Loose Dogs

[Malamute]

"...I don't think a 100 lbs Pitbull is a good match for a 700 plus lbs steer..."


That is your opinion, and shows a basic lack of understanding on how dogs can hurt livestock or wildlife. There have been numerous comments in this thread regarding livestock hurt by dogs. Just chasing them can run them through a fence and seriously hurt them, as well as hamstringing them, or tearing their flanks and effectively gutting them. Yes, a 100 lb dog can kill a 700 lb steer.

In the area I live, has a number of ranches, and traditional minded folks. In most regards, most of us think thats a good thing, until this topic comes up. That said, most folks that I know of have been quite tolerant, more so than is called for, regarding dogs running loose and harrassing stock and wildlife, killing chickens, acting aggressively towards people in their own (the peoples) yards, etc. Interesting that you mention pet pit bulls, that is the primary trouble making dog in this area at this point (with a couple of accomplices off and on), and there are about a half dozen people that now understand the level of problem this dog has become, and are ready to deal with it the next time it comes around. The owner has been talked to more than once, to no avail. Everyone said they "didn't want to shoot someones dog", but none of them knew it had been causing trouble for others to the degree that it has. Most have said the next time they see the dog it will be a problem for the dog, and the deer, antelope and livestock harrasing and chicken killing will end. I see nothing unfair about that, rather a great degree of tolerance when it wasn't legally required, and was presented to the owner as an opportunity to deal with it before it continued or escalated.

I believe one reason that livestock may seem to hold a higher level of importance in the west has nothing to do with the overall numbers of cattle raised, thats not the point, the point is the importance of the livestock to the people that live here. Someones yearly profit could be wiped out in a bad incident, as has happened with sheep in a couple places, and very valuable breeding stock can be lost (killed). Just as horse stealing had a terminal effect on those caught. It was the importance of a horse in the west, not the monetary value of it, or the number of horses the west produced that mattered. A man set afoot in the old days could be as good as dead for a number of reasons. A rancher that lost scarce and valuable stock could be ruined. Most of the west is very dry country, it takes a vast amount of area to produce livestock, and the amount of trouble and toil it takes to make that happen is taken seriously. Dogs can also be dangerous to people when they decide to become aggressive. I don't particulalry like being barked and growled at in my own yard by a strange dog that doesnt seem to want to leave, and/or wants to fight my dogs.

[76/444]

tn gun runner,
With all due respect I've read your posts on this thread and I cannot see your logic. Your statements appear to be, well, inflammatory at best.
Poisoning cattle.
Implied threat because you're armed.
Running people over.
Shooting unarmed teenagers.

I have to wonder what your agenda is.

P

Ya, it's getting a bit thick, for sure.

But, I don't think he has an agenda,.... he seems to be just running his mouth on ignorant emotions.

He is obviously not a Rancher, he obviously has never made a living from livestock,... and he obviously can't seem to put himself in someone else's position and realize that when a Rancher sees a lose dog in his stock, he really doesn't know if it is just passing through, if it is a first time offense, or, a tenth offense. Whether the animal is just curious, or on the verge of stepping into an attack mode for the first time, or,... back for his tenth kill!!

Until his daily bills are paid, children fed and mortgage paid from the cash flow of stock sales,.... he never will understand.

Bottom line, he is the kind of person I shoot their dogs and don't even offer them the option to bury it at their home.

[Malamute]

This is becoming tedious, I hereby retire from this thread.

[76/444]

Now if my dog would come over everyday and runs your cattle , I could see taking some action , but shooting him because he a dog on your land and chasing a cow or steer . I don't think a 100 lbs Pitbull is a good match for a 700 plus lbs steer . I would gladly pay 3X times the lost or damage to your steer . If your unarmed teen age son would break into my house , do you think I have the right to shoot him if he not threading me or a family member but he is kicking my dog .

Actually, yes. You DO have the legal right to shoot burglars in many states.

Burglary IS often considered a violent felony and the criminal may be fired upon. Legislators have wisely recognized that it is impossible for the violated homeowner to easily determine if the burglar is or is not armed. Therefore, the burglar may be fired upon with or without knowledge of any weapons being present. In addition, the homeowner is also immune to civil suits in most states for firing upon the burglar.

You may want to review the concept of Castle Doctrine. This is especially wise given that you're in Tennessee, a state with VERY powerful "Stand Your Ground" laws that would put that burglarizing teen - LEGALLY - in a box as soon as s/he entered the structure. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doc ... ted_States for more information.

Also, having dealt with pit bulls, I can assure you that a pit bull is a solid match for a 700 pound steer. All the dog needs to do is take out one leg and the steer goes toppling over. Then go for the neck and it's done.

I love dogs and don't ever want to shoot one, but I completely and totally sympathize and support the right of ranchers and farmers to shoot dogs harassing their livestock on sight. Frankly, the owners of such dogs should be held liable for treble damages in ALL states; when those dogs kill livestock, they kill that farmer's/rancher's livelihood as well.

Mike

Hey Mike,.... I had a 45 lb. English Bull Terrier. Called him Mugs. He did as he was bred to do, take a 1,800 lb. bull down by simply jumping up, latching on to its nose, twist his body in mid air after locking on , and,.... POOOOOOOOOOF, one bull in the dirt.

I am afraid you and I are wasting our typing fingers trying help this guy get educated! He's just clueless.

[TX Gun Runner]

pharmseller

Poisoning cattle.... Don't shoot my dog ..

Implied threat because you're armed... I will defend my family and do what it takes protect them

Running people over.... You DON"T have the right to run over a J walker with your car .

Shooting unarmed teenagers.... You DON"T have right to shoot him just because broke into your house . And yes I know it is legal most state .

I'm talking about shooting a dog just for walking on your land . If your fence fails and your steer or horse stumps my garden or flowers . The way most of you think it is OK to shoot them for damaging my property and remember steers and chickens are property also .

[76/444]

Just as horse stealing had a terminal effect on those caught. It was the importance of a horse in the west, not the monetary value of it, or the number of horses the west produced that mattered. A man set afoot in the old days could be as good as dead for a number of reasons.

-------------------------------------

Hey, Malamute,...we still have "hanging horse thieves" on the books here in Az. We also still have the law that a HORSE has the ultimate, unquestionable RIGHT of WAY on all highways and by ways.

[pharmseller]

pharmseller

Poisoning cattle.... Don't shoot my dog ..

Implied threat because you're armed... I will defend my family and do what it takes protect them

Running people over.... You DON"T have the right to run over a J walker with your car .

Shooting unarmed teenagers.... You DON"T have right to shoot him just because broke into your house . And yes I know it is legal most state .

I'm talking about shooting a dog just for walking on your land . If your fence fails and your steer or horse stumps my garden or flowers . The way most of you think it is OK to shoot them for damaging my property and remember steers and chickens are property also .

Thank you for confirming my opinion.
I am done with you.


P

[kimwcook]

Wow. I never would of thought this topic would invoke this range of responses. I'm really surprised.

[Wes]

Of course I want to repeat that the dogs killed were caught in the act and it wasn't a first offense for either. They and the owners were given more than one chance.
The dogs are surrounded by sheep and cattle who are owned by myself (full time rancher) and my neighbors who are full time ranchers. All of us are struggling to stay in business and can't afford to let a bunch of loose dogs cost us our living.
Where I'm at what I did was within the law. There are plenty of people who have dogs and care for them enough to exercise them and keep them contained when they're not home with them. These dogs had been loose and out of control for quite a while.
The County Sheriff and his deputies get tired of shooting dogs and have told me to take care of it myself on numerous occasions. By the time they get here those dogs will likely have done their damage and be gone. There ain't a cop just around the corner here.
I have to say a lot of the problem dogs are high energy dogs. Commonly with some Border Collie or Blue Heeler mixed with Black Lab or others. They have the energy to run for 50 miles in a day easily.
The most prolific sheep killer I ever saw was a Pit Bull/Border Collie mix. By the time I got back to the house for a rifle he'd done in 7 ewes and ripped up another 4 bad enough that I had to shoot them. Some others survived. He wasn't in the sheep for more than a half hour.
Like I said in the beginning, I don't just mow down any dog I see. But if they're doing damage, they're done for.
My neighbor weaned about 600 calves last fall and had a pack of three or four dogs run them through the fences to a county road. It took him two weeks to find them all. Scattered for miles and miles. There was four inches of fresh snow that night and he and the range detective (an old trapper) trailed them to a subdivision two miles away. The culprits weren't positively identified so he couldn't go any further than warning these folks to keep them in line. No calves were killed directly from that however, being stressed from weaning, and being run hard in sub freezing weather cost him dearly treating pneumonia as it spread through the calves. That incident probably cost him over a thousand dollars in drugs alone, not counting the fencing and lost weight, etc.
Not a week later I heard my yearlings bawling and running through all brush in my weaning lot. I got there in time to see them go through the fence at a dead run with two dogs on their tale. Out through the sage brush they went. I headed them off and dropped both dogs with my 22-250. They were two of the dogs that were suspected in running the other herd of calves off. It took me several days to get those spooky calves out of the riverbottom and willows. Not fun. Had some calves come down with pneumonia also but only two or three.
There are so many incidents that I can't list them all and I guess I'm through with this. I'm glad some of these folks here aren't my neighbors. Others I would enjoy.

[Hobie]

My dog has his own fenced in yard . If he would get out and chasing not killing my neighbor's cattle and if he shot my dog . He better hope I don't see it happen since I'm armed 24/7 . He will never keep cattle in that field ever again , I would poison all his cattle .

Threats are not permitted on this forum.

[Hobie]

As I said before, every time this subject comes up, every time, somebody has to cross the line.

Let me say this again. We don't threaten people here. We don't condone ILLEGAL acts. In every state killing a dog under some circumstances is legal. The topic was started with the recounting of such a legal act. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the act. I would think that if a forum member did agree that the act was wrong that forum member would see the lack of logic in killing more animals as retribution.

I'm going to lock this particular topic. Let's play by the rules the next time the subject comes up.