Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Pete44ru
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11242
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am

Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Pete44ru »

.

The pics tell the tale, with factory/commercial ammo:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... day-Kaboom


.
Last edited by Pete44ru on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by J Miller »

Double or more powder charge. Last time I saw a .45 Colt cylinder blown like that the cause was a double charge of Bullseye.
Gun owner needs to contact the ammo maker first then Cimmarron.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Ray »

There was once an incident at the clarkesville arkansas gathering with a 4" s & w mdl. 29.....it was thought that bullseye had been used in a load meant for 2400.....the gun was destroyed and shooter had to go to the e.r.

As for the link to the other forum, I read or at least skimmed all 7 pages and came to the conclusion that they have more than their fair share of ballisticians.....
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31932
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by AJMD429 »

Glad nobody was hurt.

I'm betting the New Shooter won't stick with the hobby after that experience.... :shock:

This part is sad but probably true:

"As I am the one who also blew up my uberiti 45 lc I can tell you what you need to do.

Call uberiti open a ticket. The will want the firearm back for inspection.

The will open the box call you two seconds later and tell you to call the ammunition manufacturer. Write unsafe to fire o. The barrel and send it back to you.

They WILL NOT do anything else unless you send them a letter head from a lawyer.

If you happen to know one....

The Ammo factory will tell you to call the fire arm manufacturer and tell you that that gun uberiti/ cimmeron is not safe to fire modern ammo. Black powder loads only. After all they are replicas.

Mark my words

If you dont happen to be a lawyer or have one willing to do you a solid they are just going to ignore you till you go away
"

....reminds me of computers....software blames hardware and hardware blames software.... :|
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by earlmck »

I have made several "ooops's" in my reloading career. Fortunately never damaged the gun. But in every one of mine the primer pocket was enlarged dramatically and the primer long gone. So I am very interested that the primer is merely protruding out the back of the primer pocket of the subject cartridge but apparently still held by some tension.

So how would we be able to tell whether it was a dramatic overcharge of the cartridge producing high pressure and blowing out the cylinder wall, or whether some fault in the metal allowed things to come unglued at normal pressure? If I had that material in hand the first thing I would want to do is see how much pressure was required to seat a new primer in the primer pocket of the blown case. If that primer pocket is still unenlarged I would be placing my blame on the metal of the revolver; if the primer goes in with mere thumb pressure I'd go with overcharge. But I don't know if you can tell the difference just by looking at the pictures.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16686
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Old Savage »

Saw a Marlin 45-70 once ripped apart by what you might call a stall. Kicked the bullet part way down the barrel before the main part of the charge went off.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
User avatar
wvfarrier
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:27 am
Location: West (by GOD) Virginia

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by wvfarrier »

Ive read a couple other "incidents" over the past couple years involving Precision One ammo. Granted, anything you read online must be scrutinized. I purchased some of their 45-70 ammo before reading the stories. In the interest of caution i weighed every round in the 4 boxes i had and got some significant discrepancies in total weight, pulled some apart and two (out of 20) had less than 10 grains (if i remember correctly) of powder in them. Some of the others were off by 4 to grains. I contacted them and they refunded me the entire purchase even for the box i messed with but would not take that box back (understandable). I just disassembled them and reloaded properly.
A bondservant of our Lord, Christ Jesus
jnyork
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Wyoming and Arizona

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by jnyork »

I have no idea if this was an overcharge or not, but it sure would seem to be the most likely culprit.

Over 60 years ago , a local gunsmith was teaching my father and I about reloading. He stressed to us that we should NEVER shoot anyone else's reloads or reload for anyone else. I have strictly adhered to that plan ever since and glad I did. I also have never shot any "off-brand" ammo manufactured by reloading used brass and glad for it. With the exception of .22 rimfire, I have not purchased or shot any factory ammo at all for probably 40 years, reloaded my own the whole while.
Ray Newman
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: Between No Where & No Place, WA

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Ray Newman »

These threads about .45 Colt revolvers disassembling themselves was what made me load with Trail Boss powder as a double charge of Trail Boss will overflow the case.

Before Rail Boss, I was always a bit paranoid about the double charge and checked and rechecked my loads and probably was the reason why I did not shot my .45 Colts often. Some of Fellow Shooters laugh at the load, but it does not take too much energy to kill a piece of paper. Cannot recall the exact charge, but it will push a 250 grain at about 650 FPS. Like I said, enough to kill a piece of paper as well as keeping the revolver intact....
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are just about done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
Grand Poo Bah WA F.E.S.

In real life may you be the bad butt that you claim to be on social media.
buckeyeshooter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1253
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by buckeyeshooter »

You folks make me happy that I shoot large frame Vaqueros in 45 colt and have had new cylinders made in a set of 44 mags for 44-40's. Not that a Ruger is impossible to blow up, but alot harder than a colt or colt repro.
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by J Miller »

Uberti's and other Colt sized .45s are not week or prone to failure. That revolver in the first post was destroyed by faulty ammo. Look close and you'll see just how clean the burn marks are, no soot, no kernels of powder, no residue of any kind really. That was a major overload. It's not a what powder was used, it's how much. At least a double charge of fast burning powder did that. Faulty ammo.

I've been loading the .45 Colt for almost 50 years and have used everything from Bullseye to 2F black and if the loader pays attention this will never happen. My favorite load is 7.1 grs of Win 231, and that charge doesn't even come close to filling up the case. No problems at all.

As for Rugers, you can blow them up too, it just takes takes more.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by JimT »

I've seen all kinds blow up ... 1911's .. Colt's & reproductions of Colt .. Ruger's ... S&W .. in over 60 years of shooting. Never blew one up myself for which I thank the Good Lord.

I was at Clarksville when the S&W .44 Magnum blew up. I was standing between the shooter (who was not injured) and the the guy who was hit by part of the cylinder. It embedded in his right forearm. He was taken to the hospital where it was removed. It was a full cylinder-length long piece a little less than 1/2" wide. It went to the bone in his forearm about halfway between the wrist and elbow.

The shooter had been loading 2400 and wanted some lighter loads so he switched to a faster powder but forgot to weigh and change the powder measure. It was like a hand grenade going off. Some of the pieces of the cylinder actually cut the metal table leg that I was standing at. Pieces of the cylinder went out both sides. Thankfully no one else was hit.

I have seen Uberti's blown like the gun in the video. Once it was two bullets loaded into one cartridge. They weighed the rest of the ammo and found at least one other one that was that way. I have never seen a bullet lodged in the barrel blow a sixgun. I was on the range when a guy shooting a .44 Magnum had a squib and fired a full magnum up behind it. Bulged the barrel very badly but it did not blow the gun. I also saw that happen with a 45 Colt and a 357 Magnum and they did not blow. I ain't saying it cannot happen. I have just never seen it.

Some kids brought me a Colt Gold Cup 1911 that was locked up. Finally got it apart and they had bulged the barrel into the slide by shooting it after a bullet stopped in the bore. My dad turned the bulge down on the barrel, we reassembled the gun and it would still shoot into 2" at 25 yards, even with the big oversize spot in the middle of the bore.
Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Pisgah »

I won't say that a metal flaw didn't cause this gun to disintegrate at normal pressures; humans manufacture things, and humans can screw up. But I would be surprised if a close metallurgic examination of it didn't show a drastically overpressure load was the cause. I have seen that sort of destruction many times -- thankfully, never with one of my guns or loads -- and an overcharge simply has to be the prime suspect until conclusively proven otherwise. I'm certainly not going to shy away from shooting my Uberti Flat Top Target .45 because of this example.
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by Ray »

JimT wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:39 am

I was at Clarksville when the S&W .44 Magnum blew up. I was standing between the shooter (who was not injured) and the the guy who was hit by part of the cylinder. It embedded in his right forearm. He was taken to the hospital where it was removed. It was a full cylinder-length long piece a little less than 1/2" wide. It went to the bone in his forearm about halfway between the wrist and elbow.

The shooter had been loading 2400 and wanted some lighter loads so he switched to a faster powder but forgot to weigh and change the powder measure. It was like a hand grenade going off. Some of the pieces of the cylinder actually cut the metal table leg that I was standing at. Pieces of the cylinder went out both sides. Thankfully no one else was hit.

thanks for correcting my inaccurate narrative......

I had misremembered that it was Hoot who was shooting Murph's revolver and loads.....
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by JimT »

Ray wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:12 am I had misremembered that it was Hoot who was shooting Murph's revolver and loads.....
No problem Ray. The older I get the more I misremember things! It's good that I wrote a lot of stuff down when it happened. I go back and read those old notes and think, "That ain't the way I remember it!"

Murph was devastated by the blowup. When it happened he knew the mistake he made. Hoot was laying on the ground and I knelt down with everyone and while they gave him first aid I prayed for him. Later his wife came back to the motel and showed us the piece of cylinder they took out of his arm.

The last time I saw Hoot a few years ago he was doing OK but had some lingering issues in his forearm.

I have been present at several other blowups and never saw anyone hurt, thankfully. A testimony to God's grace and the design and strength of most guns.
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

Post by piller »

I have done some reloading, but I am still pretty much a beginner at it. I use only published load recipes from reputable and ewell established companies. I did once pull about 50 rounds because I was distracted by something even more important and I had forgotten what recipe had been used. I pulled the lot and used powder out of a factory can. I just wasn't sure and there was no need to assume that I had been right without making the final check of reading the can and the scale and the recipe. No Kabooms yet from my reloading. I plan on keeping it that way.

I once bought some Houaton Cartridge Company loads at a gun show. They were 9mm. My old Ruger P85 was firing them without any issue. I decided to try my daughter's Kahr. It came apart. I sent it kack to Kahr and they fixed it. They said that the cartridges were severely over pressure. I still had a few of those rounds, and I disassembled them and burned the powder. I reloaded them and had no more issues. I had to buy a set of dies for 9mm. I hadn't been bothering to save 9mm brass due to availability and low cost. While at the range, I did get curious after the Kahr came apart in my hand. I looked around and most of the brass from what I had been firing was mangled. It looked as if it had been ripped apart, and the primers were blown out of most of the pieces. The Kahr is designed to come apart in that situation, kind of like how a race car comes apart to shift the main impact away from the driver. I was not injured. When cleaning the Ruger, it was full of little chips of brass. Not shavings. Chips.

Houston Cartridge Company never did respond to my emails.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Post Reply