30-30 vs AR15

[Bear 45/70]

A JEEP!

You mean the levergun, right?

[JustaJeepGuy]

You shoot whatever you want, I'll drive the Jeep!

[Bear 45/70]

You shoot whatever you want, I'll drive the Jeep!

I much prefer my quad to a jeep.

[JustaJeepGuy]

Well, if you're driving--hey, your quad doesn't have a back seat! Where do I sit?

[Bear 45/70]

Well, if you're driving--hey, your quad doesn't have a back seat! Where do I sit?

Mine does or I could just drag you on a chain.

[jeepnik]

You shoot whatever you want, I'll drive the Jeep!

I much prefer my quad to a jeep.

Yea, till the weather turns bad and you freeze to the handle bar. Nope, I'll take my CJ. With it's little quarter cab, it's toasty in the cold and cool in the heat. Leaks a bit, but that's just cuz I haven't changed the door seals in about 15 years. Besides, I can drive it on the freeway, at 80 mph, as long as I don't get caught.

[Bear 45/70]

You shoot whatever you want, I'll drive the Jeep!

I much prefer my quad to a jeep.

Yea, till the weather turns bad and you freeze to the handle bar. Nope, I'll take my CJ. With it's little quarter cab, it's toasty in the cold and cool in the heat. Leaks a bit, but that's just cuz I haven't changed the door seals in about 15 years. Besides, I can drive it on the freeway, at 80 mph, as long as I don't get caught.

Heated grips and hand muffs over the Insulate gloves. Usually don't need to turn the heaters on. You need to remember I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side. Really cold to us is into the teens.

[jeepnik]

You shoot whatever you want, I'll drive the Jeep!

I much prefer my quad to a jeep.

Yea, till the weather turns bad and you freeze to the handle bar. Nope, I'll take my CJ. With it's little quarter cab, it's toasty in the cold and cool in the heat. Leaks a bit, but that's just cuz I haven't changed the door seals in about 15 years. Besides, I can drive it on the freeway, at 80 mph, as long as I don't get caught.

Heated grips and hand muffs over the Insulate gloves. Usually don't need to turn the heaters on. You need to remember I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side. Really cold to us is into the teens.

Okay, but I'm still gonna be drier.

[Streetstar]

I'm getting the feeling i'm a little younger than some of you guys (37) -----I'll gladly suck it up and take the Vette.,, but keep the Jeep well maintained for me so i dont have to spend an arm and a leg when i inherit it in 15 years

[Bear 45/70]

]

Yea, till the weather turns bad and you freeze to the handle bar. Nope, I'll take my CJ. With it's little quarter cab, it's toasty in the cold and cool in the heat. Leaks a bit, but that's just cuz I haven't changed the door seals in about 15 years. Besides, I can drive it on the freeway, at 80 mph, as long as I don't get caught.

Heated grips and hand muffs over the Insulate gloves. Usually don't need to turn the heaters on. You need to remember I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side. Really cold to us is into the teens.

Okay, but I'm still gonna be drier.

I live in Puget Sound country. You rarely stay dry even on nice days. Just getting into you vehicle from you house will get you wet. Besides I'm not a candy pants and will not desolve in the wet.

[kimwcook]

Bear 45/70 wrote: You need to remember I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side. Really cold to us is into the teens.

That's why I live on the dry side. The webs between my toes get to hurting after walking any thing more than half a mile.

[Bear 45/70]

Bear 45/70 wrote: You need to remember I live in the Pacific Northwest on the wet side. Really cold to us is into the teens.

That's why I live on the dry side. The webs between my toes get to hurting after walking any thing more than half a mile.

[jeepnik]

Getting back to the topic at hand. AR's suck. There, I said it. Let the flaming begin.

[Bear 45/70]

Getting back to the topic at hand. AR's suck. There, I said it. Let the flaming begin.

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

[Otto]

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

It's a shame you live so far away, because I would really like to have you come and tell me to my face that I'm not a "real" veteran.

In the end, I don't give a darn whether you like the AR or not. You are entitled to your opinion, regardless what its basis. But I really get tired of people, especially other veterans, telling me my service doesn't count because I wasn't in Viet Nam, or I wasn't at Normandy, or I'm not a Marine, or whatever.

[Bear 45/70]

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

It's a shame you live so far away, because I would really like to have you come and tell me to my face that I'm not a "real" veteran.

Wasn't talking to or about you, but you seem awlful touchy about the subject. OH yeah, I'm quaking in my boots over your threat, NOT! I should be in Michigan sometime this summer, do you want me to let you know when. I'm easy to find and guess what? I'm still around regardless of guys like you.

[Otto]

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

It's a shame you live so far away, because I would really like to have you come and tell me to my face that I'm not a "real" veteran.

Wasn't talking to or about you,

Who were you talking about? I think it's obvious from the context of the thread, since I dared to dispute your remarks, and especially since you already thanked someone else for their service while dismissing mine. I never questioned your service, and until the last post, I have been polite and courteous. I would like the same consideration.

but you seem awlful touchy about the subject.

Yes, I am touchy about it, because it gets old. I am proud of my service, and while I don't expect people to stroke me, I really get tired of being spit on. I was 4 years old when Viet Nam ended, sorry I took the coward's way out.

OH yeah, I'm quaking in my boots over your threat, NOT! I should be in Michigan sometime this summer, do you want me to let you know when. I'm easy to find and guess what? I'm still around regardless of guys like you.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Blaine]

Otto....Dude.....you threatened the Man....Relax and let it go...Bear don't like M16s and Jeep don't like them and I don't,and a few others, yet you keep trying to change our minds. Let it go

[Otto]

Otto....Dude.....you threatened the Man....Relax and let it go...Bear don't like M16s and Jeep don't like them and I don't,and a few others, yet you keep trying to change our minds. Let it go

I gave up on that two pages ago. As I said above, he is entitled to his opinion. But don't give me that stuff about "only being a real veteran if you did what I did."

[Modoc ED]

Otto....Dude.....you threatened the Man....Relax and let it go...Bear don't like M16s and Jeep don't like them and I don't,and a few others, yet you keep trying to change our minds. Let it go

Blaine - I gotta tell ya there is no excuse for anyone, especially, a veteran to tell another veteran he is not a real veteran kidding or not. No matter what the reason. There's no reason for it what-so-ever. Doesn't matter who called who what, who slapped their mammy, pulled their chicken, kicked the dog, or whatever. It just doesn't fly.

[jeepnik]

Oh heck, go ahead and insult me, I was just an airedale. What the heck do we know.

[Bear 45/70]

Otto....Dude.....you threatened the Man....Relax and let it go...Bear don't like M16s and Jeep don't like them and I don't,and a few others, yet you keep trying to change our minds. Let it go

Blaine - I gotta tell ya there is no excuse for anyone, especially, a veteran to tell another veteran he is not a real veteran kidding or not. No matter what the reason. There's no reason for it what-so-ever. Doesn't matter who called who what, who slapped their mammy, pulled their chicken, kicked the dog, or whatever. It just doesn't fly.

I'm getting real tired of a bunch of third grade reading level people who can't understand a simple sentence having a fit over something not about them. What I said in response to Jeepniks post;

Getting back to the topic at hand. AR's suck. There, I said it. Let the flaming begin.

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

Now please show me where I said a word or hinted a darn thing about otto? You can't because it isn't here. So shove off all of you.

[Otto]

Otto....Dude.....you threatened the Man....Relax and let it go...Bear don't like M16s and Jeep don't like them and I don't,and a few others, yet you keep trying to change our minds. Let it go

Blaine - I gotta tell ya there is no excuse for anyone, especially, a veteran to tell another veteran he is not a real veteran kidding or not. No matter what the reason. There's no reason for it what-so-ever. Doesn't matter who called who what, who slapped their mammy, pulled their chicken, kicked the dog, or whatever. It just doesn't fly.

I'm getting real tired of a bunch of third grade reading level people who can't understand a simple sentence having a fit over something not about them. What I said in response to Jeepniks post;

Getting back to the topic at hand. AR's suck. There, I said it. Let the flaming begin.

A real veteran with real experience speaks the truth. Even if he has "Old Eyes".

Now please show me where I said a word or hinted a darn thing about otto? You can't because it isn't here. So shove off all of you.

You referred to him as being a "real" veteran with "real" experience, implying that there is someone who is not a "real" veteran. To whom were you referring?

I asked that same question a few minutes ago, and you haven't answered it yet. I notice you have difficulty giving direct answers.

[shdwlkr]

First I don't like to see veterans fighting period I don't give a dam where you served, the fact you served is good enough for me.
Now as to the AR being a great firearm if you want to think so that is fine, me I hate them and always will period I have my reasons and they are mine.
As to the new ones being better built then the old ones well I had to go to my local firearm place and took one down off the rack and dismantled it and it looks the same to me as the old ones with all the same parts and short comings but then I might be missing something as I only took the ones I played with apart a few thousand times and I was my units armorer so you just might have a better idea then me of what makes them great now. I still noticed that 5 drops of water in the barrel would ruin your day, sand in the bolt would mess things up also and if the action has some sand in it seems that it would still fail but what the heck do I know.
That is my personal opinion and you are entitled to like them and I am entitled to hate them.
As to compare a 30-30 to an AR well the AR has more round capacity and in theory you can regain you target faster but I have watched some cowboy action shoots and those guys are pretty good at unloading it on target and I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end but then you might. I have been on the receiving end enough in my life and don't find it to be exciting, you may. Now as to being hit within 175 yards the effective range of most 30-30's being hit with a 150/170 bullet is going to mess up your day even if I am a little off target while the 55 bullet of the AR is going to hurt I bet you could still carry on the fight a lot easier.
Lastly no one is going to a fire fight with a lever action firearm unless that is all you have and if I had my choice I would take a M1 or M14 my choice.

[kimwcook]

Why don't we agree to disagree, gentlemen. That's the nature of things. No need in anyone getting bent.

[jeepnik]

What the heck, why do I get suckered into these things. Besides, the 45-70 is better than both the 30-30, or any AR. Then again, we could start a 45-70 vs .444 Marlin debate. Talk about dead horses.

[Otto]

Now as to the AR being a great firearm if you want to think so that is fine, me I hate them and always will period I have my reasons and they are mine.

I fully agree that you are entitled to your opinion. I never said, nor meant to imply otherwise.

As to the new ones being better built then the old ones well I had to go to my local firearm place and took one down off the rack and dismantled it and it looks the same to me as the old ones with all the same parts and short comings but then I might be missing something as I only took the ones I played with apart a few thousand times and I was my units armorer

There are no obvious differences in the basic design of the rifle. There have been significant changes in the ammunition and the maintenance requirements, at least since the initial period. I don't know the time period you served.

so you just might have a better idea then me of what makes them great now.

Guys, really, I'm not saying they're great. I'm just saying they're not junk, and I'm suggesting that you seem to apply different standards to them, than you do other firearms, such as...

I still noticed that 5 drops of water in the barrel would ruin your day,

Isn't that hazardous for any firearm?

That is my personal opinion and you are entitled to like them and I am entitled to hate them.

Absolutely.

As to compare a 30-30 to an AR well the AR has more round capacity and in theory you can regain you target faster but I have watched some cowboy action shoots and those guys are pretty good at unloading it on target and I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end but then you might.

As I and others have said repeatedly, a skilled and experienced shooter has a definite advantage over an inexperienced shooter, regardless of the respective rifles.

I have been on the receiving end enough in my life and don't find it to be exciting, you may.

Never said such. "Exciting," maybe, but not in a good way.

Now as to being hit within 175 yards the effective range of most 30-30's being hit with a 150/170 bullet is going to mess up your day even if I am a little off target while the 55 bullet of the AR is going to hurt I bet you could still carry on the fight a lot easier.

Again, I and others have said repeatedly that the 22-caliber ammunition is of questionable effectiveness.

Are you guys even reading my posts? You keep bringing up the same points, which either I have already agreed to, or don't directly address the design itself.

Why don't we agree to disagree, gentlemen. That's the nature of things. No need in anyone getting bent.

I agree. I have tried to be polite and courteous throughout the thread. I even tried to interject a little humor (Mattel) when I thought things were getting a little heated, and I HAD decided to drop the issue.

[Otto]

What the heck, why do I get suckered into these things. Besides, the 45-70 is better than both the 30-30, or any AR. Then again, we could start a 45-70 vs .444 Marlin debate. Talk about dead horses.

Well, clearly the...

[Lastmohecken]

Leveractions are my favorite rifles, and I will put my old steel framed BLR up against just about anything, for reliability, and it's plenty accurate enough also, for most aplications that the average MBR could be asked to do.

However, I have owned 4 BLRs and still have three, one I got rid of becasue of reliability issues. I have owned 4 pre-64 model 94 Winchesters, I still have three, one got sold because of reliability issues. I tried to fix both of these rifles and finally gave up.

I owned two Savage 99s, one had reliability issues. I owned two Rossi 92's, both had reliability issues. I owned a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag that turned into a jammer. I have owned 3 each 95 winchesters, one had feeding problems. I have owned two 1886's, one had misfiring problems.

Heck, I have owned two 98 Mausers that gave problems, and I have seen more then one Model 70 Winchester that gave problems. Ironically, I have owned several Remington 700's and never had and issue with feeding, or ejection, except for the one time I stuck the wrong ammo in one, and got a stuck case, but then again, one can hardly expect a .308 win to chamber and extract out of a .270 rifle, I am just thankful I didn't pull the trigger.

I have owned one FAL, and one AK47 and 4 each AR-15's, and I have never had a jam in any of them, however, I am not in the habit of pouring sand in the action, or sumerging them in water, but then again neither am I a stickler for excessive cleaning, as a matter of fact I own some guns that havn't been cleaned completely in years.

And as far as shotguns go, I have had far more malfuctions with pumps then I have Browning A-5's or Remington 1100's, but then I learned a long time ago, how to keep an 1100 running.

I guarantee you, you go take out a few Marlins or even a few Remington 870's and put them in the hands of a few average Joe's and fire a few thousands rounds through them and you will get some jams.

This whole thread has been nothing but a giant Pi$$ing contest and I don't see a clear winner on either side. I believe if you know how to keep it running a Modern AR will serve you well, and so will a good leveraction, but either just might let you down, if you don't take care of it, maybe even if you do, you might just be unlucky and come up with a lemmon, heaven knows I have had my share of lemmons over the years, and I have had some darned good ones too.

[GoatGuy]

Well put, Lastmohecken. Should put all the bs'n to rest. And 3T's, where on earth did you find such friends?

[jeepnik]

Well put, Lastmohecken. Should put all the bs'n to rest. And 3T's, where on earth did you find such friends?

Mostly escapies from Marlin Owners. We're an opinionated bunch of Outlaws.

[Blaine]

Bear was prolly talking about me........

[Bear 45/70]

Leveractions are my favorite rifles, and I will put my old steel framed BLR up against just about anything, for reliability, and it's plenty accurate enough also, for most aplications that the average MBR could be asked to do.

However, I have owned 4 BLRs and still have three, one I got rid of becasue of reliability issues. I have owned 4 pre-64 model 94 Winchesters, I still have three, one got sold because of reliability issues. I tried to fix both of these rifles and finally gave up.

I owned two Savage 99s, one had reliability issues. I owned two Rossi 92's, both had reliability issues. I owned a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag that turned into a jammer. I have owned 3 each 95 winchesters, one had feeding problems. I have owned two 1886's, one had misfiring problems.

Heck, I have owned two 98 Mausers that gave problems, and I have seen more then one Model 70 Winchester that gave problems. Ironically, I have owned several Remington 700's and never had and issue with feeding, or ejection, except for the one time I stuck the wrong ammo in one, and got a stuck case, but then again, one can hardly expect a .308 win to chamber and extract out of a .270 rifle, I am just thankful I didn't pull the trigger.

I have owned one FAL, and one AK47 and 4 each AR-15's, and I have never had a jam in any of them, however, I am not in the habit of pouring sand in the action, or sumerging them in water, but then again neither am I a stickler for excessive cleaning, as a matter of fact I own some guns that havn't been cleaned completely in years.

And as far as shotguns go, I have had far more malfuctions with pumps then I have Browning A-5's or Remington 1100's, but then I learned a long time ago, how to keep an 1100 running.

I guarantee you, you go take out a few Marlins or even a few Remington 870's and put them in the hands of a few average Joe's and fire a few thousands rounds through them and you will get some jams.

This whole thread has been nothing but a giant Pi$$ing contest and I don't see a clear winner on either side. I believe if you know how to keep it running a Modern AR will serve you well, and so will a good leveraction, but either just might let you down, if you don't take care of it, maybe even if you do, you might just be unlucky and come up with a lemmon, heaven knows I have had my share of lemmons over the years, and I have had some darned good ones too.

The only thing your experince proves is that most any rifle will function for the sport shooter. It does not make it a battle rifle ever, because your conditions are not battle field conditions.

[Bear 45/70]

Well put, Lastmohecken. Should put all the bs'n to rest. And 3T's, where on earth did you find such friends?

What kind of logic or better yet lack of logic are you using to come to that conclusion?

[Blaine]

Well put, Lastmohecken. Should put all the bs'n to rest. And 3T's, where on earth did you find such friends?

Now, that wasn't nice.

[kimwcook]

I'm a thinkin this is about to get locked.

[Blaine]

I'm a thinkin this is about to get locked.

Prolly for the best........Got way too touchy for some.

[Hobie]

It is going to get locked.