Moving away from the AR-15

[Scott Tschirhart]

After a number of years with the AR platform, two Urban Rifle courses with Thunder Ranch, a rifle course with Chuck Taylor, five deer (all of which were killed but each of which required a painstaking tracking job) I’ve decided to abandon the AR-15 and the 5.56 cartridge.

I know that it is the urban combat cartridge but I am just not terribly impressed with it. It is very easy to shoot, no doubt. It’s accurate and easy to find. BUT it is obnoxiously loud and not as effective as it should be on flesh.

For my part, I started carrying a .30-30 Winchester 94 in the patrol car in the early 1980s and I have never found anything that I trust more. The pistol caliber leverguns in .357, .44 and.45 Colt are much easier on the ear and they throw a good heavy bullet at decent velocities. I’m transitioning back to my leverguns.

[Scott Tschirhart]

And let’s face it. At 60 years old, I’m not a commando.

[AmBraCol]

The main reason I've got one is "they" don't want me to have one. My son and I did have fun shooting it "out yonder" on non-living targets, but it's not my first choice for "serious work" either. The plus is that the ammo's plentiful and cheap and it makes a nice platform for new to centerfire shooters to use. The noise from the buffer tube is annoying as well as the other "down sides" you mentioned. My heart, however, lays more with a singleshot, levergun or bolt action than with Stoner's designs.

[JimT]

WELCOME BACK!

[Malamute]

Im in about the same frame of mind. Fun to shoot (for a while), good varmint and small game round,....but not something Id be likely to actually have close at hand if I really needed it for what its generally intended use is, a lever or bolt is likely to be close at hand, and is easier to hand carry to me, and in most instances, decisively more potent. I keep a rifle in the truck all the time and am often out dog walking with it, even on evening walks around home. Nobody give a second thought to seeing someone with a lever or bolt where I am, and even being a gun friendly area, ARs have a different first impression. This isnt a new thing, and has only gotten more pronounced as time goes on.

Yes, I understand theres other rounds for them, but that also leads down another rabbit hole of spending more money on something Im just not very interested in. Ive looked at various barrels and uppers in different calibers and the first thought is "I could buy a clean Ruger 77 in _____ caliber for similar or less money and have something I actually like and enjoy."

A bolt 223/5.56 would take care of the cheap and easy to find ammo for part of the appeal of ARs for me.

[jeepnik]

Amazing! Since first posting here I have maintained that the M16/AR15 is the worst firearm forced on the American military. I have been chastised for my views. Now people seem to be waking up. It’s interesting that it coincides with a movement to replace the 5.56 with a 6.8 caliber cartridge

Seems that after about 50 years the military is admitting what I discovered in 1972. That the he 5.56 and the M-16 are poor choices for the military. Interesting, my eldest rediscovered that while on his third deployment. His third deployment was to Afghanistan. There he found what the military finally admitted, the 5.56 is insufficient in longer range engagements.

The kid remembered my words and followed my lead by “finding” an M14.

[jkbrea]

I like shooting my AR's and my levers. With 77 gr bullets I can hit our 1100 yard steel plate if it's not too windy. Can't do it with my levers. That being said, my favorite go to rifle out of several is my Winchester Trapper in .357. Great little rifle out to 200 yards. My favorite hunting rifle is my Marlin 45-70. I have a few AR's and keep them around. Carried them in the military and L.E. and have seen them be very effective. Sure there are better option, but government goes with lowest bids.

[COSteve]

I'm a walnut and steel kind of shooter, not a plastic and aluminum type so it's natural I'd shy away from those.

While I have an AR, it sits alone and unused except for the occasional trip to the grasslands where I take it. However, it's a walnut stocked, scoped A4 'Appleshooter' and I use it exclusively to plink at medium apples at 400yds.

I didn't like the platform when they first handed it to me when I landed in Da Nang in 1968, after training with the M14 (a real battle rifle) and I still don't like them. I only have it because my son likes his and wants me to have a similar piece.

I'm not adverse to the caliber as it's a cheap, fun, plinking round great for shooting bowling pins, pine cones and clay pigeons but not so much as a serious hunting round.

You want a fun shooter in that caliber? I set up my Mini M14 to mimic my M1A but in the smaller caliber and it's a lot of fun to shoot and much cheaper than it's big brother even though I handload everything.

[Griff]

I'm with Steve, I have one because my son wants me have one. I still think the M-1 Garand is THE battle rifle, and is what I trained on. And think of the M-1 Thompson as THE combat carbine. The former I have, the latter is on the "should have" list! The last I shot any of my ARs was at coyotes in the pasture behind the house... less than 150 yard shots, and while dust flew off them with each shot, they took off at the first shot and kept running. Hit with a .30-30 they seldom go more than 2-3 steps. Since their failure on coyotes, I'm sticking with my .30-30s.

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[Walt]

I suspect the 5.56 round was designed more for wounding than specifically for killing enemy soldiers because a wounded enemy requires more manpower to recover and treat than does a dead one. That combined with the greater number of rounds that can be carried by a soldier than 7.62 x 51 made it an attractive choice for the military.

[ollogger]

I tried a AR for 2 years, never could like that thing! i do like my mini 14 but i dont use it any more on coyotes
have a 99 in 243 that is a tack driver, 58 gr. v max will drop a coyote instantly, even out to around 400 yards, the 223 falls short buy 200 yards at best, is the 243 my favorite cartridge? heck no!! if i could only have one gun
it would be a 308, most likely the mod. 70 in 308 would win, my 99 in 308 is not the greatest shooter




ollogger

[GunnyMack]

I have 3 ar15s and an ar10, haven't shot any of them in years for many reasons:
Chasing brass
Soulless hunk of aluminum
Chasing brass

One I setup as a 450 Bushmaster, it's accurate, thumps on both ends but again
Chasing brass
Soulless hunk of aluminum

The ar10 is different just because of the chambering but again
Chasing brass
Soulless hunk.... oh you get it!

Give me walnut and blued steel any day.

[jeepnik]

Let’s understand the history of the M16. It wasn’t designed as a replacement for the M14. It was designed to replace the M1/2 carbines.

That’s why the USAF originally looked at it. The USAF received some small arms from the USA when they became an independent service. Mostly M1/2s and handguns. A few Thompsons & shotguns but no Garands or bolt action rifles

Looking for a long gun the USAF went with the M16. But like the carbines soldiers liked the light weight and other attributes. So it started to make inroads in the military.

Then some desk bound politicians were convinced it was the best thing since sliced bread. Small units liked them. Emphasis on small. So it was adopted. Once in general use it’s warts started to show very quickly. It got people killed.

It tried to kill me. Now I came along in 1971. The M16’s I used couldn’t get through an entire magazine without out stoppages, in training!

By 1972 I was in SEA ( Thailand ) with visits to Vietnam. I rarely used it. It was kept clean (because that’s the way dad taught me not the military). Then it failed. The case head tore off leaving the body of the case in the chamber and then trying to stuff another round into that stuck case. It took an armourer with tools to clear it. So I wasn’t going to do it under the existing circumstances.

The result was I found an M14 (don’t ask where or how) and never looked back.

Today I own a left handed AR15. A gift from my kids. But my go to rifle is a Springfield Scout Squad. That few inches makes an amazing difference in better handling. Shouldn’t but for me it does.

The wife likes the AR over the Springfield and it was a gift otherwise it would never have had a long term place in the safe, where it mostly stays.

[JimT]

1966 I enlisted and was issued an M14 in Basic and then when I got to Korea. Never saw an M16 for the next 3 years I was in. Heard a lot of negatives about them from guys coming in from Vietnam. I liked the M14 and never considered owning an AR after I got out. Still haven't.
Korea 1966 .. M14's stacked in the background.

soldiers.jpg

[TraderVic]

My first destroyer was a Fram1, built in 1944. The armory had Thompsons, BAR'S, etc. When ammunition was about to expire, over the side or we shot it. I got to shoot a Thompson, a BAR, and a mounted 50 thanks to expiring ammo.
The BAR was my favorite hand held weapon, the mounted 50 was awesome.
My second destroyer (a newer DDG) has M14's in the armory and we carried them on roving patrol in certain harbors. I would take an M14 in a heartbeat.
Later on, as a civilian in a local NRA rifle club, my son and I shot service rifle competition, using the club's M1 Garands, 600 yds. I stupidly never snagged one of these through DCM.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Don’t get me wrong. I like the gun and I shoot it well. I just don’t think it offers me anything over my .30-30.

Moreover, up close I love a 12 ga.

[GunnyMack]

Ya got that right, nothing beats a shotgun inside spitting distance!

[wvfarrier]

300blk is superior to 5.56 in every way except distance but even so.....its a levergun for me

[Old Savage]

60 years old, not a commando … neither are any of the others except in their own minds.

[Ysabel Kid]

I remember showing a friend my bedside weapons after the pandemic started - a Rossi 92 and a Colt SAA, both in .45 Colt. He asked if I was expecting an indian raid. No, but the pair will handle pretty much anything I need them for.

Scott, I'm right behind you at 59... and certainly not a commando!

[Tycer]

I’m with you too.
IMO there’s a place for a semi automatic box fed center fire rifle in every household. M4, BAR, AK, M14…

[dad]

I sold mine, never left levers just have to dust them off. I qualify with AR15 at work. I'm finding in my personal life I want the simplicity of the lever actions. They are so much fun!!

[Grizz]

I’m with you too.
IMO there’s a place for a semi automatic box fed center fire rifle in every household. M4, BAR, AK, M14…

... PTR91 fits this list

[Sixgun]

.

[bmtshooter]

I have been shooting the AR more lately than the 30-30, typically at hogs. I can reload the AR rounds since they use small rifle primers, which have become available again. Large rifle primers for the 30-30 are still not available.

[OldWin]

It's interesting how the 5.56 is such a polarizing topic. I don't have any skin in the game, so it doesn't matter to me. There is a post that got revived on the .357s suitability for deer. Everyone seems to agree that it's just fine, when compared to 30-30, as long as shot placement and range is considered.
The 5.56 doesn't seem to get this consideration, however. The 5.56 has surprisingly gained a lot of popularity in my area as a deer rifle for kids. The arguments are still there, naturally, on its ability to put deer down. Much like the .357, it requires a vital hit within range of the bullets retaining high velocity.
The reason the AR and 5.56 are used is because it's easy to shoot and make hits with. Is a deer harder to put down than a human? I would say so (discounting body armor). All the power in the world is useless if you miss. The sad truth is, most of today's soldiers and Marines have never fired a rifle prior to boot camp. They are not riflemen. Their effective range is going to be short no matter what they are armed with, given their limited training.
The monstrosity that has been selected to replace the M4 is a joke. In spite of all its wiz bang cartridges effectiveness, it won't be any more effective in the field. An auto ranging scope does not make up for poor marksmanship. A 12 pound, heavy recoiling rifle DOES, however, hamper short range or indoor engagements.

There is an excellent book called "US Infantry Weapons in Combat From WW2 and Korea". It is all interviews with vets of the 2 conflicts on what they thought of different weapons and their effectiveness. What was readily apparent to me was the vast differences in just how much of a "gun guy" a particular soldier or Marine was.
One standout interview was a guy in Korea that was S2. He would go out on night ambushes with a squad of line guys and always carried an M2 carbine. He said inside 150 yards it was absolutely vicious. The difference was, he actually went up to his victims to search for intelligence. He SAW the hits. He said many of those claiming ineffectual results made marginal hits or were missing. Blaming the gun was much easier than blaming themselves. The quilted coat thing was total BS. If a 30cal bullet going 2k fps couldn't penetrate, how could a 45cal going 11-1200 (out of a Thompson)? Nobody complained about the Thompson. But they weren't shooting it 200 yards either.
I always thought the benefits of different weapons (WW2 and Korea) within field units outweighed the costs in regards to overall effectiveness. There are too many variables. This new M7 is trying to do the same thing the M14 was supposed to do in 1957. It will prove to be no better at this (make no mistake, I love the M14) than the former.
The best option to me is to keep the M4 and field more (with additional marksmanship training) DMs armed with longer range capabilities.

[Scott Tschirhart]

It will kill a deer but it doesn’t leave a very good blood trail.

[Scott Tschirhart]

All I’m saying is that a little more bullet weight makes me feel more confident and the almost identical shot placement with a slightly bigger bullet, in this case the .300 Blackout, punches a hole through both sides and kills much better with a much better blood trail.

[OldWin]

I agree 100%. I'm not defending it as a deer cartridge. I just found it interesting that what some would apply to 32-20, doesn't get applied to 5.56.
I hunt in thick cover. While my ranges are short, I worry about deflection, etc., with a cartridge like 5.56. If it was all I had, I'd roll with it without hesitation, It ain't, so......

[piller]

In 1986, basic training, I had the only M16 left in the armory. Everyone else had an A1. That thing was worn out completely and rattled like a chihuahua's teeth chattering in 30 degree weather. It couldn't hit anything at 300 yards. Same hold, first shot might be 3 meters left, next shot straight on but a meter high. Frustrating is not even close to strong enough of a description. It would have made Mother Theresa curse a blue streak. My T.O.&E. Unit right after that got A2s. Suddenly 800 meters was easy. I am too old and out of shape to do those 4 mile in 28 minutes while calling cadence Monday thru Friday morning runs ever again, and my eyesight is not quite as sharp. Still, I would use an M16/M4 type with the Green tip ammo in a hairy situation if it happened. 300 BO is not as good for distance, but it leaves a bigger hole and seems to do much better at distances under 200 meters. It is pretty close to a 30-30 in effective ability. And, it can share 150 grain bullets with components for a .308 or 30-06.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I agree 100%. I'm not defending it as a deer cartridge. I just found it interesting that what some would apply to 32-20, doesn't get applied to 5.56.
I hunt in thick cover. While my ranges are short, I worry about deflection, etc., with a cartridge like 5.56. If it was all I had, I'd roll with it without hesitation, It ain't, so......

I’ve tried hard to make the AR into a deer rifle. I’ve taken 6 with various different loads. I’ve not lost a deer that I shot with it. So it works. But invariably I’ve had to track on a skimpy blood trail. No problem if you have a dog but it’s no longer convenient to get on my hands and knees to follow scarce drops.

[OldWin]

I agree 100%. I'm not defending it as a deer cartridge. I just found it interesting that what some would apply to 32-20, doesn't get applied to 5.56.
I hunt in thick cover. While my ranges are short, I worry about deflection, etc., with a cartridge like 5.56. If it was all I had, I'd roll with it without hesitation, It ain't, so......

I’ve tried hard to make the AR into a deer rifle. I’ve taken 6 with various different loads. I’ve not lost a deer that I shot with it. So it works. But invariably I’ve had to track on a skimpy blood trail. No problem if you have a dog but it’s no longer convenient to get on my hands and knees to follow scarce drops.

Yup. That's my biggest reason for not using it, right behind deflection. I think there are way better cartridges that fit in an AR for deer.
I just can't seem to get away from the the old 30-30.

[Sixgun]

I

[Tycer]

The M-4 puts the AK to shame unless your house clearing……

I personally can’t make that claim as a blanket claim. Inside 250 the AK is a better stopper. Accuracy is plenty good in a well-built one. Outside of 250 the flatter shooting 556 wins. Mag changes are about the same and as far as robustness the AK wins. In my limited time training on these platforms I’ve seen two guys trash the AR charging handle. The only AK issues I’ve seen were with bubba built kits.
FWIW I’ve got the same M4 beside my bed and in the truck.

[horsesoldier03]

My deer rifles are 30-30, .308, and .270. I have a couple M-4s but have no desire whatsoever to make them a hunting rifle. After 20 years in the Army, keeping a couple AR/M4s around is not only sentimental but comforting! As far as being a little light on power, anything worth shooting once is worth shooting 2 or 3 times, double taps are the minimum.

[samsi]

After leaving the Marines I never felt the need for an AR/M16 pattern rifle, but when they got dirt cheap at one point I couldn't pass one up. It doesn't get shot much but goes along in the truck most anytime I head out to the desert. I'm a 60 year old Low-Speed, High-Drag operator at this point myself but I appreciate its virtues in a tight spot.

Speaking of old military rifles, my M16 in boot camp was actually an XAR-15. Don't recall the SN at this point but it was one of the original 1000 evaluation rifles sent to SE Asia. I'm sure that there wasn't anything beyond the lower receiver left of the original rifle but it was put together right and would really shoot. Turned in a 231 out of 250 on the 500m course at Pendleton on a fairly breezy day. Young eyes...

[JimT]

Type of rifle arguments aside, I am most likely to have a pistol at hand. That's why it's called a "hand gun" ..
The purpose of the pistol is to aid me in getting to my shotgun or rifle, which ever is closer.
The pistol may be a revolver (percussion or metallic cartridge), a derringer or an auto-loader.

GunMovie.gif

[Sixgun]

Is that you

[AJMD429]

The main reason I've got one is "they" don't want me to have one. My son and I did have fun shooting it "out yonder" on non-living targets, but it's not my first choice for "serious work" either. The plus is that the ammo's plentiful and cheap and it makes a nice platform for new to centerfire shooters to use. The noise from the buffer tube is annoying as well as the other "down sides" you mentioned. My heart, however, lays more with a singleshot, levergun or bolt action than with Stoner's designs.

Same here.

NightScout levergun (in 45 Colt or 357 Mag or 44 Mag) is my go-to....

[bcraig]

I have Killed a couple of deer with an ar-15 that I put together but put it together using a 6.8 ARP barrel and a relatively lightweight aero Precision Lower,A two stage trigger from Larue.Used Hornady 120 grain SST ammo and Killed a Doe and a small buck.

The 2 deer I Killed with a .223 were killed with a CZ 527 Carbine.
I used Federal .233 Nosler Partition ammo. Both broadside shots with lung shots,penetrated both sides with a nice size hole on exit of side of about a half inch. Both at about 100 long steps.Neither ran over 10 steps.

But that does not mean anything as I have seen them run 150 yards with their heart completely destroyed by a 30-06 using 150 and 165 grain bullets ,dont take em long to run 150 yards even though they are dead on their feet.

When fed Decent ammo they seem to be a very reliable ,lightweight and accurate rifle.

Just a rifle

[bcraig]

Type of rifle arguments aside, I am most likely to have a pistol at hand. That's why it's called a "hand gun" ..
The purpose of the pistol is to aid me in getting to my shotgun or rifle, which ever is closer.
The pistol may be a revolver (percussion or metallic cartridge), a derringer or an auto-loader.

GunMovie.gif

Yep and Preferably a 'New York Reload' to go with it

[44shooter]

Has anyone ever really used a handgun to fight their way to a long gun and transitioned it into the fight? Sounds like a video game. I'd prefer to use whatever I had at hand to kill the guy, drive him away or enable my retreat altogether.

I'm not a AR guy. I do look at them, have fired one, and have considered buying one. I don't want to hunt with one of any caliber, especially 5.56/223 except maybe for coyotes. Bolts, levers and single shot rifles suit me better for hunting. I can see their appeal for recreational shooting and defense though. I have considered a 308 semi automatic as a just in case. The M1A calls to me the most. The Ruger SFAR is appealing too for it's light weight and price.yes it's an AR. It's ok, I have a pretty Kimber 308 that carries like a wand.

I do think a lever action can be a legitimate personal or home defense carbine though. It's way more than most would have nearby. I would go for Browning's 1892 or Marlin's 1894. Caliber doesn't matter much

[COSteve]

Has anyone ever really used a handgun to fight their way to a long gun and transitioned it into the fight?

Sort of I guess.

In the Army I was a Tank Commander and in 1968 I was stationed in Cu Chi. One day we came under fire and I was out of my tank at the time discussing our plan with some other TCs. All I had was my 1911 so I fired back while moving to my tank. When I got inside, I grabbed the TC override handle, swung the main gun around and fired in the direction of the incoming.

We kept a canister round (think 3 1/2" diameter shot gun shell with 12,000 pellets and a point blank range of 400 meters) always loaded because that's what we used most of the time so whoever was firing at us got a response from our 90mm main gun. So, I guess you can say I used my pistol to fight my way to my 'long gun'.

[jkbrea]

That's the coolest story I ever read here!
.....and Welcome home.

[Sarge]

I went decades w/o an AR and never felt like I was missing anything. I picked up a nice Armalite HBAR a few years ago; decent trigger and very accurate. It weighed about nine pounds and you could barely hear a 300 yard hit on steel with hearing protection on. I sold it and bought a 1955 Marlin 336 Texan in 35 Remington, a rifle I dearly love. You can watch the steel wiggle from a 300 yard hit with that one.

Last December I was looking for a plastic beater varmint gun, something with a plastic stock that shot OK. I tripped over a one day special, Anderson M4gery for $399 shipped- less than an Axis from walmart. It runs & shoots as good as the HBAR did, weighs a bunch less. It loves PMC 55 grain soft points. I put a set of Troys on it (great irons BTW) and got an Aero featherweight mount for my Leopold. The rifle won't see much FMJ and it'll never see a 'mag dump'. It's a farm/varmint gun pure and simple. If real trouble was brewing, I'd keep it handy; but what would be in my hands is that old 35 Texan, with six 200 grain Sierras in the tube and one in the pipe. There ain't much seven of these won't settle.



I don't really consider the 223 a deer gun, I did kill a meat deer with one several years ago at roughly 170 yards using a 55 grain soft point starting at 2855 fps. It stumbled about 15 yards and fell on its nose. That little bullet wrecked the heart pretty good.

[piller]

My Marlin in 35 Rem is plenty for what I hunt now. 35 Rem is a hard hitting cartridge in my experience.

[jeepnik]

My Marlin in 35 Rem is plenty for what I hunt now. 35 Rem is a hard hitting cartridge in my experience.

The 35 Rem is good enough for anything in the lower 48. Including the large bears. But it doesn’t get much press.

Seems the gun press is all a twitter about the 360 Buckhammer these days. It’s only reason for existence is to meet some state’s requirements for a non-bottlneck case. Oh and to make money for the arms industry.

Okay I get wanting to hunt with a rifle over a shotgun. But honestly there are plenty of non-bottlenecked rounds out there already.

[Paladin]

I am still an AR fan but 5.56 is my least favorite cartridge (now that I don't people hunt) 6.5 Grendel, .458 Socom, 7.62x39, .350 Legend, 7.62x51 are more to my liking for the areas and targets I shoot at. I still carry and hunt with M1As, Steyer bolt guns, Remington pumps, Enfields, HKs, FNs, Marlins, Rossies, and some others but the lightweight AR is pretty handy.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Some interesting thoughts.

https://youtu.be/ySJCPUleZbs?feature=shared

[JimT]

Some interesting thoughts.

https://youtu.be/ySJCPUleZbs?feature=shared

Amazing! To quote my late friend John Linebaugh "It's the man, not the machine."