From Colt

[Old Savage]

Here’s one to look at, ponder.

[flightsimmer]

So, as Paul Harvey would say, what is the rest of the story?

Any damage? Oh, I see, it pushed the firing pin out of the frame. You think it can be fixed or is the frame damaged?

[JRD]

It’s missing the firing pin bushing.
That needs to be repaired before it’s shot again.

[GunnyMack]

Yup bushing is welded to the case or so it appears. Yup thats a return to factory for repair in my book. Can you still see the threads in the frame or are they ripped out?

[JimT]

The firing pin bushing is a press-fit with a cross-pin holding it in place, if it's a real Colt.
USFA and Uberti's that I've had were fitted the same way.
BUT .. losing a firing pin bushing is not unheard of. I know of a case where the old Single Action Army went full auto, the primer blowing back cocked the hammer and since the trigger was held down, the gun fired 5 times automatically. There was a fatality involved. The investigation proved what had happened.

[Blaine]

A Rossi wouldn't have done that.

[.45colt]

Keep it down Blaine be very , very carefull......................the RRH is about and can sniff these threads out and vaporize the poster................ . .

[Sixgun]

That's because it's cheap foreign junk. Compare your junk (if it's yours) with a real Colt. The junk from the OP has been deceptively edited.

[Griff]

A Rossi wouldn't have done that.

Rossi didn't make SAA copies.

Jim, I can't find where a cross pin is in my early 3rd Gen Colts. Did the 3rd gen guns use one?

[JimT]

The hammer on the gun missing the recoil bushing looks different than the hammer on Sixgun's Colt.

1.JPG

2.JPG

I've not seen a single action with a screw in the hammer like that. I have had Uberti's and Armi San Marco's and they never had that.

[Sixgun]

Jim....I knew that and you proved it with a picture...THANK YOU MASTER! I was waiting for more laughs before I exposed em. Did manage to get a couple but I expected it from them. .....you also notice the frame near the cylinder window was edited to delete the junk makers name.

Just another classic example of a guy who lives in a million dollar house, belongs to the exclusive Beverly Hills Golf Course, drives a $50,000 Jeep and saves a stinkin' $1,000 to buy junk. (that's if it's Fred's wannabe Colt...I don't think it is as Fred does have real Colts.)

You got to get up pretty early to fool old Colt gun wizards like Jim and I.

I tell ya, it's Christmas, your birthday, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, Flag Day, Easter, Memorial Day, Good Friday, and Presidents Day, .........everyday......if you want it to be. The trick is to buy Colts.... -----000006

Yep...it was meant for me and like a car that has a bad carburetor adjustment, it back fired.

[JimT]

Jim, I can't find where a cross pin is in my early 3rd Gen Colts. Did the 3rd gen guns use one?

I don't know about the 3rd Generation Colts. On the others the retaining pin went in from the right side at an upward angle. If the gun finished properly it is almost invisible.

On the Colt it is right about here

IMG_2317.JPG

On a Ruger you can see the hole where the pin goes in

IMG_2319.JPG

[Blaine]

A Rossi wouldn't have done that.

Rossi didn't make SAA copies.

Jim, I can't find where a cross pin is in my early 3rd Gen Colts. Did the 3rd gen guns use one?

D.a..m.n, we need a sarcasm font....No sh*t they didn't. They did make good basic revolvers for a time. If they did, they would be a lot better than that. Elmer blew up colts on a regular basis.

[Old Savage]

Interesting question for the knowledgeable. Now when it comes to Colt knowledge I think Six is at the top. It looks as if JimT is also very knowledgeable as in the SSA area with Six, I will have to see how that plays out. Others like to chime in of course.

Now, my knowledge is limited. Only have 3rd Gens. But, here is a picture of a 3rd Gen Colt.

In he original pic the “recoil shield” is gone.

Last is a Colt in a Barranti, tops!!!

[Sixgun]

Fred, your only partly right.....Jim T knows more about the generalities of a Colt than me.....the mechanics, all around shooting and what makes them shoot and the many secrets of "what to do if" scenarios......knowledgeable people know their limits and I've seen Jim do a lot of things I never heard about or experienced.....he is the "master" and I'm proud and honored to know him.....I MAY know more on the collecting end of it......of course Jim had one of the best teachers, his dad. I'm the book smart guy and top graduate of the "School of Hard Knocks".

Nobody learns it all by themselves and I learned a lot from Jim and Paco and of course Skeeter and Elmer.

That's not you junk gun at the top is it? An honest mistake.......---6

Your Colt is PRISTINE....the 44 Spl?

[piller]

Would a Smith do that? Or, are they designed better?

[JimT]

I am no "master" .. just an experimenter ... who was blessed to grow up with a Dad who knew his stuff and who shared it with me. He knew a lot folks who were doing cutting edge stuff and as a kid I got to hang around them. One was a man who held the US benchrest title for 5 years ... others were old-time exhibition shooters who shot for Winchester and Remington and other companies. It was an exciting time for a kid!

[Old Savage]

Does sound like a great opportunity. No one but me was interested in guns growing up. Bought a K 22 and a Stevens 12 ga. double, thousands through the K 22. Started with Outdoor Life and a 61 Winchester catalog. Eventually got what I was looking at there but many years later.

[M. M. Wright]

Here’s one to look at, ponder.

It is not possible to get that case out of the gun with the recoil shield attached to the primer/cartridge case. Can't happen. The little bugger is staked in place with a tool that comes in through the barrel or through the threaded hole where the barrel goes. Colt doesn't use a pin to hold it in. I usually just use a little no. 75 Loctite and a center punch. It happens often enough that I keep a couple of spares in my SAA parts box.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

To me, it simply looks like the round was fired with the bushing already absent. It just looks like the primer inverted itself with nothing to hold it in place. There's just not enough metal for that to be the bushing attached to the back of the round.

[Old Savage]

Another picture from the original post.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I shot a Sheriff's Department issue 686 so much that the bushing was damaged and had to be sent back to Smith. I carried a SAA while we waited for the gun to come back and I would have been just as happy for S&W to never send it back. But I have never seen this with a Colt.

[JimT]

I shot a Sheriff's Department issue 686 so much that the bushing was damaged and had to be sent back to Smith. I carried a SAA while we waited for the gun to come back and I would have been just as happy for S&W to never send it back. But I have never seen this with a Colt.

Back in the 1980's when we were experimenting with 300 gr. bullets in the 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, the primer setback battered the recoil bushing in the Blackhawk to the point where the firing pin was stuck in the full forward position. I pulled the recoil bushing and found it to be pretty soft. I ordered several more, fitted one, pulled it out and case hardened it and then installed it. It has been in the gun ever since then, gone through countless heavy loads and has never had a problem. Things can happen to any firearm, though the quality-made guns USUALLY have less problems.

[piller]

Jim, how did you case harden it?

[JimT]

Jim, how did you case harden it?

I wrapped it in leather, wrapped tinfoil around that, put in an old metal bandaid can and stuck it in the coals of my wood stove. I forget the exact time I left it .. would have to look it up again but was probably a half hour or so. Took it out and quenched it in water.

I practiced on 16 penny nails until I got them to where a file would skate on them. I recorded the time left in the heat with each one. When I got it right that's what I used for the bushing.

The carbon from the leather puts a very thin case hardening into the metal. (It is not Color case hardening.)

[Old Savage]

Put a tri tip on indirect in the Weber for 25 min at 550°. Turned out just like the picture on the Omaha steaks ads. Might give it 5 more minutes next time.

These are rib eyes but same general idea, cover was on of course to cook.

[765x53]

Another picture from the original post.

So, it is genuine, over rated, over priced Colt junk.
Maybe the new Czech owners can make long needed improvements in quality.

[Sixgun]

Fred,
If you want to harden those steaks a bit just heat them up to bring get red and quench them in this stuff...Kasenit.....I use it for all kinds of hardening projects around here ....got a cheap knife? sharpen it like a razor then use this stuff.

[GunnyMack]

Ya beat me to it Six! Casenite is great stuff. Best of all you can do repeated treatments for deeper hardening.
Real case hardening with a crucible and charcoal normally gives IIRC about .007-.010" surface hardening. But that is enough to make thin things brittle enough to break... don't ask me how I know.

Cyanide was also used years ago. Buddy's family business had molten pots of it for hardening, back in the 50s a bad hurricane flooded the shop including the heat treat shop. Downstream was the state fish hatchery- i forget how many thousands of fish died but I know who paid for em !

[JimT]

There are better ways of case hardening than the leather method. I learned that from Turner Kirkland .. the guy who started Dixie Gun Works. He had a collection of the old-time ways of doing things and by golly, they worked!

[Scott Tschirhart]

Its a shame that so many of those ideas and techniques are likely to pass on out of common knowledge.

[Sixgun]

Well Jim, back in those days people had to use their brains...today, with the internet, everyone is an expert. I've got books downstairs that I paid $50-100 for 25 years ago....today I have to give them away which isn't going to happen.

Got a complete Gun Digest set from 1950 to around 2010 when I quit buying them.....got some serious bucks in the early ones from the fifties.....no one wants em or they want to give me $5 a piece......I'll throw in the burn pit before that happens.

[JimT]

Well Jim, back in those days people had to use their brains...today, with the internet, everyone is an expert. I've got books downstairs that I paid $50-100 for 25 years ago....today I have to give them away which isn't going to happen.

Got a complete Gun Digest set from 1950 to around 2010 when I quit buying them.....got some serious bucks in the early ones from the fifties.....no one wants em or they want to give me $5 a piece......I'll throw in the burn pit before that happens.

Don't burn 'em Sixgun. There are some young shooters/reloaders out there who will read the stuff. Sure, you have to wade through a lot of murky water to find them, but they are there. I gave a young man my set of P.O. Ackley books a couple years ago. He has read through them twice now. Find those kind and your investment in those books pays off.

[765x53]

Its a shame that so many of those ideas and techniques are likely to pass on out of common knowledge.

Turner Kirkland shared those techniques and knowledge in his catalogs.
Any older Dixie Gun Works catalog is a treasure trove of knowledge to be preserved.

[piller]

Jim, I have heard of using bone in a case hardening procedure. There are a few methods. Sounds as if your method worked. Cyanide is the method I don't feel comfortable learning about.

I looked and my Ruger Blackhawk has that same bushing despite the age difference between our pistols. I am not messing with mine unless it goes bad.

[marlinman93]

A lot of guys from young to old look at me like I've lost my mind when I spend good money on gun related books. They usually say something about how they could buy a nice gun for a half dozen of those books. I just smile, as I know how much money they'll waste by not investing in good gun books.

[JimT]

I looked and my Ruger Blackhawk has that same bushing despite the age difference between our pistols. I am not messing with mine unless it goes bad.

Yessir .. Ruger sixguns ... even the .22's ... have a firing pin bushing. Same with S&W. Some cheaper guns were made without them. Their service life was pretty short for anyone who shoots a decent amount of time.

[Sixgun]

Jim, I'm just rattling on.....not gonna burn em.......just a bit dismayed at the disinterest in books and anything more than a few years old.

I can't believe how much money and abundance of material items that are out there.....this young generation buys everything new. Used stuff, even in like new condition is looked upon as junk and "only poor people go to flea markets."

Buddy of mine called a few months ago and asked if I wanted a like new Maytag dryer as his mom wanted a new one...I said, "sure". He didn't want nothing for it....probably a $500 dryer.....He's a drunk so I picked up a couple of cases of beer and dropped it off at his place a week later.

[JimT]

Sixgun ... It can get discouraging ... but it's sorta like fishing. Keep the hook in the water. You'll catch something sooner or later.

Recoil Bushings. Not all revolvers have them. Cheap guns try to get by without them. A friend had a gun he wanted me to look at. He said the cylinder would not rotate properly after he firing a shot. The gun was tied up pretty tight. This is what I found ...

IMG_2261.JPG

A High Standard .22 .. Aluminum frame .. no recoil bushing. Some of these were made with an extra .22 Magnum cylinder. Looks like the frame could not take the pressure. There are marks on the right plate also.

Fired .22 Long Rifle

IMG_2263.JPG

[Sixgun]

Some interesting pics Jim. On a very serious note I never could understand the reasoning behind cheap guns.....cheap, not inexpensive.....a Mossberg or a Stevens are inexpensive, not cheap junk. Does anyone want to buy a cheap steering wheel for their car?

I don't believe anyone cannot afford a decent no frills old Smith like a model 10..........like you posted earlier, all manufacturers can have bad ones but when the bad ones outnumber the good ones it's time to stop bragging on junk and make real complaints.

Your pic of a High Standard is mind boggling......I've had more than a few High Standard semi autos and all were top notch. Never did have one of their revolvers considering them on the same quality as H&R and Charter Arms revolvers.....OK, but not for longevity.....or for me.

No brag, like you, I'm experienced on most all brands of guns and have seen a lot...early Uberti s were j.u.n.k. The stupid safety thing they had on the bottom of the hammer was known to break and tie up the gun. I've fixed several by eliminating it all together for buddies. I won't even touch any of that Italian junk anymore. My mind is closed on them.

Here's a Smith & Wesson #1 .22 Short from about 1868....I've shot it 4-500 rounds and it still locks up tight....it has something of a recoil bushing....a raised portion of some sort.

Well, Sanford and Son is getting ready to come on...I need my humor before going to bed and he delivers.



Here's a Smith and Wesson .32 S&W Short from 1882....tight as the day it was made after around 500 rounds....with the recoil bushing.



The 1862 Colt Police in the background still hums away...reliably.----006

[JimT]

Turner Kirkland shared those techniques and knowledge in his catalogs.
Any older Dixie Gun Works catalog is a treasure trove of knowledge to be preserved.

Exactly! It's why I encourage shooters to READ!!

[JimT]

Not all the High Standard guns were made cheap. For years their semi-autos held many of the handgun records and their .22 Magnum Derringer is still a prized possession. They made some doubleaction .357's and I believe it was the Double Nine .22 that was all steel and a decent gun. But .. gun companies get sold and management gets changed and competition heats up causing the bean counters to try and come up with ways to make the product but cheaper. As my friend John Taffin says, "Cheap is too expensive."

[piller]

In most things, there is lower price and there is cheap. For example, try a Mora knife. Lower priced and it still holds a good edge. Then there are the Wal Mart bait knives that look like Mora knives. Lower cost and terrible steel. Cheap and likely to cause you an injury when they break. Or, Ruger as the lower cost, and Llama as cheap. Cheap is not any bargain. An Uncle bought a Llama Comanche .357 back in the 70s. Factory new it had one chamber in the cylinder that was mis-aligned and would spit lead to the right, and another cylinder left cases bulged. I have known very few people who liked the Llama pistols.

Jim T and most others with tons more experience than I have are sure to have seen more examples than that.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Here’s one to look at, ponder.

It is not possible to get that case out of the gun with the recoil shield attached to the primer/cartridge case. Can't happen. The little bugger is staked in place with a tool that comes in through the barrel or through the threaded hole where the barrel goes. Colt doesn't use a pin to hold it in. I usually just use a little no. 75 Loctite and a center punch. It happens often enough that I keep a couple of spares in my SAA parts box.

I'm not saying Colt never did a retaining pin but I have never seen a colt SAA with one. I too keep replacement bushing for SAA's. The ones I have are just not thick enough for a pin. They came from Dixie BTW and I've only seen the one staked-in version. I've used them in Colt and I've actully drilled the Uberti's and ASM's to accept them, too. The Pietta's already hve them

The Ruger on the other hand, with their frame mounted firing pin are pinned. It's actually a cup with a return spring

[JimT]

Here’s one to look at, ponder.

It is not possible to get that case out of the gun with the recoil shield attached to the primer/cartridge case. Can't happen. The little bugger is staked in place with a tool that comes in through the barrel or through the threaded hole where the barrel goes. Colt doesn't use a pin to hold it in. I usually just use a little no. 75 Loctite and a center punch. It happens often enough that I keep a couple of spares in my SAA parts box.

I'm not saying Colt never did a retaining pin but I have never seen a colt SAA with one. I too keep replacement bushing for SAA's. The ones I have are just not thick enough for a pin. They came from Dixie BTW and I've only seen the one staked-in version. I've used them in Colt and I've actully drilled the Uberti's and ASM's to accept them, too. The Pietta's already hve them

The Ruger on the other hand, with their frame mounted firing pin are pinned. It's actually a cup with a return spring

Thank you sir. I have pulled the bushings from Rugers but never from a Colt SAA. I appreciate the correction from MM Wright and yourself.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I would add, this bushing/plate is the primary reason not to dry-fire SAA's. Unlike the earlier penciled firing pins that are hard mounted in the hammer the later contoured firing pins free float and when dry fired they tend to loosen even more, sometimes enough to knock the recoil bushing/plate loose. Snap-caps and primers prevent them from slamming forwards enough to loosen the recoil plate.

On a side note, I haven’t found historic evidence to prove my theory, but the time line seems to suggest, Colt stopped using the penciled firing pins and went to the plate and contoured FP version we know today because the ammo changed. Early 45 Colt ammo was Benet internally primed. (many times mistaken as rim fire) So, the larger firing pin hole needed for the pencil FP was not a problem because the primers being internal, didn’t move back locking the gun up. Also, I suspect many of the older guns got recoil plates added once the boxer primed ammo was more common.

[JimT]

I have never had a recoil bushing problem in the Colts, but then I have not hot-rodded them either.

In the Ruger Blackhawk, as I said earlier, when developing the 300 gr. heavy loads the primer battered the recoil bushing to where it locked the firing pin in the full forward position. The bushing itself was soft. I still have it .. been in my "stuff" since the 1980's. You can see how the primer set back into the bushing and battered it.

IMG_2326.JPG

IMG_2327.JPG

[piller]

Those must have been some heavy loads, Jim. Just a guess, but they probably delivered some real power on target. This thread gave me more knowledge about watching out for the bushing issue than I probably would have received any other way. I sometimes run my big bore revolvers up to max power with heavy for caliber bullets. While it probably is not enough total times for the battering to occur, I will keep an eye on the bushings.

[Old Savage]

The gun in question here is indeed a Colt 1999 PRCA Legend.

[JimT]

Those must have been some heavy loads, Jim. Just a guess, but they probably delivered some real power on target. This thread gave me more knowledge about watching out for the bushing issue than I probably would have received any other way. I sometimes run my big bore revolvers up to max power with heavy for caliber bullets. While it probably is not enough total times for the battering to occur, I will keep an eye on the bushings.

We ran the loads through the pressure barrel at Hodgdon's and none were at .44 Magnum pressures. All were within a safe range of the .45 Ruger Blackhawk. I have shot them in other Blackhawks and not had that issue. I think .. not sure .. but I think it was just a soft bushing. Like I said, the replacement has been in the gun since the 1980's and has shown no sign of problems.