Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

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mickbr
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Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by mickbr »

but i'd rather have 90% of the posts be about 45-70's thanks......



Thats a joke btw , but funnily most 444 threads on the internet do go that way. Almost an internet law the last 25 years if you ask about a 444 you will be told ahout the 45-70.

back to the sibject, anyone used one of these perdersoli boarbuster models. Is there any truth in them handling Win 94-ish pressures?
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by AJMD429 »

.
LOL that's so true.

But if you mention 30-06 few people will tell you that is a silly choice and that you should get a 308 instead (or vice versa), or if a 45 Colt a 44 Mag instead (usually the reverse), or a 30-30 a 300 Blackout instead (usually the reverse), or if you mention 32-20 few tell you you should get a 357 Mag instead.

I LIKE the 444 Marlin - in particular since IF YOU WANT TO USE MODERN LOADS, so many 45-70 guns are inadedquate for the pressures (and yes I know there IS an argument you don't need 'modern' loads, just like with the 32-20).

That is why I got the 500 S&W BHA 89 Levergun, because I wanted a gun designed around the cartridge, and liked the shorter cartridge with higher capacity in a shorter tube. It ia 'marginally' more effective than a hot 45-70 'Ruger' load, but certainly a great package.

On the other hand, if I'm going to use 'vintage' loads in 45-70, I have fun with my Marlin '1895', and would likely love a Winchester even more, and ain't nothing wrong with a 'vintage' 45-70 load.

I just get nervous having to sort and track two different power-levels of loads, and the slightly thicker metal of the 444 in most actions vs the 45-70 makes me more comfortable with that cartridge.

Realistically, if you blindfolded me (and probably most shooters), and had us shoot 444 vs 45-70, I doubt any of us could tell the difference, and I doubt the game animal on the other end could, either.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by mickbr »

Doc the BHA in 500SW would answer a lot of questions for me too or is that scratch an itch, one of the two anyway. I just had another look at their site with the intention of working out how much food I really need or what I can sell off to get one. Looks like they have had another price jump so I closed the page and slunk off before the drooling got out of hand. :D
Main second choice being the 444 for me is having a lot of bullets on hand.
Last edited by mickbr on Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

AJMD429 wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 7:29 am .

I just get nervous having to sort and track two different power-levels of loads, and the slightly thicker metal of the 444 in most actions vs the 45-70 makes me more comfortable with that cartridge.

Realistically, if you blindfolded me (and probably most shooters), and had us shoot 444 vs 45-70, I doubt any of us could tell the difference, and I doubt the game animal on the other end could, either.
I share these same concerns and thoughts.

I’m about convinced that I should not be so eager to push for top performance in cartridges that perform well as they are.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Grizz »

mickbr wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:46 am but i'd rather have 90% of the posts be about 45-70's thanks......



Thats a joke btw , but funnily most 444 threads on the internet do go that way. Almost an internet law the last 25 years if you ask about a 444 you will be told ahout the 45-70.

back to the sibject, anyone used one of these perdersoli boarbuster models. Is there any truth in them handling Win 94-ish pressures?
I've not used the pedersoli you mentioned. I can tell you for certain that a factory 240 grain 444 will bruise my shoulder, where a 45/70 pushing double the weight is not a bruiser, at slower velocities. The straight stock that I prefer ends up feeling like a 2x4.

https://gunnersden.com/444-marlin-ballistics-chart/
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4_444_240gr.png
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the stock 444 load is running a thousand fps faster than a stock 44 mag load. It is a great load to grow into if you get the 1:20 barrel. The slo-twist rifles 1:38 barrel will not stabilize heavy-for-caliber loads. I shoot 325 and 405 gr loads in 44 mag. The early 240 gr 444 load had 44 mag bullets and they would not stand up to the velocities. The 1:20 barrel should stabilize anything you can squeeze in there. It would be a pleasure to spend time developing that round for cat-sneeze to anything that will feed. I tend to lower pressures rather than raising them, a 240 at 1800 would be like an interesting proposition for woods walking.
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https://n4lcd.com/calc/

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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by KWK »

mickbr wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:46 am Is there any truth in them handling Win 94-ish pressures?
I see no reason to doubt it. The 71 easily took 348 pressures in the lower 40s, and the 444 is smaller in diameter. The European spec for the 444 is just over 50, and I'm sure they proof it for that.
Last edited by KWK on Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Lots of good stuff on the 444 Marlin here - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

Some interesting comments on twist rates and I think he mentions some 'alternative' formulas vs the Greenhill one, that apply better to the larger caliber, flat-meplat, bullets for calculating the maximum bullet weight (actually length) which may be stabilized.

I think 6-pt Sika has some good posts on actual bullet stability vs theoretical just looking at Greenhill theory.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by 6pt-sika »

AJMD429 wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:09 am .
Lots of good stuff on the 444 Marlin here - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

Some interesting comments on twist rates and I think he mentions some 'alternative' formulas vs the Greenhill one, that apply better to the larger caliber, flat-meplat, bullets for calculating the maximum bullet weight (actually length) which may be stabilized.

I think 6-pt Sitka
First off there’s no “t” in Sika ! While I’m not gonna argue with what Tom Dick or Harry believe to be true , but I can look you straight in the face and tell you I’ve stabilized bullets up to 375 grains in the older Micro Groove 444’s with the slow twist and I’ve stabalized up to 450 grain bullets in Ballard rifled 444’s and it’s all the truth . I’ve killed a goodly number of deer using the bullets in both applications that many folks will tell you cannot work . I dunno maybe I just got extremely lucky with a almost thirty micro groove 444’s I used and the couple of Ballard guns .
Last edited by 6pt-sika on Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by .45colt »

I have had a plain Jane 86/71 for now prolly 12 years. in the caliber You don't want to talk about.......My rifle has no tang safety and has a great 4lb trigger pull. It looks to Me like the Boarbuster models all have a tang safety on them. I would have to See one in person to test the action and trigger pull. They may have ruined the action like USRAC did with a lot of their Guns. I can't imagine any reason the 86/71 would have a problem with a .444 Marlin.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Sixgun »

While is does not make practical sense it makes sense if you just happen to really like that cartridge…..no different than people opening up the cylinders of revolvers that were factory chambered for the 32 magnum to a 32-20…..some difference but I really don’t think people make these conversions for a specific animal killing expedition.

Did you know there are a few examples of original 1886’s in .22 L.R.?

This is America and supposedly we are allowed to make decisions ourselves so if you like the 444, go for it…..it’s your money…——006
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Paladin »

My first lever was a .444 Marlin (used to read Don Pendelton's MACK BOLAN in high school) Great gun until I got into the 45-70s. I gave it to my nephew when he wanted a Bear gun for WV.
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by wvfarrier »

I have found the recoil of 444 marlin to be far more unpleasant than even hot 45-70
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by AJMD429 »

6pt-sika wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:54 pm
AJMD429 wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:09 am .
Lots of good stuff on the 444 Marlin here - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

Some interesting comments on twist rates and I think he mentions some 'alternative' formulas vs the Greenhill one, that apply better to the larger caliber, flat-meplat, bullets for calculating the maximum bullet weight (actually length) which may be stabilized.

I think 6-pt Sitka
First off there’s no “t” in Sika ! While I’m not gonna argue with what Tom Dick or Harry believe to be true , but I can look you straight in the face and tell you I’ve stabilized bullets up to 375 grains in the older Micro Groove 444’s with the slow twist and I’ve stabalized up to 450 grain bullets in Ballard rifled 444’s and it’s all the truth . I’ve killed a goodly number of deer using the bullets in both applications that many folks will tell you cannot work . I dunno maybe I just got extremely lucky with a almost thirty micro groove 444’s I used and the couple of Ballard guns .
I was in the middle of typing and got interrupted and accidentally posted my partial message. I was pretty much gonna say what you said….
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by mickbr »

thanks fellas I might look around for one. Also not too bad, only 30% of the posts included 45-70 which would be some sort of internet record :)

One day i will get me a 458 win mag or 45-90 and hunt down 45-70 threads all over the internet :D
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Grizz »

mickbr wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:42 am One day i will get me a 458 win mag or 45-90 and hunt down 45-70 threads all over the internet :D
Excellent idea. I am still looking for a Ruger #1 in that caliber. That way I can test 45/70 loads that could blow up the weaklings . . .

+2 on the 45/70 tally,

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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by 6pt-sika »

mickbr wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:42 am thanks fellas I might look around for one. Also not too bad, only 30% of the posts included 45-70 which would be some sort of internet record :)

One day i will get me a 458 win mag or 45-90 and hunt down 45-70 threads all over the internet :D
I had a #1H in 458 and at the same time I had them in 416 REM and 375 H&H . All three were quite accurate with my handloads but that 458 would pound the stuff out of you .
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by AJMD429 »

Grizz wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:28 am Excellent idea. I am still looking for a Ruger #1 in that caliber. That way I can test 45/70 loads that could blow up the weaklings . . .
A friend had one in 416 Rigby.... now THAT would be a trump-card over all the other "4's"... :shock:

(he said one shot actually field-dressed a feral cat he shot with it)
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by Grizz »

6pt-sika wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:54 pm
AJMD429 wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:09 am .
Lots of good stuff on the 444 Marlin here - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

Some interesting comments on twist rates and I think he mentions some 'alternative' formulas vs the Greenhill one, that apply better to the larger caliber, flat-meplat, bullets for calculating the maximum bullet weight (actually length) which may be stabilized.

I think 6-pt Sitka
First off there’s no “t” in Sika ! While I’m not gonna argue with what Tom Dick or Harry believe to be true , but I can look you straight in the face and tell you I’ve stabilized bullets up to 375 grains in the older Micro Groove 444’s with the slow twist and I’ve stabalized up to 450 grain bullets in Ballard rifled 444’s and it’s all the truth . I’ve killed a goodly number of deer using the bullets in both applications that many folks will tell you cannot work . I dunno maybe I just got extremely lucky with a almost thirty micro groove 444’s I used and the couple of Ballard guns .
Thanks for the info. I believe you of course. I never did hand load for the 444, we just shot factory stuff. But I can certify that the Marlin 1894 that I gave my son will not stabilize a 300 gr bullet that my sbh shoots dead straight. A 1:20 barrel is a whole different animal and should shoot whatever it will feed.

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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by 6pt-sika »

Grizz wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:48 pm
6pt-sika wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:54 pm
AJMD429 wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:09 am .
Lots of good stuff on the 444 Marlin here - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

Some interesting comments on twist rates and I think he mentions some 'alternative' formulas vs the Greenhill one, that apply better to the larger caliber, flat-meplat, bullets for calculating the maximum bullet weight (actually length) which may be stabilized.

I think 6-pt Sitka
First off there’s no “t” in Sika ! While I’m not gonna argue with what Tom Dick or Harry believe to be true , but I can look you straight in the face and tell you I’ve stabilized bullets up to 375 grains in the older Micro Groove 444’s with the slow twist and I’ve stabalized up to 450 grain bullets in Ballard rifled 444’s and it’s all the truth . I’ve killed a goodly number of deer using the bullets in both applications that many folks will tell you cannot work . I dunno maybe I just got extremely lucky with a almost thirty micro groove 444’s I used and the couple of Ballard guns .
Thanks for the info. I believe you of course. I never did hand load for the 444, we just shot factory stuff. But I can certify that the Marlin 1894 that I gave my son will not stabilize a 300 gr bullet that my sbh shoots dead straight. A 1:20 barrel is a whole different animal and should shoot whatever it will feed.

grizz
I had a pair of 336/44’s and I loaded and cast for them . I never shot either of them over 100 yards but I did get the Ranch Dog 432-300GC to stanalize and shoot very nicely at 100 100 yards . Somewhere in all this I decided to have Mountain Molds cut me a 432-325GC same nose as a RD bullet but regular lube grooves , now this mold was cut mainly for the covey of 444’s but when I was messing with100 the 336-44 I thought I’d load up some of these to try . I’d not been afraid to shoot a deer with the bullet at w 100 yards or less , but on the paper at 100 yards while they shot decent groups I was just starting to get a little yaw .
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by EG73 »

Everyone has a .45-70. .444 is overlooked but equally versatile. There’s a guy who runs some dang powerful loads out of a modded marlin .444, and the 1886 is stronger than that action.

He’s getting a 405gr over 4000ft/lbs.

https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/sa ... ion.62750/
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by 6pt-sika »

EG73 wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:17 am Everyone has a .45-70. .444 is overlooked but equally versatile. There’s a guy who runs some dang powerful loads out of a modded marlin .444, and the 1886 is stronger than that action.

He’s getting a 405gr over 4000ft/lbs.

https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/sa ... ion.62750/
I think I sold that fellow the Marlin 444XLR he uses . Seems to me he opened the ejection port a bit and may have done a little to the lead in that gun . He told me when he was intrested in getting the gun he wanted to make a hammer out of it and he succeeded .
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Re: Thinking of a 1886/71 in 444 marlin

Post by mickbr »

That sounds a lot like Flat top over at marlin forums?, I think he invented what he called the 444 Safari by increasing the COAL and modifying the guns. I contacted him by PM at one stage but no reply.

Also apparently a group of fellas with a long throated CVA 444 marlin have gotten 410 grain woodleigh jacketed bullets seated right out( Swaged down from .435 to .429) to 2100fps. They equate it to a 400 jeffery, an olden day elephant gun.
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