New Wildcat Project for my 1886 450 2.44"

[577nitro]

I've been working on some projects to increase the striking power without generating crazy pressures and have developed what I think is a good solution.

Working with Manson Reamers I've finalized and submitted my specs to them for a set a reamers and gauges for what I'm calling 450x2.4" JES (for now).

Basic specs are (can't give them all out yet) 2.44" .458 cal rimmed with a water capacity of 100 to 103.2 grns. This is designed to keep pressures around 47kpsi and
deliver a 420 grain bullet at 2150 to 2250+ fps from a Win 1886. Might be able to get more but I'll have to wait for the testing phase.

Photo for comparison. The below is one of my dummy rounds for fit and function testing. Just waiting for the reamer and a set of custom dies to come in.

Left to right: 450AK 450x2.4" JES

450jes3.jpg

[CowboyTutt]

So like a longer 450 AK? Pretty neat! I have a custom Model 88 Winchester in the works in 416/284 McPherson that will have similar ballistics but more pressure. -Tutt

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editori ... 0612/84509

[577nitro]

So like a longer 450 AK? Pretty neat! I have a custom Model 88 Winchester in the works in 416/284 McPherson that will have similar ballistics but more pressure. -Tutt

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editori ... 0612/84509

Basically, but trick is the taper for feeding, I have three version's, from straight taper (think of a 450NE) to no tapper and shoulder, hence the 100 to 103.7 grains capacity. Theoretically I think 90% of a.458 Win Mag could safely be
loaded. I'll proof it pretty high though to be safe.

416 is a great choice...I also have a 405 Win 3.25" reamer being made as well for a double rifle I'm building. It will shoot standard 405 and the 3.25" for heavier loads. I should be able to get 2150fps with a 400grainer.

577nitro

[crs]

Gents,
Great idea, but no such new cartridge or such changes to the 1886 are needed as this performance objective was done several years ago by our bullet testing team using my 1886 45-90 and 86ers 1886 45-70. That project was proven on Safari in Africa and the results posted on this forum. I have since posted details on multiple forums.
In a nutshell, we drove the North Fork 450 grain FPS (flat point solid) at 2150 fps MV and that shot through ele head and Cape Buffs and in Texas, bison.

The .45-90 cartridge has 96 percent the case capacity of the .458 Win Mag and with modern powders and bullets easily and safely achieves the velocity of the Win Mag.

I also have a new 45-90 double rifle that should be very effective on big game. In fact my son and I will be using it on a cull hunt in central Texas this month.


As you know, the 45-70 1886 can easily be modified to shoot both 45-70 and 45-90 ammo, so anyone with a modern 1886 can easily have their own 45-90 elephant rifle!
As an aside, I also have A Winchester 1895 .405 WCF and a Simson Suhl .405 WCF double rifle. The 1895 has used 400 grain Woodies to take Cape BUff in Africa and equals the 450/400 DR in performance.
It can be rewarding to use a dated, but proven rifle design and use it with modern ammo components to take down large and dangerous game. Oh yes our Leopard cartridge was the 45-90 with the .458 Nosler PP at 2200 fps -- devastating on thin skinned game! After the .45-90 DR is proven in the field, I will post a report with more info and better pix.

[CowboyTutt]

I hear you on the 45-90. A 50-110 in an '86 would be even better I think. I just wanted to do something on an '88 as it started with a conversation between McPherson and Dick Casull. -Tutt

[577nitro]

I understand the 45-90 conversion and ability, I even purchased a set of dies for it. However, having built a number of double rifles, I'm all about low pressure. If your achieving 458win Mag performance your also generating 458 win mag pressures, which can exceed 60K. Your loads are probably below that, but I'm guessing not far off. As with the 450AK conversion in my 1895G Marlin, I did it to reduce pressures and achieve the same performance. I can safely stay within the limits of the gun and achieve greater performance, at least 200fps more and stay within lever gun territory on pressure.

The 450 2.44" will allow for equal performance to the 45-90 but stay within the 45 to 47k range, probably lower. At 103grans of water volume it is 15 grains more than the 450Ak 2.134" and 11 grains more than the 458 mag. If I wanted to push it, I'm sure I can get 2250 fps from a 400 grain bullet, and still not bend anything.

Nothing against the 45-90, that still plan B. I do have a question on the 45-90 from the factory, what is the throat cut for as far as bullet diameter? Is it .458 of for the old BP bullets?

577Nitro-

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The COAL looks far longer than the 450AK next to it. My AK loads to about 2.75", and I think the '86 will handle 2.88" or slightly more. Perhaps it will go farther ... but those look WAY long.

[577nitro]

The COAL looks far longer than the 450AK next to it. My AK loads to about 2.75", and I think the '86 will handle 2.88" or slightly more. Perhaps it will go farther ... but those look WAY long.

Your right, about 2.88" is the max COL in an 86', that's just a dummy round in the photo for the 2.4", its been shortened to 2.8" , the other is loaded round, max length on a 450AK in a marlin is 2.55" maybe 2.56".

I've been test fitting the 2.4" and so far everything looks good, few mods here and there and it will cycle fine. I got the finalized specs from Manson and I'm in the queue. Next is dies...somehow.

577Nitro.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I didn't realize the Marlin requires such a shortened version of the AK. I was thinking the round on the left was closer to my 2.75" that my 71 eats.

[577nitro]

Here's some photos of the test fitting the 450AK 2.4" Max on my unmodified 1886. Max length that will fit unmodified is 2.8", better fit is 2.77. We might reduce the case to 2.300 to 2.350, doing test tonight.

577Nitro-

450max3.jpg

450max1.jpg

[577nitro]

As an aside, I also have A Winchester 1895 .405 WCF and a Simson Suhl .405 WCF double rifle. The 1895 has used 400 grain Woodies to take Cape BUff in Africa and equals the 450/400 DR in performance.
It can be rewarding to use a dated, but proven rifle design and use it with modern ammo components to take down large and dangerous game. Oh yes our Leopard cartridge was the 45-90 with the .458 Nosler PP at 2200 fps -- devastating on thin skinned game! After the .45-90 DR is proven in the field, I will post a report with more info and better pix.

In regards to your 405WIn, I just happen to be building a double for myself in what I'm calling the 405 3.25"(Manson Reamers is making that too at the same time as my 450AK 2.4), which will shoot both standard 405win and the 3.25". I'm building on a 16ga base action Husqavarna sidelock hammer gun. Regulation load will be 400 grain at 2150 fps equal to a 450/400 3.25" NE.

What is the regulation load for you 405win double? What was the load you used in the 1895win 405? It's a great round, I love it, that 400 grn bullet is lethal.

577Nitro-

[crs]

The standard 1895 .405 load is 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps. That can easily be up to 2400, but is not necessary, especially with NF bullets which took a water buff with one shot.
My load for the 400 grain Woodleigh is 2100 fps and does kill Cape Buff. Solids at that velocity will take ele too and shoot through all buff.

Simson &CO .405 WCF

Regulation load is 300 grain Hornady at 2250 fps.
Regulation load of 400 grain Woodie is 2100 fps.

Important point for doubles is that VV N133 powder generates 12,000 PSI LESS peak pressure than other powders at the same velocity. Curve is smooth with no sharp peaks.
I now use N133 in all my hand loads.

Taking my .45-90 DR on its first hunt this weekend (if no rain) and get some meat for freezer.

[577nitro]

Those are some nice doubles, I love the wood, very nice. Loads right on for the 405W, I've built one for a friend on a 20ga action, light and fast.

Now if I can just get somebody to sponsor me on a trip to Africa for a DG hunt with my doubles..and LG's wildcat's...I'll gladly write up a nice fat article on it!

577Nitro-

[JFE]

Your 450 wildcat is a logical extension of the 450 Alaskan. The 450 Alaskan was designed around the 348 Win case but with good strong brass available in 50/110, it would make sense to design a new cartridge that would utilise a full length 50/110 case.

I assume your wildcat is based on a necked down 50/110 case. It bears some similarity to the experimental 46 WCF cartridge that Winchester never released. The Winchester version had a longer neck, shallow shoulder angle and narrow shoulder for functioning in the 1886.

I’ve been toying with building a 46 WCF as I think it would make the ultimate 458 conversion for an 1886 rifle.

[577nitro]

Your 450 wildcat is a logical extension of the 450 Alaskan. The 450 Alaskan was designed around the 348 Win case but with good strong brass available in 50/110, it would make sense to design a new cartridge that would utilise a full length 50/110 case.

I assume your wildcat is based on a necked down 50/110 case. It bears some similarity to the experimental 46 WCF cartridge that Winchester never released. The Winchester version had a longer neck, shallow shoulder angle and narrow shoulder for functioning in the 1886.

I’ve been toying with building a 46 WCF as I think it would make the ultimate 458 conversion for an 1886 rifle.

Exactly, the base case is the 50/110, it's more of a 45/110 than its a 450Ak extension. The final design utilized very few of the 450Ak dimensions, working with the machinist and prototyping different combinations I was able to max out the volume while still being able to cycle the action reliably. Every trick was used to increase the capacity. I found a little more length, but the base case is at it max, the only way for more is to increase the COL, which I think can be done to the action with little effort. With the current configuration, only a few small changes are needed for smooth cycling. The case capacity is close to the .458 Lott, so I'm estimating that I should be able to come close to about 90% of those loads, which puts it in the lbs energy of a real "stopper" cartridge. The beauty of it, for me at least, is that you have the second fastest action type now being able to be used for dangerous game. The first being a double, then the lever gun then the bolt...and you can have 7 rounds loaded. I know that many have used lever guns to hunt DG, but in order to be considered a "stopper" the unofficial rule has always been 5000lbs of muzzle energy minimum. Its been difficult and dangerous (IMHO) to reach that with basically 2" cases, pressures are just too high, and barrels too short. I know that others have come up with similar configurations, and I considered all of those before deciding to make my own. The one thing I decided early on was the need for a great selection of bullets, readily attainable and proven, in the field. Nothing beats the .458 for that....period. The other consideration is the strength of the extraction system, which includes the rim and the "claw". On the 1886 it's about 1/8", not that big, which gives the potential for stuck cases, thus again another reason for low pressure. The upside is that the 50/110 rim is .070" which is fairly thick and strong; unlike the typical British rimmed cases which are half as thick. At the turn of the 20th(not19th) century many a fine young Englishman fell prey to the stuck case in his newly minted nitro double, and didn't return home.

It's about 3 months right now for the bits to come in....can't wait!

577nitro

[CowboyTutt]

NItro, it sounds like you really did your homework here! Well done my friend. The McPherson 510 Kodiak Express was also a good option but hard to come by now as Mic has retired from gunsmithing. You are right and the selection of 458 bullets is very useful. I look forward to your results. Really well done and regards! -Tutt

[JFE]

Here’s a link to a reference to the experimental 46 WCF:

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/46-wi ... enter-fire

[577nitro]

Here’s a link to a reference to the experimental 46 WCF:

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/46-wi ... enter-fire

Looks promising, I wonder what the H2O volume is?

577Nitro-

[577nitro]

NItro, it sounds like you really did your homework here! Well done my friend. The McPherson 510 Kodiak Express was also a good option but hard to come by now as Mic has retired from gunsmithing. You are right and the selection of 458 bullets is very useful. I look forward to your results. Really well done and regards! -Tutt

Thank you sir! I'll be updating as progress is made. Mic is great, I would say I'm a student of his work for sure.


577Nitro-

[JFE]

Here’s a link to a reference to the experimental 46 WCF:

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/46-wi ... enter-fire

Looks promising, I wonder what the H2O volume is?

577Nitro-

In practical terms I doubt you’d lose much capacity compared to your wildcat, but the long neck of the 46 WCF would be handy for cast bullet users and the relaxed case dimensions would feed real slick.

[CowboyTutt]

NItro, it sounds like you really did your homework here! Well done my friend. The McPherson 510 Kodiak Express was also a good option but hard to come by now as Mic has retired from gunsmithing. You are right and the selection of 458 bullets is very useful. I look forward to your results. Really well done and regards! -Tutt

Thank you sir! I'll be updating as progress is made. Mic is great, I would say I'm a student of his work for sure.


577Nitro-

Well, it sounds like you are a "Brother in Arms" with similar handloading upbringing LOL! Sometimes these concepts we learn spill over onto other gunsmiths. Mic was well known for lengthening the actions of lever guns, both Marlin and Winchester, to maximize over-all cartridge length that could still function. He was really good at relocating pivot points and parts to make that so.

Usually resulted in about 1/10th of an inch longer, maybe more in some cases. I think his 440 Corbon rifle for Jim W were even longer, but as I didn't own the rifle itself, I cannot say. And Jim has passed it on to a friend now I believe.

I can tell you I purchased a CZ 550 bolt action in 375 H&H years ago. I had it converted by a local competent gunsmith in Monterey, CA to 375 Ackley Improved, but I pulled a '"McPherson" stunt, and had him also convert it to 375 AI, but also lengthen the throat to the maximum length the action would cycle in a bolt gun.

Well, its a blown out AI case now, with a cartridge that is 1/4 inch longer COL as well. I get really good velocities out of this thing using 350 grain MatchKing and soon 390 grain A-Tip Match bullets.

QuickLoad is my friend and it seems that Alliant RL 26 is my best friend for this new load with the 390.

You have certainly done your homework, and again, I look forward to the results! Seems we are cut from the same cloth! I might be able to help you with load data with QuickLoad, I am still learning it, but I'm getting better at it. Let me know.

Regards,

-Tutt







,

[577nitro]

Well boys I finally got the Reamer for this about three months ago from Manson Reamers, great quality as usual. Hornady requires a fire formed cartridge to make the dies, so I need to somehow load a couple rounds the hard way. I haven’t reamed the 1886 yet, just haven’t had time, working on a couple doubles for some folks. One is in my own wildcat which is based on the. 405Win, but is 3.25” and throated for the longer 400 grain .410 bullet. My version of a 450/400 NE. Being thinner it can be built on a slimmer action. The 450 2.44” (I need a name for it, I was thinking 450 Folcrum) cases I was able to hand make came out to 109 grains of water…which is 458 Lott range. Now that I finished up the 1895G 3.175” cartridge mod I’ll start looking at this more..far easier to mod a 1886 than a Marlin!

Cheers 577nitro

[GunnyMack]

Well I might have to speak with you Nitro!!
I'd love to make a set of 41 mag barrels for my 28ga Rizzini and maybe a set of hornet or 218 bee for my CZ 410.
Sadly I never had a chance to make a set of doubles in school- I know the theory behind it but not the practice of it.
You do beautiful work!

[Tycer]

Fun thread to follow!

[piller]

I have a book by one of the people who made one of CRS' double guns. I just don't have the time or place. I want to put a 9.3X76 or something like that into a double on an old 20 gauge action I have. I will go over to Shilen for the barrels as they are 25 miles away and will do special projects if reasonable.

[piller]

I haven't looked it up well yet. There is a 9.something rimmed cartridge that is straight wall and operates at a reasonable pressure for what I want to do. I think it sounds fun. I plan on starting this Fall.

[577nitro]

You’re thinking about the 9.3x72R similar to a 375H&H rimmed. Legal in most African counties for dangerous game, little on the high side for pressure on a break action, but there are a few out there. Use a strong action with bushed pins so you don’t have a primer failure blow the butt stock up in your face.

577nitro

[piller]

I just looked at my notes. 9x 57 rimmed is what I was looking at. Less power and less pressure. A 20 gauge shotgun action is not really strong enough for much more. I have something in a combo for when I want to launch 400 grains at 1300 fps.

[JFE]

Well boys I finally got the Reamer for this about three months ago from Manson Reamers, great quality as usual. Hornady requires a fire formed cartridge to make the dies, so I need to somehow load a couple rounds the hard way. I haven’t reamed the 1886 yet, just haven’t had time, working on a couple doubles for some folks. One is in my own wildcat which is based on the. 405Win, but is 3.25” and throated for the longer 400 grain .410 bullet. My version of a 450/400 NE. Being thinner it can be built on a slimmer action. The 450 2.44” (I need a name for it, I was thinking 450 Folcrum) cases I was able to hand make came out to 109 grains of water…which is 458 Lott range. Now that I finished up the 1895G 3.175” cartridge mod I’ll start looking at this more..far easier to mod a 1886 than a Marlin!

Cheers 577nitro

You certainly have a few irons in the fire.

1. 450/2.44”
Interested to see how this works out.

2. Stretched 405Win
On a different forum there was talk of producing a run of U/O barrel sets for a wildcat based on the 9.3x74R necked up to 405. The barrel sets were for Finnclassic U/O rifles, which I believe have now been discontinued. The goal was to produce 450/400 performance from an easily obtainable cartridge case. Being quite a slim cartridge, 9.3x74R is chambered in 12ga, 20ga and 28ga shotgun frames.

3. 1895G 3.175” cartridge
You need to tell us more about this one.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Looking forward to seeing the results. I think the 50/110 is a 2.4" case but it was originally loaded with that really short lead bullet that kept the OAL in range. As I recall, there were some relief cuts needed inside the receiver to allow it to maneuver through the loading gate.

[577nitro]

Marlin 1895G 3.175” length COL Mod.

I have been studying how to do this for months and months, since I was waiting on my reamers and other parts and finally decided I had it fingered out. I wanted to be able to use longer bullets without having to seat them so far down and lose case capacity. This particular 1895G (my test mule) is currently chambered in 450AK, so I’m basically creating a long throat version of it…the 450AK Long Throat. I have a reamer that will allow me to throat it out to accept the max length I can get in it, slightly less throat than a .458mag. I made the mods to the carrier per Mic’s M book, however there is a lot left out and I had to smith it out for myself. Good news is it works just fine, I didn’t destroy any parts f’ing things up! It took some time tuning the rocker and lever its not just drill here cut there, it’s a fine line between complete failure and reliable. I’m trying to find a way of not having to modify the barrel, I determined that if I can move the ejector just 1/8” back I can eject unfired rounds reliably. I either have to make one myself or move the hole back. Along with the Len mod I also a while back smoothed the actioned out and lapped the locking lug to the frame and bolt….per Mic.

I’ll try to push some photos up today..have to do the whole phone, email to self, download nonsense.

577nitro-

[577nitro]

I just looked at my notes. 9x 57 rimmed is what I was looking at. Less power and less pressure. A 20 gauge shotgun action is not really strong enough for much more. I have something in a combo for when I want to launch 400 grains at 1300 fps.

You know, I think I did look at the 9.75r case for the 405Win 3.25..it’s very similar. For my cases I found the Bertram makes 405 basic which comes in 3.25” I bought as many as I could find…150 cases. Also 40-90 Sharps is very similar as well…case wise.

577nitro-

[577nitro]

Photos

The modified carrier, failed ww guns extractor, and some cool big dog cartridges.


577nitro

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[577nitro]

More photos of fitment

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[piller]

If it can eject a live round, then it seems that you have the C.O.A.L. right. I understand that is a dummy, but there shouldn't be any length differences. Obviously you know this.