Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
"I believe this non head stamped cartridge to be the often discussed but seldom seen .44-40 Extra Long. Several of the standard references over the years pictured this cartridge, but none provided much information on what firearm it was intended for. Robert Buttweiller sold quite a few of these in his auctions, and usually mentioned in his catalog descriptions the lack of definitive information on the firearm and the maker. However, in his Collector's Ammunition volume XI, number 2 (November 30, 1996) he lists a cartridge that matches the one pictured here, and mentions in the description a recently unearthed UMC journal, in which there is an entry dated May 1888 for a .44-50 center fire Spencer. It was described as a .44 Winchester with a case 1/4" longer than standard, 50 grains of powder, and a regular 200 grain bullet seated and crimped the same as for the Winchester. This cartridge seems to fit the description of the UMC .44 Spencer CF, with a case that measures about .26" longer than the .44-40 case and a .44-40 style bullet."
The dimensions are as follows:
bullet - .434"
neck - .441"
base - .466"
rim - 1.573"
case - 1.573
overall - 1.842"
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
As the good book says...
There's nothing new under the sun.
Magnumitis was going on even back in the holy black only days
It is an awesome looking little round.
I sure wouldn't mind playing with it.
I wonder if they did something different with the rifling for this .44-50? I suspect the .45-60 had already gained acceptance for those wishing for a median power cartridge... and UMC didn't see it going anywhere near "up" in the sales charts...
rjohns94 wrote:Kewl. Learn something every day
But, yea verily!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
I spent many a cold winter night looking at the old and obsolete cartridges section of COTW and realizing its been done already and alot, not only here; but over in Europe as well.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."
I might be paraphrasing a little bit!
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."
I might be paraphrasing a little bit!
Well done, I like that.
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums.
Old Savage wrote:But when the Good Book said that there was no 44-40.
"Before I cast thee in the mould I knew thee; and before thou camest forth in brass I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a king among .44 caliber rounds. And set thee a place in the most high of fast handling lever actions."
I might be paraphrasing a little bit!
Well done, I like that.
No doubt that will show up on some signature lines in BP cartridge forums.
Thanks! I'm glad you got a kick out of it.
Profanity is a poor substitute for a proper education.
The original posting mentioned the reference found in a UMC Journal of 1888. I did some searching on this and found that it was in regards to some samples made up by UMC and sent to Spencer. Apparently that was the end of it and Spencer found no need to produce rifles for it. It turns out that I have a Frank Wesson 2-Trigger rifle for which I have been making 44-40 Extra Long cases using 444 Marlin brass and 44-40 reloading dies and fire forming. My rifle dates between 1872 and roughly 1875 or 1876. This gives credence to the "44-40 Extra Long" ammo examples with no headstamp actually being 44-40 Extra Long. I am attempting to find an example of this old ammo to compare with my chamber. Any help would be appreciated.
It's confusing because there is also a ".44 XL" which is a .44 WCF with an elongated neck area that was originally loaded with birdshot and is thought by some to be the ancestor of the .410 shotshell. I've seen them in break action Stevens and H&R single shot shotguns, but the most interesting one is the Stevens "Model 101," which is a Stevens "Crackshot" breakopen rifle but smoothbore barreled for the ".44 XL Shot" and so marked. The .44 XL was also sometimes loaded with a single .44 lead ball. I've also seen Stevens Model 44 single shots barreled for this ctg.
I read the U.S. Army was also testing a .43 cartridge along side the 45*70. It looked alot like the .444 Marlin. I can oy wonder what would have done to change hustory!
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Cranker, good heavens, man, let us see some photos of your Wesson rifle -- and some targets!
Todd, it is a lot of fun to read COTW and dream. The Obsolete American chapter is my favorite.
Received a U.M.C. cartridge today headstamped .44-40 which matched my chamber cast. Also in the first pic are 2 cases as made from 444 Marlin cut to 1.6 inches and full length sized in a 44-40 WCF die with no decapper in it. They have yet to be fire formed. The second pic is my Frank Wesson. The rear sight is folded down for cleaning access.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
