was in kind of a hurry to test fire the load , that and the fuzzy sight picture.
I made up another 50 cases yesterday so i`m going to load up some at that load and see how they fly.
Will update tomorrow.

Looking forward to the update

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Got out to shoot today, good as these eyes are going to shoot.
2 1/2 in at 50 yards, good enough for deer.

26 grains of 4198 -405 grain bullet

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 1:34 pm

Dropped the charge to 25 grains, bingo, and a little more mild shooting.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 2:09 pm

Side note, i neck sized thos last cases with a Lyman 310 tool and chamber fired them. When i reloaded them with the 45-70 dies the scraped bad on the lower part of the case.
Soooooo i recon i`ll have to buy some 45-60 dies or full length resize with the 45-70 dies.
Correct?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:00 pm

Pitchy, that 25 grain load is the cat's meow. I'm betting that if the blurry sights could be factored out, you would get 2" groups at 100 yards, maybe even better. I'd say you have your load!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks Kirk, yep i`m pretty happy with that.
I have 50 loaded with 300 grainers and 50 with the 405`s, ready and steady.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:14 am

Pitchy wrote:Side note, i neck sized thos last cases with a Lyman 310 tool and chamber fired them. When i reloaded them with the 45-70 dies the scraped bad on the lower part of the case.
Soooooo i recon i`ll have to buy some 45-60 dies or full length resize with the 45-70 dies.
Correct?

Anyone have some ideas about this, do the 45-60 dies size the case more bottle neck than the 45-70 dies?
Does it hurt anything to resize with the 45-70 dies and have the case expand to the 45-60 specs then resize back to 45-70 specs.
If it doesn`t matter i`ll full length size them using the 45-70 dies and save some money.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:35 am

I`ll take a stab at this myself, i put the calipers to a fired 45-70 case and a fired 45-60 case and they came out the same. So it`s apparent that the 45-70 dies will work just fine if i full length size them.
That should of been a simple question for those in the know here

Post by **Hobie** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:11 am

Let's see Pitchy, you allowed 21 minutes for a response...

cd4570government.jpg

That's for the .45-70 but I can't find a dimensional drawing for the .45-60. However, if you're already loading using the .45-70 dies I guess you'll do just fine.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:24 am

Let's see Pitchy, you allowed 21 minutes for a response...

Actually i asked earlier, see in my quote.
It really isn`t a matter of the time, but why some of those that know this stuff don`t reply.
I shouldn`t of said anything but i get the feeling it`s because of the OT thing, that some don`t reply to some people because they post OT stuff.
Prob just my imagination.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:30 am

Pitchy, I have not used 45-70 dies for sizing 45-60 brass, so I have no experience there to share, but I wondered if the bottom end of the die is larger than the top end and if the 45-60 does not go in as far as the 45-70 it might not get sized enough. I don't know. Maybe it goes in far enough to grip the bullet.

One thing I do know is that before I got 45-60 dies from Lyman, I didn't do any case sizing at all. I just inserted the bullet and then crimped it in. The bullets would be awful loose before crimping, but if I just squeezed a bit on the neck to make it very slightly oval, it held the bullet good enough until I got it crimped in.

Larryo-1 · Post by **Larryo-1** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:50 am

For what it is worth---A relative of mine has an original 45-60 Model 76 and did not have any dies for it. I had an old set of Herters 45-70 dies that I put in the lathe and turned down the length of the dies till they made his 45-60 cases out of 45-70 cases. They work just fine and he has not lost a single case since then. End of story.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:58 am

Thanks, yep ya gotta take a little off the bottom of the crimp seat 45-70 die in order to get it to crimp the 45-60.
What i`m getting at is the isse about neck sizing only, i thought there was a problem with the size of the 45-60 case after it had been fired going into the seating 45-70 die. But the 45-70 case if only neck sized would rub at the bottom too so it`s a mute issue.
I`ll prob. just stick with the 45-70 dies and full length size the cases.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:15 am

Can't answer your most recent question but am enjoying reading your and other experiances

Keep up the good work bro

Nath.