What are your thoughts on these velocities

[bcraig]

I have been looking doe a 44 Magnum or 44 special Lead RNFP or semi wadcutter load using a 200 to 240 Grain load that will be subsonic from the 16 inch barrel Rossi 92.
Also Looking for the same type of Loads for the 357 Magnum 1892 that I also have .
I have done about a million searches on the internet and applied enough phraseology in what I type in the search bar and all I come up with is pistol loads.
Enough so that I am begining to doubt there is a soul on the face of the earth that has ever fired a subsonic RNFP or Semi WADCUTTER bullet through a 16 inch lever action in either the 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum and chronographed the load.
I dont know ,maybe they figure that they paid money for their chronograph so therefore are not going to share the load with someone who does not own a chronograph ?

Anyway ,I digress

I went to the Hodgdon site and looked up a a Load using Universal for a 8.2pistolbarrel and the same load for a 20 inch rifle barrel.
Here are the result's
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reload ... ue&type=53
Now to the 20 inch barrel results
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reload ... rue&type=5

Notice that the Starting load for the 20 inch barrel rifle is 927 FPS
And the Starting load for the 8.2 inch barrel pistol is 852 FPS
SO for an Approx 12 inch more of Barrel there is only 75 FPS difference which comes out to only about a 6.25 inch FPS average per inch of additional Barrel over 8.2 inch.

The Max load for the 20 inch barrel rifle is 1,374 FPS
The Max load for the 8.2 inch barrel Pistol is 1,276 FPS
So for an Approx 12 inch more of barrel there is only 90 FPS difference which comes out to only about 8.16 inch FPS
average per inch of additionl barrel over 8.2 inch.

So what are the collective thoughts on this Hodgdon Data
Is it right , close to right,is it wrong or is it very wrong ?

And based on this Data if this data is right then the starting load would be Subsonic for use in my 16 inch barrel using the 44 Magnum case.
Next ,would Unique be approx the same given that Unique is supposed to be about the same burn rate?

Next ,to approximate the same performance from a 44 Special case how much would I need to drop the powder charge to get the same performance .

AND,is a powder charge as low as 6.5 Grains a safe to shoot powder charge in both the 44 special and 44 Magnum cases ?

[GunnyMack]

You'll never know until you load and shoot them over a chrono.
Remember the speed of sound differs due to elevation. That load might by subsonic at sea level but at 7000' in the Rockies it will be super sonic.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Unique should be very close and it will behave very much the same.

I’m not surprised by the small increase in velocity between the pistol and rifle barrels with those powders.

But you won’t really know until you shoot it.

I am surprised that you were having trouble finding data. I would think that CAS data would get you there. Seems like some of those guys try to minimize recoil and the velocities would also be slower.

[bcraig]

You'll never know until you load and shoot them over a chrono.
Remember the speed of sound differs due to elevation. That load might by subsonic at sea level but at 7000' in the Rockies it will be super sonic.

I do all my shooting at elevations of between elevations 210 to 249 feet above sea level
I do not think that those elevation changes will make a nickels worth of difference in the speed of sound changes?

But I do not have a chronograph so this is why I am having to look for data to base my choice of powders on.

[bcraig]

Unique should be very close and it will behave very much the same.

I’m not surprised by the small increase in velocity between the pistol and rifle barrels with those powders.

But you won’t really know until you shoot it.

I am surprised that you were having trouble finding data. I would think that CAS data would get you there. Seems like some of those guys try to minimize recoil and the velocities would also be slower.

Merely shooting the gun will not tell me the fps as I do not have a chronograph.
This is why I am having to base my choice of powders and charge weights on data provided by others.
As I related earlier inevitably when I search for data on a subsonic rifle load using the internet I will be shown subsonic loads for a handgun and not a rifle and that includes cowboy loads and cowboy action shooters.
If the hodgdon data is correct and safe to use then I will probably use that.
I just don’t want to use a charge that is below the recommended minimum for that particular powder.
I would think that Hodgdon would not show the 6.5 grain load unless it is a safe minimum but who really knows ?

[horsesoldier03]

I have always felt that Hodgdon Load Data is as accurate as it comes. That being said, I am curious why you are wanting to stay subsonic with your choice of load? If leading is your concern, go with a harder Brinnell Hardness Rate and make sure the diameter of your lead bullet is .001 larger than your bore size. IMO, TRAIL BOSS is going to be the best answer for keeping low velocity.

[Ray]

You seem to be obsessed with subsonic speeds. One subsonic load will ring your ears and another supersonic will sound like a .22 rimfire. Each load combination has a different sound signature and even similar decibel readings can give you different personal hearing experiences. The whole current faddish subsonic trend only applies to suppressed arms and is not going to affect how loud your rossi sounds to you or your neighbors. Using ear plugs and buying a chronograph will answer most of questions.

[COSteve]

Standard pistol powders are formulated to burn very quickly as the assumption is that they are being used in barrels under 6"-7". So, the performance out of a barrel 3 times the length won't be that different as the powder isn't made for a long barreled use. However, magnum pistol powders like H-110 and Lil'Gun were originally developed for long barreled shotguns and then used as magnum powders for pistols. They have the chemistry to produce significant gains in longer barreled firearms.

Hodgdon's Load data using a 10" test barrel (not a 4.5", 5.5", 6" or even 7.5" pistol barrel) shows the following using a 158grn Hornady XTP bullet:
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,591fps
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 1,577fps

My own chrono testing (multiple tests over 14 yrs) using the same 158grn Hornady XTP bullet in my Uberti .357mag SA Cavalry model pistol with H-110 (I haven't chrono'd Lil'Gun yet) as well as both H-110 and Lil'Gun powders in my Rossi 20" Carbine and 24" Rifle at my range at 6,100ft asl on multiple 84°days produced:

7.5" Uberti SA Cav.
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,482fps - 109fps slower velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Imagine what velocity a 4.5" or 5.5" barreled SA would produce? I'm guessing in the 1,300s.

20" Rossi Carbine
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,789fps - 198fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 1,952fps - 375fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel

24" Rossi Rifle
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,822fps - 231fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 2,005fps - 428fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel

[GunnyMack]

You are relatively close to sea level, denser air will indeed change velocities. Develop a nice subsonic load at your house and go visit Steve at 6100 ASL and those same loads will most likely break the sound barrier in thinner air. Thinner air when I lived in Trinidad CO, 6250 ish ASL, I kept my 22s sighted in at 100 and would shoot to 250 on prairie rats easily making kills.
Some of my 338 WM loads I developed out there lost velocity back home at 980ASL.

Again unless you start working on loads you will not know, we can't tell you definitively what X grains of Y powder is going to do behind Z bullet.

[Grizz]

simple solution for you, since NO BODY's load info can guaranty what you are after, buy a chronograph. that's what I had to do to get the loads I wanted in the firearms I use. this is your very best solution, because No One's loads will be exactly what you are specifying in your guns except on accident, and you still won't know without a chrony. best idea I have, hope it helps. different guns give different results. I chronographed my 45/70 load out of 4 or 5 different guns and compared those results. the other thing you can do is penetration tests in soaked newsprint of jugs of water. but that doesn't tell you the velocity, which is what you are seeking. and finally, . . .

†
grizz

[Grizz]

simple solution for you, since NO BODY's load info can guaranty what you are after, buy a chronograph. that's what I had to do to get the loads I wanted in the firearms I use. this is your very best solution, because No One's loads will be exactly what you are specifying in your guns except on accident, and you still won't know without a chrony. best idea I have, hope it helps. different guns give different results. I chronographed my 45/70 load out of 4 or 5 different guns and compared those results. the other thing you can do is penetration tests in soaked newsprint or jugs of water. but that doesn't tell you the velocity, which is what you are seeking. and finally, . . .

†
grizz

[Bronco]

Buy a chronograph

+1

[Griff]

Even two guns of the same make and model, bbl length, chambering, etc. may not produce the same average velocity and/or accuracy. I have 6 rifles chambered in 45 Colt, bbl lengths from 17" to 24-¼", none produce the same ave. velocity, even the 3 with a 24-¼" bbl. Highest velocities were thru the 18-½" length. All shot with the same bullet, powder & charge weight. I've never chronographed this load from any of my 45 Colt revolvers to date. All have 4-¾" bbls, but I wouldn't expect too great a difference in performance.

[bcraig]

I have always felt that Hodgdon Load Data is as accurate as it comes. That being said, I am curious why you are wanting to stay subsonic with your choice of load? If leading is your concern, go with a harder Brinnell Hardness Rate and make sure the diameter of your lead bullet is .001 larger than your bore size. IMO, TRAIL BOSS is going to be the best answer for keeping low velocity.

I am wanting the lowest noise when shooting the 38/357 and the 44 Special/44 Magnum Leverguns for both outside and Inside the house in case I needed to for home defense.
I have no concern about leading ,I dont want a harder Brinell Hardness,I want a Hardness of 7-9 for Bullet expansion or deformation.
I cant find any Trail Boss, as it seems like it would give a good load density at the velocities that I want.

[bcraig]

You seem to be obsessed with subsonic speeds. One subsonic load will ring your ears and another supersonic will sound like a .22 rimfire. Each load combination has a different sound signature and even similar decibel readings can give you different personal hearing experiences. The whole current faddish subsonic trend only applies to suppressed arms and is not going to affect how loud your rossi sounds to you or your neighbors. Using ear plugs and buying a chronograph will answer most of questions.

Call it obsessed or what ever you want to call it the fact remains is that is what I want.
I am sure that there is a difference of sound signatures.

I am not trying to be faddish,just makes sense to me ,"maybe not you" and I fail to see how wanting to use a lower blasting load applies only to suppressed arms.I think that is by and large a crock of stuff to imply or say that you have to use a suppressor to be concerned about the Noise that a Rifle and effects on the shooter or neighbors,which is how I interprate that statement.

I use earplugs often but in a home defence scenario there is not enough time to put in earplugs.
And the Lower recoil is always better for the shoulder.

[bcraig]

Standard pistol powders are formulated to burn very quickly as the assumption is that they are being used in barrels under 6"-7". So, the performance out of a barrel 3 times the length won't be that different as the powder isn't made for a long barreled use. However, magnum pistol powders like H-110 and Lil'Gun were originally developed for long barreled shotguns and then used as magnum powders for pistols. They have the chemistry to produce significant gains in longer barreled firearms.

Hodgdon's Load data using a 10" test barrel (not a 4.5", 5.5", 6" or even 7.5" pistol barrel) shows the following using a 158grn Hornady XTP bullet:
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,591fps
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 1,577fps

My own chrono testing (multiple tests over 14 yrs) using the same 158grn Hornady XTP bullet in my Uberti .357mag SA Cavalry model pistol with H-110 (I haven't chrono'd Lil'Gun yet) as well as both H-110 and Lil'Gun powders in my Rossi 20" Carbine and 24" Rifle at my range at 6,100ft asl on multiple 84°days produced:

7.5" Uberti SA Cav.
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,482fps - 109fps slower velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Imagine what velocity a 4.5" or 5.5" barreled SA would produce? I'm guessing in the 1,300s.

20" Rossi Carbine
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,789fps - 198fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 1,952fps - 375fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel

24" Rossi Rifle
H-110: 16.7gns Max produces 1,822fps - 231fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel
Lil'Gun: 18.0grns Max produces 2,005fps - 428fps faster velocity than with the 10" test barrel

GOOD info for higher velocities
What I find interesting About the Hodgdon Data I posted is the the gain per inch of barrel was only about 7 FPS which "from what I understand" is far less than the shot to shot Variations from most shot strings

[bcraig]

Even two guns of the same make and model, bbl length, chambering, etc. may not produce the same average velocity and/or accuracy. I have 6 rifles chambered in 45 Colt, bbl lengths from 17" to 24-¼", none produce the same ave. velocity, even the 3 with a 24-¼" bbl. Highest velocities were thru the 18-½" length. All shot with the same bullet, powder & charge weight. I've never chronographed this load from any of my 45 Colt revolvers to date. All have 4-¾" bbls, but I wouldn't expect too great a difference in performance.

Yes, I imagine that is true
anagalous to having 4 or 5 Identical Pickup trucks all the same year model ,same brand etc ,Yet there will be differences in Gas Mileage, top speed etc.

What caught my eye about the Hodgdon Data is ,in addition to the low velociy gain of only about 7 FPS per inch of extra barrel length .was that From I understand (by watching others videos,and reading about the difference in shot to shot Variances in velocity ,are more oft than not ,to be way more than 7-8 FPS.

[ollogger]

the other day i ran 7 gr. of TiteGroup with a 200 gr. swc bullet thru a 44 mag with a 3 in. bbl
I ran 4 shots that had an average of 1110 fps, fairly mild 44 psi & low recoil, if you can find TiteGroup
i would give it a try, i fire it alot in the 357 with cast bullets mostly 158 gr.but i never have run it over the chrony
for me the 357 is my plinking or my snake gun, 44 mag or the 454 is for more serious matters
but i do load light for practise on them 2 also


ollogger

[Griff]

If I need to fire a weapon inside the house in a self defense scenario, the very last thing I'm concerned about is disturbing the neighbors... wake their BUTTS UP, call the POLICE, I NEED HELP! My future deafness not withstanding... nor am I concerned with earplugs... I want the BEST performing ammo for the situation. To me that usually means hollow points in a .45 for even bigger holes going out! Hi-Speed lead poisoning at it's finest.

[buckeyeshooter]

I shoot 7 grains of unique with a 200 grain cast for Cowboy Action shooting and it Chronos 1020 out of my 20 inch Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum. My guess is that if you used a 250 grain cast instead of the 200 you could get under 1000 fps.

[samsi]

Working up a subsonic "barnyard load" for general purposes around the homestead is one thing, but depending on the same low velocity load for serious purposes? Not me. Potential poor terminal performance, not to mention possibly sticking a bullet in the bore when you need it most. As stated previously, it doesn't much matter what it is, firing indoors is loud. I'd be more concerned with flash than noise when it comes to addressing bumps in the night.

[Bronco]

Buy a chronograph and a suppressor ! No getting around the noise otherwise! Even cowboy loads are LOUD inside. Not any short cuts to get to where you want to go

[bcraig]

You are relatively close to sea level, denser air will indeed change velocities. Develop a nice subsonic load at your house and go visit Steve at 6100 ASL and those same loads will most likely break the sound barrier in thinner air. Thinner air when I lived in Trinidad CO, 6250 ish ASL, I kept my 22s sighted in at 100 and would shoot to 250 on prairie rats easily making kills.
Some of my 338 WM loads I developed out there lost velocity back home at 980ASL.

Again unless you start working on loads you will not know, we can't tell you definitively what X grains of Y powder is going to do behind Z bullet.

Yea, I see how that could make a difference Theoretically ,but the fact of the matter is that as nice as Steve Might be*(And I am sure he is, as well as others here are ") Is that all of my shooting will take place within the alltitudes that I mentioned as I am disabled and do not travel far from home and spend most of my time in the house.

[bcraig]

If I need to fire a weapon inside the house in a self defense scenario, the very last thing I'm concerned about is disturbing the neighbors... wake their BUTTS UP, call the POLICE, I NEED HELP! My future deafness not withstanding... nor am I concerned with earplugs... I want the BEST performing ammo for the situation. To me that usually means hollow points in a .45 for even bigger holes going out! Hi-Speed lead poisoning at it's finest.

I agree to an extent BUT In case I would need to use it for a Coyote outside then I certainly think that a expanding bullet would be better than a Hard Cast bullet. And home defense.
But the Main thing is that this load and rifle is not the Only firearm in the house that would be used for Home Defense.Certianly not the First one I would Grab in case of trouble .
I have a Kel-Tec Sub2000 Loaded with 32 rounds of 147 Grain Gederal HST as well, along with a Remington 11-48 12 gauge Shotgun Loaded with Winchester Super X 00 Buckshot.Mossberg 8 shot 88 Maverick loaded with the same buckshot and various other guns . Which gun I grab has to do where in the house I am standing when I need it.
I ALWAYS Have a Ruger LCP Loaded with Winchster FMJ Flat Point on me when I do on occasion along with a Glock 26 Loaded with Federal 147 Grain HST.

BUT if I am beside a Levergun and ever have trouble and Need it I would just as soon have it loaded with a easy Recoiling subsonic load with an expanding bullet ,Preferably a RNFP of a Low Brinnel Hardness and hollowpoint.
Way I figure is that out to be as good a defensive load as a 45 acp when shot from a Pistol and easier to shoot .
Which is pretty good !


As far as Practicality , (For me)well I figure the Most practcal would be a semi auto 22 Rimfire along with a semi auto 30-06 rifle and a semi auto matic 12 gauge shotgun and small lightweight 38 special Double actiom revolver or small lightweight 380.

Same could apply to Lever lovers,Pump lovers etc.

BUT I (and I suspect a lot here on this forum) are Gun lovers who like a variety of firearms .

And basically make our decision's based on what we want at the time .

And at this time I want a subsonic 44 special or Mag(preferably 44 special for more mag capacity and less powder use) and, and, well Just Because !!

[bcraig]

I shoot 7 grains of unique with a 200 grain cast for Cowboy Action shooting and it Chronos 1020 out of my 20 inch Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum. My guess is that if you used a 250 grain cast instead of the 200 you could get under 1000 fps.

Thanks
That sounds just like the information that I wanted in case the rifle wont function with the 44 special cases and I have to use the 44 magnum cases.
I wonder how much I would need to drop the Unique charge to mimic that performance in the 44 special using the 200 grain bullet?

Thanks

[bcraig]

Buy a chronograph and a suppressor ! No getting around the noise otherwise! Even cowboy loads are LOUD inside. Not any short cuts to get to where you want to go

Yes I imagine that Cowboy loads are load inside but not as load as Supersonic loads .
But even with a Suppressor there is still noise associated with the firing of a gun,no getting around the noise otherwise !
To completely get around the sound of a gun being fired inside then the only way would be to not fire the
gun at alI.
It is all just a matter of degree and while I am willing to put up with the noise level provided by use of a subsonic loading I am in absolutely not willing to( In any form or fashion) use a suppressor on a Leveraction firearm or any firearm of any kind ,in any scenario on any firearm.
I am Just wanting to lessen the blast from a supersonic load to the blast of a subsonic load.
Which 'to me' makes sense.

[bcraig]

Working up a subsonic "barnyard load" for general purposes around the homestead is one thing, but depending on the same low velocity load for serious purposes? Not me. Potential poor terminal performance, not to mention possibly sticking a bullet in the bore when you need it most. As stated previously, it doesn't much matter what it is, firing indoors is loud. I'd be more concerned with flash than noise when it comes to addressing bumps in the night.

Potential poor performance can be tailored for the use of a lead bullet by the use of either or use of a hollow point and softer brinell hardness designed to expand at the velocities desired.

As far as sticking a bullet of the bore ,that is why I asked if if such a low powder charge pf say Unique or Universal powder was safe to load.

I have stuck lead bullets in a revolvers bore,on purpose when fire lapping the barrel of a Stainless Ruger 44 Magnum Blackhawk, using His lapping bullets .
I wanted the lapping bullets to just barely come out of the bore to maximize the Lapping affect of creating a tapered bore with the tighest part of the bore being the muzzle of the barrel.
And also to lap the notriously tightest part of the barrel's bore, which is the portion of the barrel that is screwed into the frame.

[Bronco]

Okay nix the suppressor idea ! Buy a chronograph some fast powder and start reloading and shooting ! Nothing gives you result like actually doing it. You have enough information from here to start doing actual testing to find what your looking for. I am eagerly awaiting a report on how your doing !

[bcraig]

Okay nix the suppressor idea ! Buy a chronograph some fast powder and start reloading and shooting ! Nothing gives you result like actually doing it. You have enough information from here to start doing actual testing to find what your looking for. I am eagerly awaiting a report on how your doing !

Say it aint so Bronco!

I first started reloading bout 50 years ago .
Although I have not done any reloading for probably over 5 years ago I still remember how to.
I did a lot of testing of bullet expansion in animals via hunting and also for accuracy.
And all without the use of a chronograph which I and my shooting friends did not use, as something was either a good game killer or not or was either accurate enough for the Game shooting we wanted to do or it wasn't.

And learned a lot about reloading before Personal computers ,Cell phones and the Internet and therefore internet forums were being used.

Although I have recieved a few responses from forum members regarding actual powder and charges for the loads I asked about,
I have received more responses from members regarding my request for subsonic ammo performance from the viewpoint of
why I want to do this,
All the way to why I shouldn't do this
or anything but actually providing an answer to my question.

I figured that with all the Leveraction afficiondo's That know about Lever actions and handload for them and have chronographs who have chronographed such loads for the 38 Special/357 Magnum and 44 Special/44 magnum would have chimed in with their favorite loads for them.But that does not seem to be the case.

And please dont take this as a critism of this Forum only ,as there is certaily good information on a multitude of subjects.
And a lot of friendly people here as well.

BUT, as with a multitude of shooting Forums ,there are quite a few here that apparently cannot grasp the concept of answering a question the way it was asked.

If I ask the question theoreticly of what is the best Powder and bullet for the best accuracy and Velocity for xyz caliber for as example ,
The majority of answers that would be given might be ,
Why do you want the best powder for accuracy and velocity as you dont need the best accuracy nor the highest velocity
and you dont want an xyz caliber you want an abc caliber !

Never providing an answer to the question that was asked but providing answers to questions that were never inquired about !

Now I dont mind at all if somone ask me why I want this information ,I do not mind at all explaining why I want this information ONCE.

If they ask after I have explained why I want this information to them already, then it is a given that they haven't read the entire thread or that they do not agree and want to change my mind on what I want.


If it is a case of not reading the entire thread, then try reading all the thread for the best effect.


But if it is that the case that they simpy want to disagree, then from now on I will refuse to tell them again as I will not rehash my reasons.
They are simply trying to bring me around to their way of thinking or just trying to be argumentative.
Neither of which interest me at all.

[Bronco]

Well I have been reloading for about 56 years ! I did reload for a lot of years before I got a chronograph, then I found I needed it for the information I wanted. I thought your quest seems to be in that category where you you gunna need one.
If you going to proceed with just making conversation then proceed with it. I though you were looking for information to get on with actually shooting. Because it seemed to me that the minutia that your looking for only comes from applying said information My bad and I apologize. I am quite dense skulled sometimes

Edit:
It has been given here in this site to start with cowboy loads and tailor them to your specific needs. You ain't a gunna get the information from just conversation!

No offense intended !

[KWK]

Is it right, close to right, is it wrong, or is it very wrong ?

I'm interested in such loads but haven't played with them. The QuickLoad simulator reckons the speed difference should be more like 175 fps between the two lengths. It's possible the factory rifle Hodgdon used had a sloppy chamber that didn't build pressure as fast as a SAAMI spec test chamber.

However, there's some potentially useful data at Ballistics by the Inch. They tested a 200 gn "short barrel" load, which will usually have faster powders. The 16" barrel gave 1377 fps and an 8" was still 1282.

So, I'm going to say Hodgdon's data is reasonable and QuickLoad is a bit optimistic. To be fair, QL is often not accurate at low pressures.

For quiet loads, you'll want to use very fast powders, ones that develop full pressure with the lowest charge weights. Higher pressures convert chemical energy to kinetic energy more efficiently, taking energy out of the muzzle blast. If you're using cast bullets, go all the way up to Clays. It's in Hodgdon's data for the 44 Mag.

[buckeyeshooter]

I shoot 7 grains of unique with a 200 grain cast for Cowboy Action shooting and it Chronos 1020 out of my 20 inch Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum. My guess is that if you used a 250 grain cast instead of the 200 you could get under 1000 fps.

Thanks
That sounds just like the information that I wanted in case the rifle wont function with the 44 special cases and I have to use the 44 magnum cases.
I wonder how much I would need to drop the Unique charge to mimic that performance in the 44 special using the 200 grain bullet?

Thanks

You might be able to go 6.5 in a special case. I can tell you that 6 grains is a no go in some weather conditions. I tried it and on a cold day I had bullets stuck in the barrel. So I bumped back to 7. I use 7 grains unique in 44-40, 44 special, 44 magnum, 45 colt and 357 magnum and it cronos between 800 and 900 fps in all those handguns. I can't say too much about rifles except it runs 1020 to 1080 in my 3 lever guns, the marlin 44 magnum, a 44-40 19 inch uberti 1866 and a 24 inch 44-40 Turnbull 92 takedown.

[mickbr]

i too do a lot of subsonic work but as others have suggested, you need to get shooting and chronying with your gun, instead of critiquing the quality of replies. All the info has been presented. I remember when I was chasing subsonic info I actually went along to a cowboy action meet and listended and asked the fellas what loads they were running. i was choosing between 22mag, 300blk, 357 and 44 for certain applications without supressors and learnt more in an hour than a week surfing forums. The pistol cartridges got the vote as it happened.

[KWK]

I looked at Hodgdon's data again. Use 5.0 gn Clays under a 200 gn lead RNFP bullet in the 44 Mag case. That load is safe even in the 44-40 and should be quite subsonic. The starting load for both the 44-40 and 44 Mag is 4.2 gn Clays, although that will get you revolver speeds, but maybe that's all you need.

You could use the same loads in the 44 Spl case, although the pressure and speed will be a little higher. Their revolver data for the 44 Spl case goes to 4.5 gn Clays with that bullet.

So, you could just use 4.5 gn Clays with the 200 gn LRNFP in any of the 3 cases in a 20" carbine. All will be subsonic, more so in your 16" barrel.

Voilà.