Range report: Winchester 30-30 with photos

[KirkD]

Well men, I was getting a little stir-crazy in my office, and I realized I hadn't been getting enough range time. At lunch hour, I headed down the road to the range to try out three different loads. Here's the report.

The levergun: A Winchester model 94, 30-30, made in 1954. It is the only gun I have a name for .... Old Savage, named after a forum member here. It is a good name, and fitting for the Canadian wilderness, where it will be my 'working' gun. I'm also hoping to bag a deer with it come fall. Here's a photo I took after getting back from the range ...


The three loads that were tried:
Load #1: 177 grain hard cast gas check bullet over 27 grains of IMR 3031. These bullets had fat butts and I couldn't get the gas checks on all the way. I got them half way on, but the bottoms of the gas checks were a bit concave. I couldn't even hammer them on without mushing the bullet. I wasn't sure what this would do for accuracy, but I wasn't betting the farm on spectacular results.
Load #2: 150 grain, gas check bullet over 30 grains of IMR 3031
Load #3: 150 grain Speer JFP over 30 grains of IMR 3031.
All charges were plus or minus half a grain (my dadgummed powder measure has a hard time with IMR 3031. Someday, I need to try RL 7.)

Results for Load #1:
This load chrono'd at 1,989 fps, with an E.S. of 114 fps and a S.D. of 37 fps. Ten shots were fired at the target below. As you can see, this load was no great shakes. One shot didn't even hit the paper .... matter of fact, I couldn't even find it on the spanking new back board, which extended beyond the paper about 6" all around. I figure this is a bad load, but I think it is primarily due to the fact that I couldn't get the gas checks all the way on. The butts were too fat for those thick Hornady gas checks. Here's the target (the bullet in the photo has the gas check beside it because I used up all the ones that I managed to get the copper diaper on) ....


Results for Load #2:
This load chrono'd at 2,236 fps, with an E.S. of 98 fps and a S.D. of 34 fps.
Shown below is the first 5-shot group I fired. As you can see, this is a big improvement over load #1. I'm glad about this, because I have a bucket of about 900 of these bullets. This will be my load until I've used them all up. Here's a photo. Again, the as check is beside the bullet in the photo, because I'd used all the ones up that I'd diapered. ....


Results for Load #3:
This load chrono'd at 2,185 fps, with an E.S. of 62 fps and a S.D. of 20 fps. It's always interesting to see how a jacketed bullet goes slower than a cast bullet for the same powder charge. Notice that the E.S. and S.D. is down a bit as well. I'm guessing this is due to the higher resistance of the jacketed bullet raising the pressure a bit, causing more consistent burning. Anyway, I fired 10 shots at the target below. Here's the photo .....

It's nice when a cast bullet equals or beats a jacketed bullet. For you boys who don't think you can use a cast bullet at 2,235 fps and get as good results as with a jacketed, take another look at the photos of the two 150 grain bullets and their targets.

Concluding thoughts:
All the above targets were shot with me sitting at a bench, holding my 30-30, with my forearm hand resting on my shooting bag and my elbow resting on the bench. I was using open iron sights, and I'm out of practice. I figure that Load #2 (the 150 grain cast GC bullet) will group tighter than this, with a little practice. I did some offhand shooting with load #2 as well. At 100 yards, only about 60% of the bullets were in the black and 80% would have been killing shots on a deer at that distance. All this to say that I need some practice with this carbine, and I'm looking forward to practicing offhand shooting for the remainder of the summer. I find shooting a carbine, with its shorter sight radius and light barrel, is more challenging to shoot offhand than some of my old Winchester rifles with a longer, heavier octagon barrel.

[CowboyTutt]

Kirk, and excellent range report as is usual for you! That old '94 has some really nice wood on the buttstock, doesn't it?

Very nice of you to name it after our own Old Savage. However, I think he predates your rifle by quite a bit!

I agree with you that shooting carbines is more difficult than heavy rifles. I like to move my forearm hand closer to my body for off-hand shooting for better support and accuracy and rest my elbow against my torso, but then I can't work the lever without moving my hand which is not so great. Guess we BOTH need some more practice!

-Tutt

[Ben_Rumson]

My kind of lunch break!! Thanks for the report!

[Old Savage]

Kirk, looks like you are on track. I wish you every success. Fine looking rifle. I look forward to one of your picture travelogues into the back country. You make us all jealous.

[claybob86]

Kirk, thanks for the report. The picture is fabulous!

[O.S.O.K.]

good report! Thanks for posting.

That first 177 grain cast bullet looks to have a moly coating? That may be what is causing the prob.s with the gas checks seating.

Also, if it does have the moly, I'd suggest cleaning the bore really well and then trying the 150 gc cast bullets again - looks like you used Lee liq alox? That's my favorite rifle bullet lube. No leading and excellent accuracy. The 2.5" group was very good though IMHO. That'd be my choice for hunting.

I also read - I think it was actually one of Paco's articles about how he puts his cast bullets in water and then applies a torch to heat the noses - just enough to remove the temper - makes em mushroom just like a jacketed bullet.

[KirkD]

OSAK, I didn't know about moly coating. I did wonder why the butt ends were so thick and I wondered why the bullets were so dark... I just figured they were old .... I have no problem putting gas checks on the 150 grain bullets. That 2 & 1/2" group with the cast 150 GC's was shot after putting 10 rounds of the 177's through, so who knows what the bore was like. Next time I'll try the 150's first.

[O.S.O.K.]

I wondered about that. The moly is usually applied with some kind of wax - like floor wax that dried hard. That would certainly explain the gas check dilema.

And just to clarify - when I say clean thoroughly, I mean really thoroughly as the moly gets into the voids in the bore metal.

I also clean the jacketed fouling out when shooting cast bullets as that can negatively effect the cast bullet groupings too.

BTW - that is a beautiful 94.

I've got one made in 1961 - my birth year that looks very similar.

[KirkD]

The dark bullets do have a waxy look and feel to them, and the sharp edge where the bullet diameter is reduced for the gas check, isn't sharp at all. I'll bet from what you said that the bullets are moly coated. I have some normal 170 grain cast GC bullets that I plan to try next time as well. The bore, of course, will get a good cleaning before then.

[rjohns94]

most excellent range report

[Lefty Dude]

The Powders I use for the 30-30 lead loads are; RL7, XMP5744 & SR4759.

For jacketed I use RL7

In my Chek, CZV22 8mm Mauser I use SR4759 W/ a 190 gr. Gas Checked.

Get that bore real clean, before ya shoot the lead bullets. Even with Gas checks they shoot better W/O copper fouling in the bore.

Shooting lead bare foot, W/O gas checks most rifle's won't shoot for stuff if there is copper fouling in the bore.

[Ysabel Kid]

Kirk -

As always, you set the standard for range reports! Thanks for sharing!!!

[JerryB]

Kirk,that butt stock has some really nice grain in it. You did another great report, looks like you will have a good carbine for your trips this summer.

[86er]

Great report with lot of thought provoking ideas and occurences.

[Jaguarundi]

Classic Rifle !The rifle shows potential on the target and venison in the freezer !

[JDL]

Kirk,
Nice report. What was the range? Did you buy the bullets or cast them yourself? I agree that the heavier bullet you show looks to be moly coated as I have some that looks the same which was bought years ago.IIRC, it was Bullet Master Lube, a 30% solution of Moly suspended in alcohol to promote quick drying of the dipped bullet. Coincidentally, I was at the range yesterday afternoon shooting my 1959 vintage M. 94 with some cast loads that developed around 2000 fps, and it seems mine prefers the lighter 155 grain Lyman 311466 bullet to the heavier 177 grain Lyman 311041. I have a 165 grain as well as another 150 grain style to try out before hunting season comes around.
JDL

Disregard the question on the range as I now see it was 100 yards just as I suspected.

[Old Savage]

I believe the 177s are Bear Creek Dry Lube bullets.

[Griff]

Nice report, Kirk. I agree, jacketed performance from a gas-checked cast isn't as difficult as some writers would have us believe. I also prefer the 150gr. in my .30-30s.

[RKrodle]

Thanks for a really nice range report. My shooting really tapers off during the summer because of the heat and then I pick it back up in the winter. But, I've gotten some portable shade for this year and will try to tough it out some. Also picked up a chronograph and that is also giving me incentive to shoot further into the summer.

[oldmax]

Enjoyed the Report, Good education on Cast Bullets...TX.

[KirkD]

Gentlemen, I loaded up another 39 rounds this afternoon and hope to try them out tomorrow. I noticed that the neck length of most of the cases were quite lopsided. After thinking on this for a minute, I realized that all the rounds I had fired were in full length resized cases, which left the necks quite a bit smaller than the bullet diameter. When seating the bullet, it expanded the neck, but not evenly, making most of the bullets I fired in the report above not concentric with the bore. Upon firing, I'm guessing that the off-center necks would have one side pasted to the chamber wall before the other side, causing uneven flow of the brass. I suppose this wouldn't have been so bad if I had a neck expander, but not being used to re-sizing bottle neck cases, I didn't put any lube on the expander. It seized in the neck of one of the first cases I resized and tore the neck right off the case. The neck is still seized to the expander, which I've removed. I plan to take a hacksaw to the brass neck and get it off the expander.

This batch I reloaded this afternoon, I did not re-size at all. I did get the case neck trimmer out and made sure that the necks were all perfectly trimmed. There was very little tension between the bullet and the neck, but the crimp keeps the bullet in place. The advantage of not resizing is that the bullets are now perfectly concentric with the chamber within which the brass was fireformed. I'm expecting these loads to be more accurate. I'm trying three loads: 150 grain RCBS GC with 29 grains of IMR 3031, the same bullet with 30 grains to compare the accuracy with the above test, and a 177 cast GC bullet (not moly lubed) over 27 grains of IMR 3031. I'll post the results as a different report, Part II.

[WinM71]

Great report. My kind of lunch break.

[DavidS]

Hi Kirk,
A great range report as usual. I tried using moly coated lead bullets in my 1894 32-40 rifle circa 1903. It was by far the worst shooting group that I ever had in any of my rifles at 50 yards. I have had shotguns pattern better! What I found was a large amount of moly fouling in the barrel. My load was around 1,300 FPS. I pulled the remaining loads and bought correctly sized and gas checked lead bullets and the same load grouped around 1- 1/2" at 50 yards. I can still remember the seller of the moly bullets telling me that you do not need grease in the grease grooves with the moly coating! I learned a lesson that I should have known.

[w30wcf]

KirkD,

Nice range report. Glad to hear that the new barrel is working much better.

A reciever sight might help you tighten your groups a bit. I know that that works for me with my aging eyes.

What alloy are you making your cast bullets from? Diameter?
Did you ever get the chance to try those bullets I had sent to you?

w30wcf

[KirkD]

KirkD,

Nice range report. Glad to hear that the new barrel is working much better.

A reciever sight might help you tighten your groups a bit. I know that that works for me with my aging eyes.

What alloy are you making your cast bullets from? Diameter?
Did you ever get the chance to try those bullets I had sent to you?

w30wcf

John, as soon as I realized that I had a bent barrel problem, I suspended trying out those bullets you sent me .... I didn't want to waste them on a barrel I was not going to keep. I'm back in testing mode now, however, and those bullets you sent are sitting in my office beckoning to me to test. I'm trying bullets from my bucket of 1,000 right now to get my 30-30 reloading techniques tweaked, and will then do tests with your bullets. I tried a receiver sight, a Lyman, but wasn't happy with its quality at all. I'm thinking of ordering a Williams FP in the hope that the quality is a bit better. These bullets are being sized to .309". I do not know the alloy, as the local caster made them for me. I've just about got everything I need to start my own casting .... just waiting on an order that has a mould and handles (for a 500 grain 45-70 bullet for my Trapdoor).

[w30wcf]

KirkD,
Thank you for the update. Are you sizing those bullets down to .309"(?) or do they come from your supplier at that diameter?

As I recall, I did send some of the same 150 gr. RCBS bullets that were about .311" diameter. It will be interesting to see how the .311" bullets shoot compared to the .309's. My 94's like the .311" diameter better, but as we know, each rifle is a law unto itself.

Looking forward to your next range report.

w30wcf

[Old Time Hunter]

Great report Kirk. Have you tried any with just Liquid Alox lube?

Also looking forward to your report on the 500 grain 45-70's. I've been pleasantly suprised by my .460 sized 405grain (dropping at 435grain) Hollow Based with 62 grains of FFg out of my Trapdoors, haven't tried 'em yet in my '86.

[KirkD]

KirkD,
Thank you for the update. Are you sizing those bullets down to .309"(?) or do they come from your supplier at that diameter?

As I recall, I did send some of the same 150 gr. RCBS bullets that were about .311" diameter. It will be interesting to see how the .311" bullets shoot compared to the .309's. My 94's like the .311" diameter better, but as we know, each rifle is a law unto itself.

Looking forward to your next range report.

w30wcf

John, you did send some 150 grain RCBS sized for .311, as well as some sized for .310, and some RCBS 189 FN 'Bluetip' H.T. w.w. + 2% tin sized to .310. I have not tested these yet .... I just tested the 311291's, unfortunately, in the bent barrel. Lucky thing I discovered the bent barrel before I shot the three packets mentioned above. I'm heading off to the range tomorrow to try the loads I made up yesterday. If those go well, then I will load up the different bullets you sent and do a third range report on those. I want to make sure I got everything else working right before I try the bullets you sent. I want to purchase a mould for my 30-30, and the outcome of all this testing will tell me which mould to purchase. Do you recall which bullet I shot in your 30-30 down in Pennsylvania?

Old Time Hunter, all my 150 grain RCBS bullets have been Aloxed, and also lubed. I've not tried any with just Alox. Thus far, I've not detected any leading in any of my shooting.

[w30wcf]

KirkD,

Thank you for the update. The cast bullet I had loaded for my .30-30 /788 Rem, that you shot at Ridgway at the 385 meter steel turkeys was Lyman's 311299 which weighs 208 grs. It would be a great long range btarget ullet for a .30-30 levergun but would have to be singly loaded since the cartridges would be way to long to run through the magazine.

Looking forward to your further developments.

w30wcf